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Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday
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m haynes


Joined: 29 Jan 2011
Posts: 1626
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lancerman wrote:
Now Florio laid out a third option where a third team gets involved.

1. A team with a draft pick somewhere from 20-30 works out an agreement with the Saints where they give Butler an offer for something the Patriots won't match.

2. That team gives a low first round draft pick to the Patriots for Butle.r

3. The Saints trade the 11 to that team in return for Butler and a second round pick.

That is possible.
How would the cap work? There has to be a rule against this. I'm not sure, can they talk about another teams player to set up a trade. The commissioner can he veto this trade? It hurts the team unfairly with the RFA i just read the article and comments IMO they can't do this without a ( charge to the other team involved.) signing bonus. If they don't give one the Pats will just match contract Butler screwed.

Last edited by m haynes on Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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patsfan06


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just don't think the Patriots are going to trade Butler.

They are in the Super Bowl business. Trading your solid, top tier CB who you have under contract for a defacto 2 year, $18M dollar deal for a low 1st just doesn't move the needle.

Especially when you can just let him play on the tender and then franchise him next year and trade him for a 2nd or 3rd at that point and still get value out of him.

I'm sure they'd move him if they got enough value for him sure. They would trade anyone for what they would consider an overpay.
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patsfan06


Joined: 19 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

m haynes wrote:
lancerman wrote:
Now Florio laid out a third option where a third team gets involved.

1. A team with a draft pick somewhere from 20-30 works out an agreement with the Saints where they give Butler an offer for something the Patriots won't match.

2. That team gives a low first round draft pick to the Patriots for Butle.r

3. The Saints trade the 11 to that team in return for Butler and a second round pick.

That is possible.
How would the cap work? There has to be a rule against this. I'm not sure, can they talk about another teams player to set up a trade. The commissioner can he veto this trade? It hurts the team unfairly with the RFA


It is illegal to talk about trading any player not under contract.

Not that, that stops teams nor that it would be punish. But yes, it is against the actual written rules.
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areksoo


Joined: 15 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lancerman wrote:
Now Florio laid out a third option where a third team gets involved.

1. A team with a draft pick somewhere from 20-30 works out an agreement with the Saints where they give Butler an offer for something the Patriots won't match.

2. That team gives a low first round draft pick to the Patriots for Butle.r

3. The Saints trade the 11 to that team in return for Butler and a second round pick.

That is possible.


This scenario doesn't make much sense. They first need to find a team that right now wants to move up in the draft. You get Butler at a very high price just to get more value out of the trade. That high price tag will hurt them more than then getting an extra 2nd round pick. And there's still the risk you don't get him.

One that makes more sense from what we know is something similar to the Welker trade. We know that Butler and the Saints have negotiated. We know that they are close (if not finalized) on a number that both parties are happy with. Clearly this number is something that they feel the Patriots will match. Otherwise, why bother even talking to the Patriots? Just get Butler to sign the tender, then make the offer sheet. Then gamble the Patriots don't match the offer sheet. And what if other teams are interested in Butler?

So this becomes very much like the Welker trade. Refresher: Welker had a 2nd round tender. Pats could have made a massive offer sheet and give up 2nd round pick. Instead worked a deal with Dolphins to trade 2nd and 7th round pick for Welker. Then signed Welker to a team friendly $18 million 5 year deal.

Saints want to talk with the Patriots to remove the risk of not getting Butler. The only snag is Butler needs to sign the tender first. So really the discussion between the Patriots and Saints is how many picks will it take to trade for Butler and avoid the whole offer sheet uncertainty? Since we know anything less than the 11th pick is not something the Patriots will entertain, it has to be something a little extra. For example, 11th overall pick + 7th rounder. Or something a little more creative like 2018 1st, 2017 2nd and 7th (under the assumption that the Saints will improve in 2017). Saints get Butler on a contract that is far more team friendly than an offer so big the Patriots can't match.
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lancerman


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

areksoo wrote:
lancerman wrote:
Now Florio laid out a third option where a third team gets involved.

1. A team with a draft pick somewhere from 20-30 works out an agreement with the Saints where they give Butler an offer for something the Patriots won't match.

2. That team gives a low first round draft pick to the Patriots for Butle.r

3. The Saints trade the 11 to that team in return for Butler and a second round pick.

That is possible.


This scenario doesn't make much sense. They first need to find a team that right now wants to move up in the draft. You get Butler at a very high price just to get more value out of the trade. That high price tag will hurt them more than then getting an extra 2nd round pick. And there's still the risk you don't get him.

