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Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday
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patman


Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 1495
Location: Tiverton RI
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalton wrote:
If Denver can afford two #1 corners, so can the Pats.


Why? Does denver pay all the other positions the same as the pats?
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Pookie


Joined: 30 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

domepatrol91 wrote:
Pookie wrote:
If this happens, should've just went after Bouye or Gilmore and saved the draft pick.
They were both off the market well before the Saints got the extra 1st..


That's true but if the Saints wanted a corner bad enough to give up a high draft pick and give out a huge contract, why not just go out at the beginning of FA and get a CB that is equal or maybe even better than the one they have to give a pick for. money will probably be close
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BayRaider


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 5224
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalton wrote:
If Denver can afford two #1 corners, so can the Pats.


Are you insinuating Gilmore is a #1 Corner? Ask any Bill fan if they think he's anything close to a #1. He's a slightly above average #2.
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 32060
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BayRaider wrote:
Dalton wrote:
If Denver can afford two #1 corners, so can the Pats.


Are you insinuating Gilmore is a #1 Corner? Ask any Bill fan if they think he's anything close to a #1. He's a slightly above average #2.


Slightly above average #2? Laughing

I'd love to hear your list of 40-45 guys who are better than him.

I don't think any Pats fan would argue that he's a top 10 CB (despite his flashes and possible untapped potential), but "slightly above average #2" is laughable.
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nextsuperstar


Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Posts: 1860
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BayRaider wrote:
Dalton wrote:
If Denver can afford two #1 corners, so can the Pats.


Are you insinuating Gilmore is a #1 Corner? Ask any Bill fan if they think he's anything close to a #1. He's a slightly above average #2.


He is paid like a 1. That's all that matters for purposes of his post (which was about affording both Gillmore and Butler).
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patman


Joined: 02 Jan 2006
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Location: Tiverton RI
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nextsuperstar wrote:
BayRaider wrote:
Dalton wrote:
If Denver can afford two #1 corners, so can the Pats.


Are you insinuating Gilmore is a #1 Corner? Ask any Bill fan if they think he's anything close to a #1. He's a slightly above average #2.


He is paid like a 1. That's all that matters for purposes of his post (which was about affording both Gillmore and Butler).


Again then what is the purpose of the Denver comparison? Teams allocate their resources differently. Every team in the NFL can pay two corners 10mill each it just leaves less money for other guys- such as Malik Jackson, Decker, Travathin, etc
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BayRaider


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
BayRaider wrote:
Dalton wrote:
If Denver can afford two #1 corners, so can the Pats.


Are you insinuating Gilmore is a #1 Corner? Ask any Bill fan if they think he's anything close to a #1. He's a slightly above average #2.


Slightly above average #2? Laughing

I'd love to hear your list of 40-45 guys who are better than him.

I don't think any Pats fan would argue that he's a top 10 CB (despite his flashes and possible untapped potential), but "slightly above average #2" is laughable.


40-45 guys? Are you saying every team has a #1 corner? Just because there is 32 teams doesn't mean there's 32 #1 caliber corners. An extremely flawed viewpoint. Gilmore is probably top 30, barely, but that doesn't make him a #1 corner.
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BayRaider wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
BayRaider wrote:
Dalton wrote:
If Denver can afford two #1 corners, so can the Pats.


Are you insinuating Gilmore is a #1 Corner? Ask any Bill fan if they think he's anything close to a #1. He's a slightly above average #2.


Slightly above average #2? Laughing

I'd love to hear your list of 40-45 guys who are better than him.

I don't think any Pats fan would argue that he's a top 10 CB (despite his flashes and possible untapped potential), but "slightly above average #2" is laughable.


40-45 guys? Are you saying every team has a #1 corner? Just because there is 32 teams doesn't mean there's 32 #1 caliber corners. An extremely flawed viewpoint. Gilmore is probably top 30, barely, but that doesn't make him a #1 corner.


So he would be good enough to be a #1 on a few teams but he's barely above average as a #2?

