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What should the Pats do with Malcolm Butler?
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lancerman


Joined: 06 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalton wrote:
ill be upset w/ anything less than pick 11 for butler. we can afford paying both and should.


I wouldn't. I would be fine with a good faith deal for the 32 back. Which is what everyone thought. Butler and a third for Cooks and a fourth. Butler is worth the 32 back, he's not really worth the 11.
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Dalton


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lancerman wrote:
Dalton wrote:
ill be upset w/ anything less than pick 11 for butler. we can afford paying both and should.


I wouldn't. I would be fine with a good faith deal for the 32 back. Which is what everyone thought. Butler and a third for Cooks and a fourth. Butler is worth the 32 back, he's not really worth the 11.


how is cooks worth more than butler?
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Starless


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalton wrote:
lancerman wrote:
Dalton wrote:
ill be upset w/ anything less than pick 11 for butler. we can afford paying both and should.


I wouldn't. I would be fine with a good faith deal for the 32 back. Which is what everyone thought. Butler and a third for Cooks and a fourth. Butler is worth the 32 back, he's not really worth the 11.


how is cooks worth more than butler?
To a team with no upper-tier WR talent or a QB who can't make do without it, he would be. Not to the Pats.
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Dalton


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saints fans are doing some wishful thinking that there exists some undercover deal to send butler for cooks, but with the way things are now, the pats have no reason to do that. they'd be selling themselves short when they can just use butler one more potential championship year and get a comp pick. (or franchise and trade or sign a long deal contract next year)
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lancerman


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalton wrote:
lancerman wrote:
Dalton wrote:
ill be upset w/ anything less than pick 11 for butler. we can afford paying both and should.


I wouldn't. I would be fine with a good faith deal for the 32 back. Which is what everyone thought. Butler and a third for Cooks and a fourth. Butler is worth the 32 back, he's not really worth the 11.


how is cooks worth more than butler?


I'm saying he's not worth the 11 but he's worth the 32. And in all reality the 32 makes it Butler for Cooks with the Pats moving down a few spots from the third to fourth round to sweeten the pot, nothing crazy.
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patsfan06


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not saying the Saints should give up 11 for Butler.

But barring some miracle where Bill Belichick has suddenly started feeling pity for the rest of the league and wants to be charitable, I don't see why the Patriots should trade him for anything less than first round value.

If someone wants to work out a deal giving us the equivalent value of a 1st round pick? Fine. That makes sense for both sides.

You either get market value for him or you keep him for the year and get top tier CB play for $4M.
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Dalton


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan06 wrote:
I'm not saying the Saints should give up 11 for Butler.

But barring some miracle where Bill Belichick has suddenly started feeling pity for the rest of the league and wants to be charitable, I don't see why the Patriots should trade him for anything less than first round value.

If someone wants to work out a deal giving us the equivalent value of a 1st round pick? Fine. That makes sense for both sides.

You either get market value for him or you keep him for the year and get top tier CB play for $4M.


exactly
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1ForTheThumb


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blows my mind that Saints fans think Belichick is going to give The Saints a discount on Butler and that this is a continuation of the Cooks trade.

Belichick would be crazy to let Butler walk for anything close to equivalent of #11 overall on the "point scale".

Nothing's changed, Patriots have all the leverage here.
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lancerman


Joined: 06 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalton wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
I'm not saying the Saints should give up 11 for Butler.

But barring some miracle where Bill Belichick has suddenly started feeling pity for the rest of the league and wants to be charitable, I don't see why the Patriots should trade him for anything less than first round value.

If someone wants to work out a deal giving us the equivalent value of a 1st round pick? Fine. That makes sense for both sides.

You either get market value for him or you keep him for the year and get top tier CB play for $4M.


exactly


Like I said, I'd be okay with getting the 32 back. And that's the lowest I'd go.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan06 wrote:
I'm not saying the Saints should give up 11 for Butler.

But barring some miracle where Bill Belichick has suddenly started feeling pity for the rest of the league and wants to be charitable, I don't see why the Patriots should trade him for anything less than first round value.

If someone wants to work out a deal giving us the equivalent value of a 1st round pick? Fine. That makes sense for both sides.

You either get market value for him or you keep him for the year and get top tier CB play for $4M.


The only caveat I would add is that if Belichick thinks Butler would actually refuse to sign his RFA tender or delay signing it until into the late summer/regular season, then trying to trade him for less than a 1st makes some sense. I think that's a very unlikely scenario but Butler's agent does seem like a moron so it's possible.