One that makes more sense from what we know is something similar to the Welker trade. We know that Butler and the Saints have negotiated. We know that they are close (if not finalized) on a number that both parties are happy with. Clearly this number is something that they feel the Patriots will match. Otherwise, why bother even talking to the Patriots? Just get Butler to sign the tender, then make the offer sheet. Then gamble the Patriots don't match the offer sheet. And what if other teams are interested in Butler?

So this becomes very much like the Welker trade. Refresher: Welker had a 2nd round tender. Pats could have made a massive offer sheet and give up 2nd round pick. Instead worked a deal with Dolphins to trade 2nd and 7th round pick for Welker. Then signed Welker to a team friendly $18 million 5 year deal.

Saints want to talk with the Patriots to remove the risk of not getting Butler. The only snag is Butler needs to sign the tender first. So really the discussion between the Patriots and Saints is how many picks will it take to trade for Butler and avoid the whole offer sheet uncertainty? Since we know anything less than the 11th pick is not something the Patriots will entertain, it has to be something a little extra. For example, 11th overall pick + 7th rounder. Or something a little more creative like 2018 1st, 2017 2nd and 7th (under the assumption that the Saints will improve in 2017). Saints get Butler on a contract that is far more team friendly than an offer so big the Patriots can't match.


No the problem is that if the Saints get Butler to sign an offer sheet all of a sudden their 11th overall is at risk if the Patriots refuse to match in 5 days. A trade would be to offset the cost of the 11th and the cost to get Butler on board.

The best way to ensure Butler goes to the Saints, in all reality is, is to give him a top tier market contract and have him sign the offer. Make it something the Patriots would be hesitant to match and dangle the 11th in their face.
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SWATcha


Joined: 10 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lancerman wrote:
areksoo wrote:
lancerman wrote:
Now Florio laid out a third option where a third team gets involved.

1. A team with a draft pick somewhere from 20-30 works out an agreement with the Saints where they give Butler an offer for something the Patriots won't match.

2. That team gives a low first round draft pick to the Patriots for Butle.r

3. The Saints trade the 11 to that team in return for Butler and a second round pick.

That is possible.


This scenario doesn't make much sense. They first need to find a team that right now wants to move up in the draft. You get Butler at a very high price just to get more value out of the trade. That high price tag will hurt them more than then getting an extra 2nd round pick. And there's still the risk you don't get him.

One that makes more sense from what we know is something similar to the Welker trade. We know that Butler and the Saints have negotiated. We know that they are close (if not finalized) on a number that both parties are happy with. Clearly this number is something that they feel the Patriots will match. Otherwise, why bother even talking to the Patriots? Just get Butler to sign the tender, then make the offer sheet. Then gamble the Patriots don't match the offer sheet. And what if other teams are interested in Butler?

So this becomes very much like the Welker trade. Refresher: Welker had a 2nd round tender. Pats could have made a massive offer sheet and give up 2nd round pick. Instead worked a deal with Dolphins to trade 2nd and 7th round pick for Welker. Then signed Welker to a team friendly $18 million 5 year deal.

Saints want to talk with the Patriots to remove the risk of not getting Butler. The only snag is Butler needs to sign the tender first. So really the discussion between the Patriots and Saints is how many picks will it take to trade for Butler and avoid the whole offer sheet uncertainty? Since we know anything less than the 11th pick is not something the Patriots will entertain, it has to be something a little extra. For example, 11th overall pick + 7th rounder. Or something a little more creative like 2018 1st, 2017 2nd and 7th (under the assumption that the Saints will improve in 2017). Saints get Butler on a contract that is far more team friendly than an offer so big the Patriots can't match.


No the problem is that if the Saints get Butler to sign an offer sheet all of a sudden their 11th overall is at risk if the Patriots refuse to match in 5 days. A trade would be to offset the cost of the 11th and the cost to get Butler on board.

The best way to ensure Butler goes to the Saints, in all reality is, is to give him a top tier market contract and have him sign the offer. Make it something the Patriots would be hesitant to match and dangle the 11th in their face.


Lol @ Pats fans. You guys sure are hung up on that #11 pick aren't you. Butler isn't worth #11, let alone #11 and some more on top of that.
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FrenchWuDat


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

areksoo wrote:
Since we know anything less than the 11th pick is not something the Patriots will entertain, it has to be something a little extra.


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areksoo


Joined: 15 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lancerman wrote:
areksoo wrote:
lancerman wrote:
Now Florio laid out a third option where a third team gets involved.

1. A team with a draft pick somewhere from 20-30 works out an agreement with the Saints where they give Butler an offer for something the Patriots won't match.

2. That team gives a low first round draft pick to the Patriots for Butle.r

3. The Saints trade the 11 to that team in return for Butler and a second round pick.

That is possible.


