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What should the Pats do with Malcolm Butler?
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PatriotsWin!


Joined: 10 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know who said the 42nd pick is mediocre but having pick 32 means we get a 5 yr contract instead of just 4 yrs with a 2nd round pick.
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1ForTheThumb


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Here's a thought on Malcolm Butler and the Saints before they meet to negotiate a contract. If Pats/Saints prefer trade, consider cost..."

"With an offer sheet, the Saints would owe the Pats the 11th pick in the draft if the Patriots decline to match it, obviously..."

"The NFL draft trade value chart (outdated, but a guideline nonetheless) lists the 11th pick as worth 1,250 points..."

"A comparable trade should then include the 32nd (590 pts), 42nd (480) and 76th (210) picks (1,280 points total)."

"So unless the Pats get that type of haul in return, they'd be doing the Saints a huge favor by negotiating a trade before an offer sheet."


Jeff Howe tweeting out exactly what I've been saying.
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lancerman


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MookieMonster wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
MookieMonster wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
I'm not saying the Saints should give up 11 for Butler.

But barring some miracle where Bill Belichick has suddenly started feeling pity for the rest of the league and wants to be charitable, I don't see why the Patriots should trade him for anything less than first round value.

If someone wants to work out a deal giving us the equivalent value of a 1st round pick? Fine. That makes sense for both sides.

You either get market value for him or you keep him for the year and get top tier CB play for $4M.


The only caveat I would add is that if Belichick thinks Butler would actually refuse to sign his RFA tender or delay signing it until into the late summer/regular season, then trying to trade him for less than a 1st makes some sense. I think that's a very unlikely scenario but Butler's agent does seem like a moron so it's possible.

My preferred outcome here is Butler back for 1 year on the RFA tender with a possible franchise tag next year. I don't foresee him in New England long term and one year of him (plus the possibility of an extra year via franchising) is worth more than a late 1st round pick. Now, if they could get #11, it's a no-brainer to me. But that seems unlikely.


I agree 100%. If Butler flat out says he will not play for the RFA tender amount and needs to be moved, that is when the price drops because the Patriots leverage weakens.

I just laugh at the people who think the Patriots placed a 1st round tag on a guy they've developed and are just going to let him leave for a 2nd round pick. If that was the case they wouldn't have tagged him at the first round level.


Thats just not true. If we set him at a second round tag, we risk him signing with a contender like Pittsburgh and we receive a late 2nd round pick in return. By placing the 1st round tender on him, we know we get a 1st if he signs elsewhere OR we can discuss a trade for an early 2nd. It gives us way more options, placing the 1st round tender on someone doesn't mean you're absolutely not taking any less than a 1st.


Patriots aren't giving up Butler for less than a 1st.

There is literally no reason to.

Having Butler on the team next year is more valuable than any one we could potentially draft from 25 to the 7th round.

Belichick isn't dumb. Nor is he charitable.

I'll say it again. Butler isn't going anywhere for less than a 1st. Not quite sure why you are so hell bent on dumping him for mediocre picks.

I was simply explaining why your statement was incorrect. Tagging a guy at 1st round tender doesn't mean his actual value is that of a 1st round pick.

Also, I love how the 32nd pick is good value to everyone but apparently the 42nd pick is "mediocre" Laughing


It is mediocre. We don't have to anything nice for anybody. The lowest pick anybody can give up for Butler is the 31. Going down to 32 is an acceptable drop.

As it pertains to Malcolm Butler the Patriots are entitled to

a) a cheap 2017 season
b) a first round draft pick.

A second round draft pick is worth less than both of those. We have no reason to concede that.

If Butler really wants to ruin his career and sit out in a contract season and have the whole league watch the Patriots not miss a beat without him, be my guest.

But the 32 overall is already being generous.
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Donut


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalton wrote:
ill be upset w/ anything less than pick 11 for butler. we can afford paying both and should.


I wouldn't. I'd take #32 back or even their 2nd w/ a 3rd rounder. I don't think we should overpay him and getting a max return on him imo would just be better than having him disgruntled the full year and risk him just sitting out for part of the yr or TC.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donut wrote:
Dalton wrote:
ill be upset w/ anything less than pick 11 for butler. we can afford paying both and should.


I wouldn't. I'd take #32 back or even their 2nd w/ a 3rd rounder. I don't think we should overpay him and getting a max return on him imo would just be better than having him disgruntled the full year and risk him just sitting out for part of the yr or TC.