Laughing

I get what you're saying but if many teams don't have a "#1" by your definition, then the definition is flawed.
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BayRaider


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
BayRaider wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
BayRaider wrote:
Dalton wrote:
If Denver can afford two #1 corners, so can the Pats.


Are you insinuating Gilmore is a #1 Corner? Ask any Bill fan if they think he's anything close to a #1. He's a slightly above average #2.


Slightly above average #2? Laughing

I'd love to hear your list of 40-45 guys who are better than him.

I don't think any Pats fan would argue that he's a top 10 CB (despite his flashes and possible untapped potential), but "slightly above average #2" is laughable.


40-45 guys? Are you saying every team has a #1 corner? Just because there is 32 teams doesn't mean there's 32 #1 caliber corners. An extremely flawed viewpoint. Gilmore is probably top 30, barely, but that doesn't make him a #1 corner.


So he would be good enough to be a #1 on a few teams but he's barely above average as a #2?

Laughing

I get what you're saying but if many teams don't have a "#1" by your definition, then the definition is flawed.


You understand exactly what I am saying. If Tebow is the 32nd starting QB in the NFL is he a #1 caliber QB..? No. Just because there is 32 top corner spots available definitelt does not mean there is 32 caliber #1 corners.
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lancerman


Joined: 06 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nextsuperstar wrote:
Dalton wrote:
If Denver can afford two #1 corners, so can the Pats.


They're paying Talib 12 million. They are paying Harris 9.3 million. Gillmore costs more than that and Butler wants even more.


That and the more significant issue is that the Patriots don't have to pay Butler this year. Someone else if they want him does and that someone else will risk losing a draft pick to get him.

But the Patriots sure as hell don't. So why would they? If they love Butler that much they can franchise him next year, give him the payday he wants and THEN work on a longterm deal while he's making money hand over fist. But why would they willingly give up a free year next year. Make another team break their back to get him.
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wow_junky


Joined: 25 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lancerman wrote:
nextsuperstar wrote:
Dalton wrote:
If Denver can afford two #1 corners, so can the Pats.


They're paying Talib 12 million. They are paying Harris 9.3 million. Gillmore costs more than that and Butler wants even more.


That and the more significant issue is that the Patriots don't have to pay Butler this year. Someone else if they want him does and that someone else will risk losing a draft pick to get him.

But the Patriots sure as hell don't. So why would they? If they love Butler that much they can franchise him next year, give him the payday he wants and THEN work on a longterm deal while he's making money hand over fist. But why would they willingly give up a free year next year. Make another team break their back to get him.


They traded Jones and Collins with cheap playing time still on their contracts. And if they franchise Butler next year then Jimmy G is probably going to test the market. If the Pats want to get value out of Butler (and I'd say they do as they are paying Gilmore top 5 corner money) then now is the time to trade him
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lancerman


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow_junky wrote:
lancerman wrote:
nextsuperstar wrote:
Dalton wrote:
If Denver can afford two #1 corners, so can the Pats.


They're paying Talib 12 million. They are paying Harris 9.3 million. Gillmore costs more than that and Butler wants even more.


That and the more significant issue is that the Patriots don't have to pay Butler this year. Someone else if they want him does and that someone else will risk losing a draft pick to get him.

But the Patriots sure as hell don't. So why would they? If they love Butler that much they can franchise him next year, give him the payday he wants and THEN work on a longterm deal while he's making money hand over fist. But why would they willingly give up a free year next year. Make another team break their back to get him.


They traded Jones and Collins with cheap playing time still on their contracts. And if they franchise Butler next year then Jimmy G is probably going to test the market. If the Pats want to get value out of Butler (and I'd say they do as they are paying Gilmore top 5 corner money) then now is the time to trade him


They knew they could win without Jones. Every season Jones' production falls off a cliff later on. They probably weren't going to reach to resign him with all the other defensive signings they needed to make this year. So they let him go early. They had issues with Collins deviating from his assignments to make plays and he did it in several crucial games (in the Seattle Super Bowl and the Denver AFCCG). They also likely knew they weren't going to sign him over Hightower. So they let him go early.

