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MKnight82


Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Yeah, I realize that, which is fine. I think Breeland is a good corner who still has untapped potential to become a #1 type someday. I think Dunny is an unfinished product for sure who can improve. Fuller didn't even have an offseason as a rookie last year because he was coming off a knee injury from colleg and again he was just a rookie last year, no doubt in my mind he has starter potential. If it wasn't for his knee injury in 2015 @ Va Tech, most scouts and teams believe he would have been a late 1st round or early 2nd round pick.

So, why draft another corner who's basically going to be equivalent to what you have in Breeland and Fuller?

It just doesn't make much sense to me at this point. If Breeland is gone next year then Fuller can start and we can draft a corner in the 2018 draft. That seems like the smarter route to take to me.
Because Breeland isn't worth extending IMO. He's too inconsistent, so I would let him leave after this season. And you need 3-4 good CBs (we would be down to Norman, an unknown Fuller, and Dunbar who's more of a 4-5 CB type not a starter). You just argued in the post before this that you would be for us drafting a 3rd safety, and somehow making that work, but you're against adding a CB that will actually see the field. That makes no sense to me.
I think you sell Breeland short and Fuller's potential, that's our fundamental different. Breeland started the season off slow last year but after that when he played on the outside he had a good year. Breeland is still young, he has a lot of untapped potential. I think he'll continue to get better and we'd be making a mistake and creating an unnecessary hole on our defense if we don't retain him.

I've never been a fan of creating a hole on the team when you already have a starter you can rely on, especially when they're young. And I have a hard time taking anyone seriously who thinks that Breeland won't continue to improve and that we can't rely on him as a starter. He's already proven we can rely on him as a Starter since the day we drafted him.
You're ignoring Breeland's contract status. If we had him on 3 more years of a rookie deal I would agree with you. His inconsistent play has not warranted an expensive contract extension.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Yeah, I realize that, which is fine. I think Breeland is a good corner who still has untapped potential to become a #1 type someday. I think Dunny is an unfinished product for sure who can improve. Fuller didn't even have an offseason as a rookie last year because he was coming off a knee injury from colleg and again he was just a rookie last year, no doubt in my mind he has starter potential. If it wasn't for his knee injury in 2015 @ Va Tech, most scouts and teams believe he would have been a late 1st round or early 2nd round pick.

So, why draft another corner who's basically going to be equivalent to what you have in Breeland and Fuller?

It just doesn't make much sense to me at this point. If Breeland is gone next year then Fuller can start and we can draft a corner in the 2018 draft. That seems like the smarter route to take to me.
Because Breeland isn't worth extending IMO. He's too inconsistent, so I would let him leave after this season. And you need 3-4 good CBs (we would be down to Norman, an unknown Fuller, and Dunbar who's more of a 4-5 CB type not a starter). You just argued in the post before this that you would be for us drafting a 3rd safety, and somehow making that work, but you're against adding a CB that will actually see the field. That makes no sense to me.
I think you sell Breeland short and Fuller's potential, that's our fundamental different. Breeland started the season off slow last year but after that when he played on the outside he had a good year. Breeland is still young, he has a lot of untapped potential. I think he'll continue to get better and we'd be making a mistake and creating an unnecessary hole on our defense if we don't retain him.

I've never been a fan of creating a hole on the team when you already have a starter you can rely on, especially when they're young. And I have a hard time taking anyone seriously who thinks that Breeland won't continue to improve and that we can't rely on him as a starter. He's already proven we can rely on him as a Starter since the day we drafted him.
You're ignoring Breeland's contract status. If we had him on 3 more years of a rookie deal I would agree with you. His inconsistent play has not warranted an expensive contract extension.
You are assuming he's going to be expensive and get paid like a #1 corner, I'm not assuming that. I'm assuming he probably stays about even and will get paid like a #2, so we can disagree about his cost on the open market as well.

And again, if he's gone next offseason then we'll just draft another corner in the 2018 draft and that player will compete with Fuller to be our starter opposite Norman.

I think you are more or less searching for an answer to a problem that hasn't arisen yet rather than wanting to address the current problems we have. Corner is just not an immediate need for this defense. It may be next year, but it isn't now. The front 7 is still more of an immediate need than any other part of the team even when you throw in our 3 free agent signings.
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Yeah, I realize that, which is fine. I think Breeland is a good corner who still has untapped potential to become a #1 type someday. I think Dunny is an unfinished product for sure who can improve. Fuller didn't even have an offseason as a rookie last year because he was coming off a knee injury from colleg and again he was just a rookie last year, no doubt in my mind he has starter potential. If it wasn't for his knee injury in 2015 @ Va Tech, most scouts and teams believe he would have been a late 1st round or early 2nd round pick.

