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DeMarcus Ware retires
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resilient


Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 4527
Location: where old school ballers go to die
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rtnldave wrote:
resilient wrote:
I am just curious Dave, you say these players Took over games;

"Lawrence Taylor or Charles Haley or Jack Lambert or Randy White, etc."

they all had some great teammates, whose were D Ware's?

And if you say Spencer , I am leaving Shocked Very Happy


1st round picks: Newman, R. Williams, M. Spears, B. Carpenter

Super bowl winner with the NYG C Canty.

J. Ratliff.

These guys weren't bums.



1st rd picks don't make someone great. Newman was good, never great, R Williams got burnt more than toast, M Spears and Bobby Carpenter Shocked
Do they even have 10 career sacks between them? Canty?

Either way Dave, feel free to debate Ware if you like. I just think you will be in the very thin minority with this one.
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Rtnldave


Joined: 10 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

resilient wrote:
Rtnldave wrote:
resilient wrote:
I am just curious Dave, you say these players Took over games;

"Lawrence Taylor or Charles Haley or Jack Lambert or Randy White, etc."

they all had some great teammates, whose were D Ware's?

And if you say Spencer , I am leaving Shocked Very Happy


1st round picks: Newman, R. Williams, M. Spears, B. Carpenter

Super bowl winner with the NYG C Canty.

J. Ratliff.

These guys weren't bums.



1st rd picks don't make someone great. Newman was good, never great, R Williams got burnt more than toast, M Spears and Bobby Carpenter Shocked
Do they even have 10 career sacks between them? Canty?

Either way Dave, feel free to debate Ware if you like. I just think you will be in the very thin minority with this one.


No doubt, but you look at a guy like Canty and put a question mark beside his name when all he did was EXACTLY what Ware did. Went to another team and earned a ring.

Now, of course I am being a bit facetious here. I KNOW he didn't have Ware's pedigree or stats, but the fact remains he was a teammate of Ware's and when he went to another team, he earned a ring, just like Ware.

But that's not really my point. My point is I do not believe Ware EVER became the vocal and emotional leader that reflects his level of play.

Michael Strahan was that guy on the NYG, like in 2007 when they came into our house and beat us en route to a SB title.

Ware had AMPLE talent around him to do so. I don't have the numbers or dates, but someone on here posted how we had a very high number of sacks during Ware's time. We also won 13 games and went to the NFC divisional s twice and lost.

That's all I am saying. I know 99% of folks on here will never see it from that perspective and that is fine, I'm not trying to convince anyone, I am simply throwing in my two cents on the D Ware retirement thread.

For what it's worth, I feel that way about a great many players that everyone puts on a pedestal and I always get flack for it, and thats ok.
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htfryar


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave, your argument included Bobby Freaking Carpenter. There's no way to dig out of that hole. Sorry brother. Laughing
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Rtnldave


Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 4149
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

htfryar wrote:
Dave, your argument included Bobby Freaking Carpenter. There's no way to dig out of that hole. Sorry brother. Laughing


But its NOT an argument. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, rather explain why I feel the way I do.

I thought Ware was a solid player or us, leads the team in all time sacks, etc.
I just expected more of him in a leadership role when we were in the post season.

As for Carpenter, I agree he was a bust, I was merely trying to point out that w had MULTIPLE 1st round selections around Ware, not a bunch of 7th rounders.
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Tony7188


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaBoys wrote:
The Ware hate that has permeated this forum for years has always been silly in my mind. People have a problem with the timing of his sacks. "They didn't come when it mattered most!!"

He's 8th ALL TIME in sacks. His post season stats are impeccable. His regular season stats are among the best all time. The sacks came all the time. Sorry DWare only had 2 sacks in a game we lost, instead of 4 sacks. Sorry DWare didn't make our crappy team SB champions all by his self, but he damn sure tried. He did it better than almost everyone who has played the game of football.

I love how Tony Romo get's a pass(from the same posters) for playing on the same [inappropriate/removed] teams DWare did, but Ware is hung high for not winning it all. Maybe if we didn't pay Tony Romo(You know the guy who plays QB and is SUPPOSED to carry a team) so much got damned wasted money, we could have brought in a better team for Ware. A surrounding cast like the Broncos gave him. Go ahead and look up his stats in that SB run. I'll wait.