My preferred outcome here is Butler back for 1 year on the RFA tender with a possible franchise tag next year. I don't foresee him in New England long term and one year of him (plus the possibility of an extra year via franchising) is worth more than a late 1st round pick. Now, if they could get #11, it's a no-brainer to me. But that seems unlikely.
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patsfan06


Joined: 19 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
I'm not saying the Saints should give up 11 for Butler.

But barring some miracle where Bill Belichick has suddenly started feeling pity for the rest of the league and wants to be charitable, I don't see why the Patriots should trade him for anything less than first round value.

If someone wants to work out a deal giving us the equivalent value of a 1st round pick? Fine. That makes sense for both sides.

You either get market value for him or you keep him for the year and get top tier CB play for $4M.


The only caveat I would add is that if Belichick thinks Butler would actually refuse to sign his RFA tender or delay signing it until into the late summer/regular season, then trying to trade him for less than a 1st makes some sense. I think that's a very unlikely scenario but Butler's agent does seem like a moron so it's possible.

My preferred outcome here is Butler back for 1 year on the RFA tender with a possible franchise tag next year. I don't foresee him in New England long term and one year of him (plus the possibility of an extra year via franchising) is worth more than a late 1st round pick. Now, if they could get #11, it's a no-brainer to me. But that seems unlikely.


I agree 100%. If Butler flat out says he will not play for the RFA tender amount and needs to be moved, that is when the price drops because the Patriots leverage weakens.

I just laugh at the people who think the Patriots placed a 1st round tag on a guy they've developed and are just going to let him leave for a 2nd round pick. If that was the case they wouldn't have tagged him at the first round level.
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MookieMonster


Joined: 17 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan06 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
I'm not saying the Saints should give up 11 for Butler.

But barring some miracle where Bill Belichick has suddenly started feeling pity for the rest of the league and wants to be charitable, I don't see why the Patriots should trade him for anything less than first round value.

If someone wants to work out a deal giving us the equivalent value of a 1st round pick? Fine. That makes sense for both sides.

You either get market value for him or you keep him for the year and get top tier CB play for $4M.


The only caveat I would add is that if Belichick thinks Butler would actually refuse to sign his RFA tender or delay signing it until into the late summer/regular season, then trying to trade him for less than a 1st makes some sense. I think that's a very unlikely scenario but Butler's agent does seem like a moron so it's possible.

My preferred outcome here is Butler back for 1 year on the RFA tender with a possible franchise tag next year. I don't foresee him in New England long term and one year of him (plus the possibility of an extra year via franchising) is worth more than a late 1st round pick. Now, if they could get #11, it's a no-brainer to me. But that seems unlikely.


I agree 100%. If Butler flat out says he will not play for the RFA tender amount and needs to be moved, that is when the price drops because the Patriots leverage weakens.

I just laugh at the people who think the Patriots placed a 1st round tag on a guy they've developed and are just going to let him leave for a 2nd round pick. If that was the case they wouldn't have tagged him at the first round level.


Thats just not true. If we set him at a second round tag, we risk him signing with a contender like Pittsburgh and we receive a late 2nd round pick in return. By placing the 1st round tender on him, we know we get a 1st if he signs elsewhere OR we can discuss a trade for an early 2nd. It gives us way more options, placing the 1st round tender on someone doesn't mean you're absolutely not taking any less than a 1st.
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patsfan06


Joined: 19 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MookieMonster wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
I'm not saying the Saints should give up 11 for Butler.

But barring some miracle where Bill Belichick has suddenly started feeling pity for the rest of the league and wants to be charitable, I don't see why the Patriots should trade him for anything less than first round value.

If someone wants to work out a deal giving us the equivalent value of a 1st round pick? Fine. That makes sense for both sides.

You either get market value for him or you keep him for the year and get top tier CB play for $4M.


The only caveat I would add is that if Belichick thinks Butler would actually refuse to sign his RFA tender or delay signing it until into the late summer/regular season, then trying to trade him for less than a 1st makes some sense. I think that's a very unlikely scenario but Butler's agent does seem like a moron so it's possible.

My preferred outcome here is Butler back for 1 year on the RFA tender with a possible franchise tag next year. I don't foresee him in New England long term and one year of him (plus the possibility of an extra year via franchising) is worth more than a late 1st round pick. Now, if they could get #11, it's a no-brainer to me. But that seems unlikely.