So, why draft another corner who's basically going to be equivalent to what you have in Breeland and Fuller?

It just doesn't make much sense to me at this point. If Breeland is gone next year then Fuller can start and we can draft a corner in the 2018 draft. That seems like the smarter route to take to me.
Because Breeland isn't worth extending IMO. He's too inconsistent, so I would let him leave after this season. And you need 3-4 good CBs (we would be down to Norman, an unknown Fuller, and Dunbar who's more of a 4-5 CB type not a starter). You just argued in the post before this that you would be for us drafting a 3rd safety, and somehow making that work, but you're against adding a CB that will actually see the field. That makes no sense to me.
I think you sell Breeland short and Fuller's potential, that's our fundamental different. Breeland started the season off slow last year but after that when he played on the outside he had a good year. Breeland is still young, he has a lot of untapped potential. I think he'll continue to get better and we'd be making a mistake and creating an unnecessary hole on our defense if we don't retain him.

I've never been a fan of creating a hole on the team when you already have a starter you can rely on, especially when they're young. And I have a hard time taking anyone seriously who thinks that Breeland won't continue to improve and that we can't rely on him as a starter. He's already proven we can rely on him as a Starter since the day we drafted him.
You're ignoring Breeland's contract status. If we had him on 3 more years of a rookie deal I would agree with you. His inconsistent play has not warranted an expensive contract extension.
You are assuming he's going to be expensive and get paid like a #1 corner, I'm not assuming that. I'm assuming he probably stays about even and will get paid like a #2, so we can disagree about his cost on the open market as well.

And again, if he's gone next offseason then we'll just draft another corner in the 2018 draft and that player will compete with Fuller to be our starter opposite Norman.

I think you are more or less searching for an answer to a problem that hasn't arisen yet rather than wanting to address the current problems we have. Corner is just not an immediate need for this defense. It may be next year, but it isn't now. The front 7 is still more of an immediate need than any other part of the team even when you throw in our 3 free agent signings.
Drafting for immediate needs is a bad plan for the draft. I would love to draft a Dlineman at 17, unfortunately this draft doesn't have any worth taking there (that will be available).
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll repost this part of my 3rd to last post again because in not sure if you saw it because I was editing that post while you were writing your next post.

The reason I think taking a safety at some point has more value than corner is because:

1. We have less talent at safety - especially depth - and we have questiomarks still at the position besides Swearinger and you could even argue he's a questiomark because he only had one good year and that was in a contract year.

2. As you and everyone always says, the NFL is a passing league now and because of that many safeties are playing nickel/dime ILB so, getting another talented guy who could do that would really help out our defensive coverage against slot corners and tight ends. It would also improve the speed, range and tackling of our defense when we are in those looks.

So to me, where we have an issue is more at ILB/S in the nickel/dime look rather than corner. We have talent, coverage ability and speed issues when we go into our nickel/dime defense from the ILB & S positions. Drafting a safety whether that be Peppers, Baker, Williams, King, Maye, Evans, or Jones in rounds 1 through 4 will help our nickel/dime defense out immensely which, is the defense we spend 3/4 of the game playing.
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
I'll repost this part of my 3rd to last post again because in not sure if you saw it because I was editing that post while you were writing your next post.

The reason I think taking a safety at some point has more value than corner is because:

1. We have less talent at safety - especially depth - and we have questiomarks still at the position besides Swearinger and you could even argue he's a questiomark because he only had one good year and that was in a contract year.

2. As you and everyone always says, the NFL is a passing league now and because of that many safeties are playing nickel/dime ILB so, getting another talented guy who could do that would really help out our defensive coverage against slot corners and tight ends. It would also improve the speed, range and tackling of our defense when we are in those looks.

So to me, where we have an issue is more at ILB/S in the nickel/dime look rather than corner. We have talent, coverage ability and speed issues when we go into our nickel/dime defense from the ILB & S positions. Drafting a safety whether that be Peppers, Baker, Williams, King, Maye, Evans, or Jones in rounds 1 through 4 will help our nickel/dime defense out immensely which, is the defense we spend 3/4 of the game playing.
I'm totally fine drafting a 3rd or 4th round FS (I think taking another SS would probably be a waste). With Swearinger and Cravens slotted in at the two starting spots, I don't see how taking a safety in Round 1 would work as they would need to start. Round 2 maybe, only if its someone like Budda Baker who can also play the slot. Essentially that 2nd round safety would be playing some CB.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
Drafting for immediate needs is a bad plan for the draft. I would love to draft a Dlineman at 17, unfortunately this draft doesn't have any worth taking there (that will be available).
Malik McDowell says hi. He has top 10 talent and most big boards have him around our selection within 5 picks - I know Drafttek does.