That's the first problem with the comparison. Unless you know for a fact you are likely going to move on and you are already not entirely satisfied with the player, the cheap deal is of more value than whatever you are likely to get in a draft pick. Sorry the 32 isn't of more value than a cheap deal with Butler. The 11 maybe because you can probably get a quality player at that spot in the draft with less of a risk, especially when a few other teams will be reaching on QB's before that.

The second problem is that there is a very low chance they franchise Jimmy next year. Unless Brady has a massive decline this year, you aren't paying both and you aren't paying Jimmy more than Brady. They will either move on from Jimmy OR move on from Brady. Or try to do a work around longterm plan that involves Jimmy signing a contract where pay graduates from year to year. If that's even possible.

And even if Butler walks for nothing next year, one year of him on a cheap deal with Gilmore gives us one of the best secondary's in the league when you factor in McCourty and Chung AND allows us to make some more signings this year. That's worth more than what we likely get with a draft pick.
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patman


Joined: 02 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BayRaider wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
BayRaider wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
BayRaider wrote:
Dalton wrote:
If Denver can afford two #1 corners, so can the Pats.


Are you insinuating Gilmore is a #1 Corner? Ask any Bill fan if they think he's anything close to a #1. He's a slightly above average #2.


Slightly above average #2? Laughing

I'd love to hear your list of 40-45 guys who are better than him.

I don't think any Pats fan would argue that he's a top 10 CB (despite his flashes and possible untapped potential), but "slightly above average #2" is laughable.


40-45 guys? Are you saying every team has a #1 corner? Just because there is 32 teams doesn't mean there's 32 #1 caliber corners. An extremely flawed viewpoint. Gilmore is probably top 30, barely, but that doesn't make him a #1 corner.


So he would be good enough to be a #1 on a few teams but he's barely above average as a #2?

Laughing

I get what you're saying but if many teams don't have a "#1" by your definition, then the definition is flawed.


You understand exactly what I am saying. If Tebow is the 32nd starting QB in the NFL is he a #1 caliber QB..? No. Just because there is 32 top corner spots available definitelt does not mean there is 32 caliber #1 corners.


yes it says exactly that. Gilmore is a #1 corner, he may not have been a top ten corner playing for the bills. I guess in your thinking only probowl corners are #1 corners. Your trying to muddle the definition. They are all pros, pro bowl and top ten corners being referenced al the time. I never heard of a guy being a #1 corner as a definition of how good he is. I certainly heard it as a reference to a guy being the #1 corner on a team, but not a as a reference to league wide rankings.

I "hear"that Denver has two #1s corners as to mean that they have two guys who both would normally be the top guy on a team.

Your analogy to Tebow is wrong- While Tebow is/was a below average qb, he was a #1 qb on a playoff team. He was a #1. All Teams have #1 receivers, even if that receiver is not a probowl level performer. Not Gilmour's bigest detractor would say that he was an average CB, never mind a below average
performer.
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domepatrol91


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about all the teams that are running some sort of nickel as a base defense? Are there really 40-50 "#1" CBs in the league?

I've always considered a #1 CB to be roughly the top 20 or so guys. When I think CB2 I think about guys in the 21-35 range. That's just me though.

When a team signs a decent corner in that CB2 range I mentioned you'll see fans say "He's a decent #2" or "He'll struggle being the #1 guy, he isn't a #1" stuff like that.

I feel like everyone was pretty much on the same page, maybe I totally have been misreading the situation for year. Laughing
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reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BayRaider wrote:
Dalton wrote:
If Denver can afford two #1 corners, so can the Pats.


Are you insinuating Gilmore is a #1 Corner? Ask any Bill fan if they think he's anything close to a #1. He's a slightly above average #2.


What's your definition of a #1 corner? And a slightly above average #2 corner doesn't get paid what he got paid. Gilmore is absolutely a #1 corner but how good he is the question.

I don't know where you got a slightly above average #2 from.
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