This scenario doesn't make much sense. They first need to find a team that right now wants to move up in the draft. You get Butler at a very high price just to get more value out of the trade. That high price tag will hurt them more than then getting an extra 2nd round pick. And there's still the risk you don't get him.

One that makes more sense from what we know is something similar to the Welker trade. We know that Butler and the Saints have negotiated. We know that they are close (if not finalized) on a number that both parties are happy with. Clearly this number is something that they feel the Patriots will match. Otherwise, why bother even talking to the Patriots? Just get Butler to sign the tender, then make the offer sheet. Then gamble the Patriots don't match the offer sheet. And what if other teams are interested in Butler?

So this becomes very much like the Welker trade. Refresher: Welker had a 2nd round tender. Pats could have made a massive offer sheet and give up 2nd round pick. Instead worked a deal with Dolphins to trade 2nd and 7th round pick for Welker. Then signed Welker to a team friendly $18 million 5 year deal.

Saints want to talk with the Patriots to remove the risk of not getting Butler. The only snag is Butler needs to sign the tender first. So really the discussion between the Patriots and Saints is how many picks will it take to trade for Butler and avoid the whole offer sheet uncertainty? Since we know anything less than the 11th pick is not something the Patriots will entertain, it has to be something a little extra. For example, 11th overall pick + 7th rounder. Or something a little more creative like 2018 1st, 2017 2nd and 7th (under the assumption that the Saints will improve in 2017). Saints get Butler on a contract that is far more team friendly than an offer so big the Patriots can't match.


No the problem is that if the Saints get Butler to sign an offer sheet all of a sudden their 11th overall is at risk if the Patriots refuse to match in 5 days. A trade would be to offset the cost of the 11th and the cost to get Butler on board.

The best way to ensure Butler goes to the Saints, in all reality is, is to give him a top tier market contract and have him sign the offer. Make it something the Patriots would be hesitant to match and dangle the 11th in their face.


My point is removing the unknown variable what will the Patriots do. How big does this number have to be for the Patriots to not match? They got the cap room, have paid as much as $20 million for a CB and has one guy at $13 million. Making a massive contract is detrimental to your cap. Saints are sitting around 12 to 14 million in cap room. Not much to work with. Making a trade removes not only the need for that massive contract, but also removes any chance of Patriots matching the offer.
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SFPatsFan


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SWATcha wrote:

Lol @ Pats fans. You guys sure are hung up on that #11 pick aren't you. Butler isn't worth #11, let alone #11 and some more on top of that.


I personally don't think they are going to trade Butler and if it was my team I certainly wouldn't give up a high first but at this point I've given up trying to make predictions or pretend I know more than I do. I remember a lot and I mean a lot of Saints fans laughing at the idea of trading Cooks then laughing even harder at the idea of trading him for a low 1st. You guys were soooooooo sure the Titans had offered at least #18 is not more and yet you got basically 32. I doubt Butler is traded but if he is and it's for a 1st between 10-20 it wouldn't even be that surprising to me at this point.
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SWATcha


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFPatsFan wrote:
SWATcha wrote:

Lol @ Pats fans. You guys sure are hung up on that #11 pick aren't you. Butler isn't worth #11, let alone #11 and some more on top of that.


I personally don't think they are going to trade Butler and if it was my team I certainly wouldn't give up a high first but at this point I've given up trying to make predictions or pretend I know more than I do. I remember a lot and I mean a lot of Saints fans laughing at the idea of trading Cooks then laughing even harder at the idea of trading him for a low 1st. You guys were soooooooo sure the Titans had offered at least #18 is not more and yet you got basically 32. I doubt Butler is traded but if he is and it's for a 1st between 10-20 it wouldn't even be that surprising to me at this point.


We're all in the same canoe my friend. None of us know anything about the deals that are/will be done in the NFL. We can only speculate. Cooks is worth a mid/late 1st. Saints don't know how to play hardball though. Beach volleyball is more their speed.

Anyway, all I'm saying is Butler is not worth #11, period. Saints could potentially land a game changer at #11 and have that player on the cheap for 5 years instead of Butler and the huge contract he's going to command. Just makes no sense for the Saints.

Then again, this is the Saints.......<insert pic of Sean Payton missing a tooth with a Spalding welt across his face> "Hey guys! Did you know Bill Belichick played volleyball too?!? We totally got him on this trade!"

#FirePayton
#FireLoomis
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MookieMonster


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm laughing at the Patriots fans who think a 27 year old, almost 28, CB who's due a huge deal is going to get us the #11 overall pick.

Thats just insanity. Unless Mickey Loomis is the worst GM in the league, thats simply not happening. I think the list is very short on players that teams would move a top 13 pick for and I don't think Malcolm Butler is on that list.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MookieMonster wrote:
I'm laughing at the Patriots fans who think a 27 year old, almost 28, CB who's due a huge deal is going to get us the #11 overall pick.