By the way, I couldn't sleep last night so I was flipping through the channels and ended up seeing that a Michigan State vs Indiana game was on tv at 1:00 am on the Big 10 network. Malik McDowell was healthy and played in the game. He was unblockable all game long from his LDT position. I'm not sure if Dan Freeney was the one trying to block him, but McDowell abused whomever it was all game long.
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Drafting for immediate needs is a bad plan for the draft. I would love to draft a Dlineman at 17, unfortunately this draft doesn't have any worth taking there (that will be available).
Malik McDowell says hi. He has top 10 talent and most big boards have him around our selection within 5 picks - I know Drafttek does.

By the way, I couldn't sleep last night so I was flipping through the channels and ended up seeing that a Michigan State vs Indiana game was on tv at 1:00 am on the Big 10 network. Malik McDowell was healthy and played in the game. He was unblockable all game long from his LDT position. I'm not sure if Dan Freeney was the one trying to block him, but McDowell abused whomever it was all game long.
I think McDowell will bust and hope we don't select him.
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Dashing


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We need a cornerback .
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
I'll repost this part of my 3rd to last post again because in not sure if you saw it because I was editing that post while you were writing your next post.

The reason I think taking a safety at some point has more value than corner is because:

1. We have less talent at safety - especially depth - and we have questiomarks still at the position besides Swearinger and you could even argue he's a questiomark because he only had one good year and that was in a contract year.

2. As you and everyone always says, the NFL is a passing league now and because of that many safeties are playing nickel/dime ILB so, getting another talented guy who could do that would really help out our defensive coverage against slot corners and tight ends. It would also improve the speed, range and tackling of our defense when we are in those looks.

So to me, where we have an issue is more at ILB/S in the nickel/dime look rather than corner. We have talent, coverage ability and speed issues when we go into our nickel/dime defense from the ILB & S positions. Drafting a safety whether that be Peppers, Baker, Williams, King, Maye, Evans, or Jones in rounds 1 through 4 will help our nickel/dime defense out immensely which, is the defense we spend 3/4 of the game playing.
I'm totally fine drafting a 3rd or 4th round FS (I think taking another SS would probably be a waste). With Swearinger and Cravens slotted in at the two starting spots, I don't see how taking a safety in Round 1 would work as they would need to start. Round 2 maybe, only if its someone like Budda Baker who can also play the slot. Essentially that 2nd round safety would be playing some CB.
Why does a safety we take in round 1 need to start but any other position we select doesn't need to?

Last year we took a wr who we all knew wasn't going to start. If we take a corner there's a question as to if they play over Breeland and Fuller right away and you are ok with that because we are possibly planning ahead a year assuming we lose Breeland. If we take a corner round 1 that guy may end up being our #4 corner.

You mention Baker and his ability to play the slot but you are totally ignoring Peppers's ability to be a better version of a Kyshoen Jarrett type player for us who can play both safety positions, has played both corner positions in college and has played Lb as well.

How do you say Baker is versatile but then overlook Peppers's versatility to play every position on our defense except along the DL or 3-4 OLB?

That's a head scratcher to me... Confused

We also currently have more depth at FS than SS.

For SS we have Cravens and who's our back up?

At FS we have Swearinger (slated as the starter). Then, we have Hall, Blackmon and Everett all on the roster.

Now, there's a question as to if all 3 will be on the team in September but right now they are.

I'm pretty sure Everett could play SS because of his toughness, size and tackling ability but we all know Hall wasn't good in the box at SS in 2015 and I don't think Blackmon would be any better.

I'm not saying Peppers is my first choice, but he may be the most talented defensive player available when we pick. I think Lamp is surely more of a reach than McDowell, Peppers or the LBs at 17. I'd hope we take the defensive player if this scenario plays out.
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lavar703


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dashing wrote:
We need a cornerback .