I agree 100%. If Butler flat out says he will not play for the RFA tender amount and needs to be moved, that is when the price drops because the Patriots leverage weakens.

I just laugh at the people who think the Patriots placed a 1st round tag on a guy they've developed and are just going to let him leave for a 2nd round pick. If that was the case they wouldn't have tagged him at the first round level.


Thats just not true. If we set him at a second round tag, we risk him signing with a contender like Pittsburgh and we receive a late 2nd round pick in return. By placing the 1st round tender on him, we know we get a 1st if he signs elsewhere OR we can discuss a trade for an early 2nd. It gives us way more options, placing the 1st round tender on someone doesn't mean you're absolutely not taking any less than a 1st.


Patriots aren't giving up Butler for less than a 1st.

There is literally no reason to.

Having Butler on the team next year is more valuable than any one we could potentially draft from 25 to the 7th round.

Belichick isn't dumb. Nor is he charitable.

I'll say it again. Butler isn't going anywhere for less than a 1st. Not quite sure why you are so hell bent on dumping him for mediocre picks.
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dhunt2402


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
I'm not saying the Saints should give up 11 for Butler.

But barring some miracle where Bill Belichick has suddenly started feeling pity for the rest of the league and wants to be charitable, I don't see why the Patriots should trade him for anything less than first round value.

If someone wants to work out a deal giving us the equivalent value of a 1st round pick? Fine. That makes sense for both sides.

You either get market value for him or you keep him for the year and get top tier CB play for $4M.


The only caveat I would add is that if Belichick thinks Butler would actually refuse to sign his RFA tender or delay signing it until into the late summer/regular season, then trying to trade him for less than a 1st makes some sense. I think that's a very unlikely scenario but Butler's agent does seem like a moron so it's possible.

My preferred outcome here is Butler back for 1 year on the RFA tender with a possible franchise tag next year. I don't foresee him in New England long term and one year of him (plus the possibility of an extra year via franchising) is worth more than a late 1st round pick. Now, if they could get #11, it's a no-brainer to me. But that seems unlikely.


Do you then risk Garoppolo leaving for nothing? Assuming he isn't traded this offseason
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MookieMonster


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan06 wrote:
MookieMonster wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
I'm not saying the Saints should give up 11 for Butler.

But barring some miracle where Bill Belichick has suddenly started feeling pity for the rest of the league and wants to be charitable, I don't see why the Patriots should trade him for anything less than first round value.

If someone wants to work out a deal giving us the equivalent value of a 1st round pick? Fine. That makes sense for both sides.

You either get market value for him or you keep him for the year and get top tier CB play for $4M.


The only caveat I would add is that if Belichick thinks Butler would actually refuse to sign his RFA tender or delay signing it until into the late summer/regular season, then trying to trade him for less than a 1st makes some sense. I think that's a very unlikely scenario but Butler's agent does seem like a moron so it's possible.

My preferred outcome here is Butler back for 1 year on the RFA tender with a possible franchise tag next year. I don't foresee him in New England long term and one year of him (plus the possibility of an extra year via franchising) is worth more than a late 1st round pick. Now, if they could get #11, it's a no-brainer to me. But that seems unlikely.


I agree 100%. If Butler flat out says he will not play for the RFA tender amount and needs to be moved, that is when the price drops because the Patriots leverage weakens.

I just laugh at the people who think the Patriots placed a 1st round tag on a guy they've developed and are just going to let him leave for a 2nd round pick. If that was the case they wouldn't have tagged him at the first round level.


Thats just not true. If we set him at a second round tag, we risk him signing with a contender like Pittsburgh and we receive a late 2nd round pick in return. By placing the 1st round tender on him, we know we get a 1st if he signs elsewhere OR we can discuss a trade for an early 2nd. It gives us way more options, placing the 1st round tender on someone doesn't mean you're absolutely not taking any less than a 1st.


Patriots aren't giving up Butler for less than a 1st.

There is literally no reason to.

Having Butler on the team next year is more valuable than any one we could potentially draft from 25 to the 7th round.

Belichick isn't dumb. Nor is he charitable.

I'll say it again. Butler isn't going anywhere for less than a 1st. Not quite sure why you are so hell bent on dumping him for mediocre picks.

I was simply explaining why your statement was incorrect. Tagging a guy at 1st round tender doesn't mean his actual value is that of a 1st round pick.

Also, I love how the 32nd pick is good value to everyone but apparently the 42nd pick is "mediocre" Laughing
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