A 2nd and 3rd for a guy with a 1st round tender is pretty awful IMO. A disgruntled Butler who plays only 12 games (or whatever happens in an extended sitting out scenario) is a lot more valuable to the 2017 Pats than a mid 2nd round pick and another 3rd rounder.

The thing is, if Butler wants that huge payday, he has to show up and play well next year. He has to know that. So that takes a lot of his leverage away.
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keysersoze3421


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Donut wrote:
Dalton wrote:
ill be upset w/ anything less than pick 11 for butler. we can afford paying both and should.


I wouldn't. I'd take #32 back or even their 2nd w/ a 3rd rounder. I don't think we should overpay him and getting a max return on him imo would just be better than having him disgruntled the full year and risk him just sitting out for part of the yr or TC.


A 2nd and 3rd for a guy with a 1st round tender is pretty awful IMO. A disgruntled Butler who plays only 12 games (or whatever happens in an extended sitting out scenario) is a lot more valuable to the 2017 Pats than a mid 2nd round pick and another 3rd rounder.

The thing is, if Butler wants that huge payday, he has to show up and play well next year. He has to know that. So that takes a lot of his leverage away.


Exactly. It would be detrimental for the Patriots to have Butler sit out the whole season, but it would be far more detrimental to Butler himself. He has almost no leverage.
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GoldenboyGB


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1ForTheThumb wrote:
Quote:
"Here's a thought on Malcolm Butler and the Saints before they meet to negotiate a contract. If Pats/Saints prefer trade, consider cost..."

"With an offer sheet, the Saints would owe the Pats the 11th pick in the draft if the Patriots decline to match it, obviously..."

"The NFL draft trade value chart (outdated, but a guideline nonetheless) lists the 11th pick as worth 1,250 points..."

"A comparable trade should then include the 32nd (590 pts), 42nd (480) and 76th (210) picks (1,280 points total)."

"So unless the Pats get that type of haul in return, they'd be doing the Saints a huge favor by negotiating a trade before an offer sheet."


Jeff Howe tweeting out exactly what I've been saying.


Its def a weird situation. I would be okay with 32+ a third+ a future pick but if they sign him to a deal (even houston for that matter) that matches up with what we would want to pay him anyways why not match it?

Either matching the deal or flat out not doing them any favors. I doubt with the Cooks deal they had an arrangement to send Butler once this got worked out back for 32 like some reporters are saying. I think this is its own situation where NE would let NO sign him and take their pick.

They want him fork up the pick.
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iothar


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saints have serious momentum towards deal.

Why would this be occurring if the Saints were not going to offer him a deal to give up their 1st?
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iothar wrote:
Saints have serious momentum towards deal.

Why would this be occurring if the Saints were not going to offer him a deal to give up their 1st?


Their D sucks and he's the best piece out there to help them. His talent is easily worth a 1st round pick. He's unhappy with the Pats. The Pats have, ostensibly, replaced him.

Lot of reasons to look into doing the deal from their point of view. That more teams aren't sniffing around is surprising
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keysersoze3421


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Saints do sign Butler, the Pats don't match, and they surrender pick 11, that effectively means the Saints will have given up Brandin Cooks, pick 11, and a large contract for Malcolm Butler and pick 32.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

keysersoze3421 wrote:
If the Saints do sign Butler, the Pats don't match, and they surrender pick 11, that effectively means the Saints will have given up Brandin Cooks, pick 11, and a large contract for Malcolm Butler and pick 32.


I can't imagine they'd give up 11 for him. I hope they do, but it seems unlikely
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lancerman


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given our cap situation there is no reason not to sign Butler. Nobody is going to be able to offer more than us with that tender unless they clear it with the Pats first.

Can we just lock this guy up and have a solid defense for a few years. And worry about other things.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lancerman wrote:
Given our cap situation there is no reason not to sign Butler. Nobody is going to be able to offer more than us with that tender unless they clear it with the Pats first.

Can we just lock this guy up and have a solid defense for a few years. And worry about other things.


Yeah, who cares about tomorrow's cap when we can spend now.
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nextsuperstar


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
lancerman wrote:
Given our cap situation there is no reason not to sign Butler. Nobody is going to be able to offer more than us with that tender unless they clear it with the Pats first.

Can we just lock this guy up and have a solid defense for a few years. And worry about other things.


Yeah, who cares about tomorrow's cap when we can spend now.


It's classical Keynesian economics.
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Jlowe22


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm gonna be extremely ticked if we lose 11 over this. 32 I'm fine with, but 11? That's awful for us. I'd like to think we aren't that dumb, but I've thought that plenty of times before, and have been proven wrong.
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