Him winning it all as soon as he left should be proof positive that it wasn't him holding us down. It was us holding him back.

But yeah, Ware sucked, and Romo is the greatest of all time. Expert evaluation. Only one was held back by the (same)team.

Rolling Eyes

Remember 2007? Who was let down that year? Of course...Romo was... Remember us having 46 sacks that year? We were 3rd in the entire league in sacks. I can't remember what that would feel like anymore. How about 2008 when we had 50 freaking 9 sacks? 59! Ware had 20 by his self! That's right f'ckn 20! 1 guy. We were 1st in the NFL in sacks! We don't have a guy who can reach 10 anymore, it's pathetic. 42 sacks in 2009! Did you know Ware accounted for FORTY FIVE sacks by his self in that 3 years span.

Who let down WHO!?

Denver is ranked 13th in sacks in 2013. Ware leaves Dallas and boom. Denver leads the league in sacks every year.

The Ware hate is ignorant.


I'm sorry that you get so emotional over someone challenging Ware's legacy with the Cowboys. There is no Ware "hate", no doubt he's a HOF when it comes to his stats, which is what you keep talking about. What me and Dave are talking about is IMPACT. Ware never took a game over in the playoffs when we needed him too like other pass rushers did in their prime (see Von Miller, James Harrison, Suggs, Allen).

Obviously everything isn't all Ware's fault, but he was our best player. Can you do me a favor and name me Ware's most signature play with the Cowboys? I'll wait. Remember the 8-8 seasons where we lost every win or go home game to our division rivals? Remember in 2011 when Suggs won DPOY over Ware (even though Ware had more sacks that year)? I wonder why that was...

As for you saying that Ware had no help, do you really want to go down the list of the players we had on the defense DaBoys? So I guess Newman, Spencer and Ratliff were scrubs? Let's not forget about how he wasn't the vocal leader either, he "lead by example".

As for Tony Romo, I will remember him similar to Ware as a player who never got it done with the Cowboys. Romo killed this team many times in the past with his erratic play. Danny White should be more revered with his accomplishments than Romo, so I don't know who you're referring to when you say Romo gets a pass from "the same posters".

We had a Top 10 QB and a Top 2 DE in their prime, yet Dallas has nothing to show for it. Romo and Ware not winning anything with the Cowboys are asterisks, no matter how you slice it. They couldn't even get pass the second round, let alone a SB. It's been 21 years since Dallas has reached a NFC Championship Game. 21 YEARS. With all the success and stats you speak of from our star players. So I'm sorry I won't sit here and just praise him, let alone post a picture of him holding the Lombardi Trophy for another franchise.
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Rtnldave


Joined: 10 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony7188 wrote:
DaBoys wrote:
The Ware hate that has permeated this forum for years has always been silly in my mind. People have a problem with the timing of his sacks. "They didn't come when it mattered most!!"

He's 8th ALL TIME in sacks. His post season stats are impeccable. His regular season stats are among the best all time. The sacks came all the time. Sorry DWare only had 2 sacks in a game we lost, instead of 4 sacks. Sorry DWare didn't make our crappy team SB champions all by his self, but he damn sure tried. He did it better than almost everyone who has played the game of football.

I love how Tony Romo get's a pass(from the same posters) for playing on the same [inappropriate/removed] teams DWare did, but Ware is hung high for not winning it all. Maybe if we didn't pay Tony Romo(You know the guy who plays QB and is SUPPOSED to carry a team) so much got damned wasted money, we could have brought in a better team for Ware. A surrounding cast like the Broncos gave him. Go ahead and look up his stats in that SB run. I'll wait.

Him winning it all as soon as he left should be proof positive that it wasn't him holding us down. It was us holding him back.

But yeah, Ware sucked, and Romo is the greatest of all time. Expert evaluation. Only one was held back by the (same)team.