No we don't. Norman, Breeland, Fuller and Dunbar are just fine. If we can get any pressure up front they will play much better.
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lavar703


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Drafting for immediate needs is a bad plan for the draft. I would love to draft a Dlineman at 17, unfortunately this draft doesn't have any worth taking there (that will be available).
Malik McDowell says hi. He has top 10 talent and most big boards have him around our selection within 5 picks - I know Drafttek does.

By the way, I couldn't sleep last night so I was flipping through the channels and ended up seeing that a Michigan State vs Indiana game was on tv at 1:00 am on the Big 10 network. Malik McDowell was healthy and played in the game. He was unblockable all game long from his LDT position. I'm not sure if Dan Freeney was the one trying to block him, but McDowell abused whomever it was all game long.
I think McDowell will bust and hope we don't select him.


I agree. I'd rather take my chances with Monty Adams in the second round than McDowell in the first.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lavar703 wrote:
Dashing wrote:
We need a cornerback .


No we don't. Norman, Breeland, Fuller and Dunbar are just fine. If we can get any pressure up front they will play much better.
On top of that currently we still have Blackmon and Hall who were starting corners in the NFL up until they tried to transition to safety.

We're loaded with experience and youth at corner. IMO it's literally the position we need least in the team.

I have no problem with taking a corner to develop in the mid to late rounds, but in round 1 or 2? I'll pass. Give me the front 7 defender who has a good chance of starting day 1 and if not him, we could still use good depth at safety. SS depth is an issue for the team right now given the questions surrounding Cravens ability to play safety and we don't have any depth behind him.
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Last edited by turtle28 on Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Drafting for immediate needs is a bad plan for the draft. I would love to draft a Dlineman at 17, unfortunately this draft doesn't have any worth taking there (that will be available).
Malik McDowell says hi. He has top 10 talent and most big boards have him around our selection within 5 picks - I know Drafttek does.

By the way, I couldn't sleep last night so I was flipping through the channels and ended up seeing that a Michigan State vs Indiana game was on tv at 1:00 am on the Big 10 network. Malik McDowell was healthy and played in the game. He was unblockable all game long from his LDT position. I'm not sure if Dan Freeney was the one trying to block him, but McDowell abused whomever it was all game long.
I think McDowell will bust and hope we don't select him.
Wish you could have watched what I watched last night, damn was he dominant!
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lavar703 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Drafting for immediate needs is a bad plan for the draft. I would love to draft a Dlineman at 17, unfortunately this draft doesn't have any worth taking there (that will be available).
Malik McDowell says hi. He has top 10 talent and most big boards have him around our selection within 5 picks - I know Drafttek does.

By the way, I couldn't sleep last night so I was flipping through the channels and ended up seeing that a Michigan State vs Indiana game was on tv at 1:00 am on the Big 10 network. Malik McDowell was healthy and played in the game. He was unblockable all game long from his LDT position. I'm not sure if Dan Freeney was the one trying to block him, but McDowell abused whomever it was all game long.
I think McDowell will bust and hope we don't select him.


I agree. I'd rather take my chances with Monty Adams in the second round than McDowell in the first.
I'm not sure how taking the less talented player a round later is a better alternative than taking a player with top 10 talent who could fall to us in round 1. Confused

Adams has the same consistently question marks as Mcdowell does, so does Brantley, Wormley and the other DT's slated to get drafted after McDowell. The difference between them and McDowell is that McDowell has top 10 talent and they don't.
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
lavar703 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Drafting for immediate needs is a bad plan for the draft. I would love to draft a Dlineman at 17, unfortunately this draft doesn't have any worth taking there (that will be available).
Malik McDowell says hi. He has top 10 talent and most big boards have him around our selection within 5 picks - I know Drafttek does.

By the way, I couldn't sleep last night so I was flipping through the channels and ended up seeing that a Michigan State vs Indiana game was on tv at 1:00 am on the Big 10 network. Malik McDowell was healthy and played in the game. He was unblockable all game long from his LDT position. I'm not sure if Dan Freeney was the one trying to block him, but McDowell abused whomever it was all game long.
I think McDowell will bust and hope we don't select him.


I agree. I'd rather take my chances with Monty Adams in the second round than McDowell in the first.
I'm not sure how taking the less talented player a round later is a better alternative than taking a player with top 10 talent who could fall to us in round 1. Confused

Adams has the same consistently question marks as Mcdowell does, so does Brantley, Wormley and the other DT's slated to get drafted after McDowell. The difference between them and McDowell is that McDowell has top 10 talent and they don't.
McDowell is not a top 10 talent. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. You are seriously overrating him. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes in the 2nd round.
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