Thats just insanity. Unless Mickey Loomis is the worst GM in the league, thats simply not happening. I think the list is very short on players that teams would move a top 13 pick for and I don't think Malcolm Butler is on that list.


I don't think anyone thinks it's likely - I think it's just the only way things are likely to proceed.
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lancerman


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SWATcha wrote:
lancerman wrote:
areksoo wrote:
lancerman wrote:
Now Florio laid out a third option where a third team gets involved.

1. A team with a draft pick somewhere from 20-30 works out an agreement with the Saints where they give Butler an offer for something the Patriots won't match.

2. That team gives a low first round draft pick to the Patriots for Butle.r

3. The Saints trade the 11 to that team in return for Butler and a second round pick.

That is possible.


This scenario doesn't make much sense. They first need to find a team that right now wants to move up in the draft. You get Butler at a very high price just to get more value out of the trade. That high price tag will hurt them more than then getting an extra 2nd round pick. And there's still the risk you don't get him.

One that makes more sense from what we know is something similar to the Welker trade. We know that Butler and the Saints have negotiated. We know that they are close (if not finalized) on a number that both parties are happy with. Clearly this number is something that they feel the Patriots will match. Otherwise, why bother even talking to the Patriots? Just get Butler to sign the tender, then make the offer sheet. Then gamble the Patriots don't match the offer sheet. And what if other teams are interested in Butler?

So this becomes very much like the Welker trade. Refresher: Welker had a 2nd round tender. Pats could have made a massive offer sheet and give up 2nd round pick. Instead worked a deal with Dolphins to trade 2nd and 7th round pick for Welker. Then signed Welker to a team friendly $18 million 5 year deal.

Saints want to talk with the Patriots to remove the risk of not getting Butler. The only snag is Butler needs to sign the tender first. So really the discussion between the Patriots and Saints is how many picks will it take to trade for Butler and avoid the whole offer sheet uncertainty? Since we know anything less than the 11th pick is not something the Patriots will entertain, it has to be something a little extra. For example, 11th overall pick + 7th rounder. Or something a little more creative like 2018 1st, 2017 2nd and 7th (under the assumption that the Saints will improve in 2017). Saints get Butler on a contract that is far more team friendly than an offer so big the Patriots can't match.


No the problem is that if the Saints get Butler to sign an offer sheet all of a sudden their 11th overall is at risk if the Patriots refuse to match in 5 days. A trade would be to offset the cost of the 11th and the cost to get Butler on board.

The best way to ensure Butler goes to the Saints, in all reality is, is to give him a top tier market contract and have him sign the offer. Make it something the Patriots would be hesitant to match and dangle the 11th in their face.


Lol @ Pats fans. You guys sure are hung up on that #11 pick aren't you. Butler isn't worth #11, let alone #11 and some more on top of that.


I don't want the 111th pick. I want Butler this year. I definitly think Butler this year is more valuable than the 32. So if the Saints want him that bad, then pony up or leave.
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lancerman


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChazStandard wrote:
MookieMonster wrote:
I'm laughing at the Patriots fans who think a 27 year old, almost 28, CB who's due a huge deal is going to get us the #11 overall pick.

Thats just insanity. Unless Mickey Loomis is the worst GM in the league, thats simply not happening. I think the list is very short on players that teams would move a top 13 pick for and I don't think Malcolm Butler is on that list.


I don't think anyone thinks it's likely - I think it's just the only way things are likely to proceed.

This. It's called seeing the forest for the trees. Butler isn't worth the 11 to the Saints, but the 32 isn't worth losing him this season. That Pat's have no incentive to take less when they are in a win-win scenario.
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MookieMonster


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lancerman wrote:
ChazStandard wrote:
MookieMonster wrote:
I'm laughing at the Patriots fans who think a 27 year old, almost 28, CB who's due a huge deal is going to get us the #11 overall pick.

Thats just insanity. Unless Mickey Loomis is the worst GM in the league, thats simply not happening. I think the list is very short on players that teams would move a top 13 pick for and I don't think Malcolm Butler is on that list.


I don't think anyone thinks it's likely - I think it's just the only way things are likely to proceed.

This. It's called seeing the forest for the trees. Butler isn't worth the 11 to the Saints, but the 32 isn't worth losing him this season. That Pat's have no incentive to take less when they are in a win-win scenario.

Incentive to not have a very unhappy CB on the team, and get a first round pick. I see the benefits of keeping Butler, but I'm also well aware he's not going to be pleased if we force him to play this year on a small 1 year deal.

Dudes pretty old, and hasn't exactly cashed out in his short NFL career. This could be his only shot at a big money deal.
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