Rolling Eyes

Remember 2007? Who was let down that year? Of course...Romo was... Remember us having 46 sacks that year? We were 3rd in the entire league in sacks. I can't remember what that would feel like anymore. How about 2008 when we had 50 freaking 9 sacks? 59! Ware had 20 by his self! That's right f'ckn 20! 1 guy. We were 1st in the NFL in sacks! We don't have a guy who can reach 10 anymore, it's pathetic. 42 sacks in 2009! Did you know Ware accounted for FORTY FIVE sacks by his self in that 3 years span.

Who let down WHO!?

Denver is ranked 13th in sacks in 2013. Ware leaves Dallas and boom. Denver leads the league in sacks every year.

The Ware hate is ignorant.


I'm sorry that you get so emotional over someone challenging Ware's legacy with the Cowboys. There is no Ware "hate", no doubt he's a HOF when it comes to his stats, which is what you keep talking about. What me and Dave are talking about is IMPACT. Ware never took a game over in the playoffs when we needed him too like other pass rushers did in their prime (see Von Miller, James Harrison, Suggs, Allen).

Obviously everything isn't all Ware's fault, but he was our best player. Can you do me a favor and name me Ware's most signature play with the Cowboys? I'll wait. Remember the 8-8 seasons where we lost every win or go home game to our division rivals? Remember in 2011 when Suggs won DPOY over Ware (even though Ware had more sacks that year)? I wonder why that was...

As for you saying that Ware had no help, do you really want to go down the list of the players we had on the defense DaBoys? So I guess Newman, Spencer and Ratliff were scrubs? Let's not forget about how he wasn't the vocal leader either, he "lead by example".

As for Tony Romo, I will remember him similar to Ware as a player who never got it done with the Cowboys. Romo killed this team many times in the past with his erratic play. Danny White should be more revered with his accomplishments than Romo, so I don't know who you're referring to when you say Romo gets a pass from "the same posters".

We had a Top 10 QB and a Top 2 DE in their prime, yet Dallas has nothing to show for it. Romo and Ware not winning anything with the Cowboys are asterisks, no matter how you slice it. They couldn't even get pass the second round, let alone a SB. It's been 21 years since Dallas has reached a NFC Championship Game. 21 YEARS. With all the success and stats you speak of from our star players. So I'm sorry I won't sit here and just praise him, let alone post a picture of him holding the Lombardi Trophy for another franchise.


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DaBoys


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaBoys wrote:
The Ware hate that has permeated this forum for years has always been silly in my mind. People have a problem with the timing of his sacks. "They didn't come when it mattered most!!"

He's 8th ALL TIME in sacks. His post season stats are impeccable. His regular season stats are among the best all time. The sacks came all the time. Sorry DWare only had 2 sacks in a game we lost, instead of 4 sacks. Sorry DWare didn't make our crappy team SB champions all by his self, but he damn sure tried. He did it better than almost everyone who has played the game of football.

I love how Tony Romo get's a pass(from the same posters) for playing on the same [inappropriate/removed] teams DWare did, but Ware is hung high for not winning it all. Maybe if we didn't pay Tony Romo(You know the guy who plays QB and is SUPPOSED to carry a team) so much got damned wasted money, we could have brought in a better team for Ware. A surrounding cast like the Broncos gave him. Go ahead and look up his stats in that SB run. I'll wait.

Him winning it all as soon as he left should be proof positive that it wasn't him holding us down. It was us holding him back.

But yeah, Ware sucked, and Romo is the greatest of all time. Expert evaluation. Only one was held back by the (same)team.

Rolling Eyes

Remember 2007? Who was let down that year? Of course...Romo was... Remember us having 46 sacks that year? We were 3rd in the entire league in sacks. I can't remember what that would feel like anymore. How about 2008 when we had 50 freaking 9 sacks? 59! Ware had 20 by his self! That's right f'ckn 20! 1 guy. We were 1st in the NFL in sacks! We don't have a guy who can reach 10 anymore, it's pathetic. 42 sacks in 2009! Did you know Ware accounted for FORTY FIVE sacks by his self in that 3 years span.

Who let down WHO!?

Denver is ranked 13th in sacks in 2013. Ware leaves Dallas and boom. Denver leads the league in sacks every year.

The Ware hate is ignorant.


Quote:
I'm sorry that you get so emotional over someone challenging Ware's legacy with the Cowboys. There is no Ware "hate", no doubt he's a HOF when it comes to his stats, which is what you keep talking about. What me and Dave are talking about is IMPACT. Ware never took a game over in the playoffs when we needed him too like other pass rushers did in their prime (see Von Miller, James Harrison, Suggs, Allen).

Obviously everything isn't all Ware's fault, but he was our best player. Can you do me a favor and name me Ware's most signature play with the Cowboys? I'll wait. Remember the 8-8 seasons where we lost every win or go home game to our division rivals? Remember in 2011 when Suggs won DPOY over Ware (even though Ware had more sacks that year)? I wonder why that was...

As for you saying that Ware had no help, do you really want to go down the list of the players we had on the defense DaBoys? So I guess Newman, Spencer and Ratliff were scrubs? Let's not forget about how he wasn't the vocal leader either, he "lead by example".

As for Tony Romo, I will remember him similar to Ware as a player who never got it done with the Cowboys. Romo killed this team many times in the past with his erratic play. Danny White should be more revered with his accomplishments than Romo, so I don't know who you're referring to when you say Romo gets a pass from "the same posters".

We had a Top 10 QB and a Top 2 DE in their prime, yet Dallas has nothing to show for it. Romo and Ware not winning anything with the Cowboys are asterisks, no matter how you slice it. They couldn't even get pass the second round, let alone a SB. It's been 21 years since Dallas has reached a NFC Championship Game. 21 YEARS. With all the success and stats you speak of from our star players. So I'm sorry I won't sit here and just praise him, let alone post a picture of him holding the Lombardi Trophy for another franchise.


Quote:
I'm sorry that you get so emotional over someone challenging Ware's legacy with the Cowboys.


lol I'm not emotional. I'm passionate. It happens when other people are in need of correcting.

Quote:
As for you saying that Ware had no help, do you really want to go down the list of the players we had on the defense DaBoys?


When did I say Ware had no other defenders around him? Did I say he was the only player on defense that was good? You and Dave both responded to that, but I don't think I ever said that. I said he was let down by the offense just as much as Romo was let down by his defense, which is something you ALWAYS here about Romo's career, but never about Ware's.

And since when are TNewman and ASpencer respected as cornerstones in this forum? They sure weren't when they played here. Anyway, I actually think Newman was okay. Spencer was picked in the 1st round but kinda busted like Carpenter, and Spears. Jay Ratliff had 2 solid years.


Quote:
Ware never took a game over in the playoffs when we needed him too like other pass rushers did in their prime (see Von Miller, James Harrison, Suggs, Allen)


Right... the last time we went to the playoffs with Ware we won our first playoff game in nearly 2 decades beating the Eagles in the wildcard 34-14 as DeMarcus Ware had 2 sacks, 3 tackles, 1 forced fumble, as the defense sent Donaven McNabb hobbling off the field to be replaced by Mike Vick who was also beat up, sacked, and stripped(by Ware). The defense was incredible and DWare took over. Maybe you're too young or to stubborn to remember that though because it doesn't fit your ignorant narrative.

How about the fact that he has more playoff sacks than Von Miller? Convenient that you remember Suggs' performances in the playoffs. Ware has only played in 8 playoff games, while Suggs has been in 17 different playoff games. He has had a little more opportunity to dominate playoff games since he has played in 9 MORE playoff games than Ware. Yet, Ware = 7.5 sacks - Suggs = 12.5 sacks. Jared Allen has 4 career sacks in 7 playoff games. WTH are you talking about? You're just naming big names hoping they did more than Ware, not actually referring to specific performances that you remember.

Career playoff games:
James Harrison: 19 games - 11 sacks
Suggs: 17 games - 12.5 sacks

Ware: 8 games - 7.5 sacks
Miller: 7 games - 6.5 sacks

If you're good at math you can see Ware is getting the most out of his games.

And don't say stupid things like "I don't care about stats." When people say that during a losing debate all I hear is, "I don't care about what actually happened."

Especially when it comes to stats like the number of times a guy sacked the opponents QB.


Quote:
Remember in 2011 when Suggs won DPOY over Ware (even though Ware had more sacks that year)? I wonder why that was...


Ummmm because he had better stats(AKA a better season)?

2011 Ware: 58 tackles
2011 Suggs: 70 tackles

2011 Ware: 0 INTs
2011 Suggs: 2 INTS

2011 Ware: 2 pass def
2011 Suggs: 6 pass def

2011 Ware: 2 forced fum
2011 Suggs: 7 forced fum

2011 Ware: 19.5 sacks
2011 Suggs: 14 sacks

Besides the 5.5 sacks Suggs has way better stats than Ware. It was still a close race though. It was also just that 1 year. Ware is a 4 time all pro, while Suggs is a 1 time all pro. Wonder why that was.....

Quote:

As for Tony Romo, I will remember him similar to Ware as a player who never got it done with the Cowboys. Romo killed this team many times in the past with his erratic play. Danny White should be more revered with his accomplishments than Romo, so I don't know who you're referring to when you say Romo gets a pass from "the same posters".


Not you I guess. But there has been plenty of Ware hate over the last 10 years on this board. He get's criticized for the same things Romo is given a pass for. Just pointing that out.

Quote:

We had a Top 10 QB and a Top 2 DE in their prime, yet Dallas has nothing to show for it. Romo and Ware not winning anything with the Cowboys are asterisks, no matter how you slice it. They couldn't even get pass the second round, let alone a SB. It's been 21 years since Dallas has reached a NFC Championship Game. 21 YEARS. With all the success and stats you speak of from our star players. So I'm sorry I won't sit here and just praise him, let alone post a picture of him holding the Lombardi Trophy for another franchise.


At certain points, Romo and Ware both did enough at their respective positions to win a superbowl. They weren't perfect, but they were more than enough. Unfortunately, football is a team sport and there are 21 other guys on the field that aren't Ware. And no amount of Barbie Carpenter/Anthony Spencer praising is going to lessen what Ware was able to do.


I think your biggest problem with Ware was that he wasn't a Rah Rah loud mouth like Dez, or Suggs. I can do without. If your teammates need that to play well then they aren't very good I would think.
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TVScout


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those seasons when Ware and Romo were at their peaks failed because of bad play calling.
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TheGame316


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quarters 1 though 3 are going to miss his production
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WizardHawk


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheGame316 wrote:
Quarters 1 though 3 are going to miss his production


Yep. 4th qtr too where the majority of his sacks came.
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WizardHawk wrote:
TheGame316 wrote:
Quarters 1 though 3 are going to miss his production


Yep. 4th qtr too where the majority of his sacks came.


Yup. Out of all the NFC E fans, I often think our own make the most dumb effing retarded comments.
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resilient


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
WizardHawk wrote:
TheGame316 wrote:
Quarters 1 though 3 are going to miss his production


Yep. 4th qtr too where the majority of his sacks came.


Yup. Out of all the NFC E fans, I often think our own make the most dumb effing retarded comments.


sorry but the Eagle's fans got this one on lock Cool
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WizardHawk


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
WizardHawk wrote:
TheGame316 wrote:
Quarters 1 though 3 are going to miss his production


Yep. 4th qtr too where the majority of his sacks came.


Yup. Out of all the NFC E fans, I often think our own make the most dumb effing retarded comments.


Amen.
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

resilient wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
WizardHawk wrote:
TheGame316 wrote:
Quarters 1 though 3 are going to miss his production


Yep. 4th qtr too where the majority of his sacks came.


Yup. Out of all the NFC E fans, I often think our own make the most dumb effing retarded comments.


sorry but the Eagle's fans got this one on lock Cool


Eagles fans think Romo and Ware were good players...
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TheGame316


Joined: 19 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
WizardHawk wrote:
TheGame316 wrote:
Quarters 1 though 3 are going to miss his production


Yep. 4th qtr too where the majority of his sacks came.


Yup. Out of all the NFC E fans, I often think our own make the most dumb effing retarded comments.


26 Career sacks in the 4th quarter

26/138.5 = 18.7%

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/8426

You can go season by season

18.5/117 for 15.7% when he was a Cowboy

Maybe not so dumb eh?


Last edited by TheGame316 on Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:42 am; edited 3 times in total
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