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What should the Pats do with Malcolm Butler?
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1ForTheThumb


Joined: 06 Dec 2016
Posts: 370
Location: Boston
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan06 wrote:
For me it just comes down to Malcolm Butler is just more valuable to this teams chances of winning the Super Bowl, than a pick between 32 and 256.

That changes if the Saints just tender an offersheet or decide to offer 32+another pick.

Otherwise, I say keep playing chicken.


Completely agree. I really think it's like 75/25 Butler plays out this season.
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Tommy5Rings


Joined: 16 Feb 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1ForTheThumb wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
For me it just comes down to Malcolm Butler is just more valuable to this teams chances of winning the Super Bowl, than a pick between 32 and 256.

That changes if the Saints just tender an offersheet or decide to offer 32+another pick.

Otherwise, I say keep playing chicken.


Completely agree. I really think it's like 75/25 Butler plays out this season.


That's the beauty of this whole process. Pats have all the leverage. Worst case scenario they get Butler for another year and a 3rd round compensatory most likely. That's not a bad worst case scenario at all.

Otherwise, hold the Saints to the price tag that you want and see if they'll pay it
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 32060
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tommy5Rings wrote:
1ForTheThumb wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
For me it just comes down to Malcolm Butler is just more valuable to this teams chances of winning the Super Bowl, than a pick between 32 and 256.

That changes if the Saints just tender an offersheet or decide to offer 32+another pick.

Otherwise, I say keep playing chicken.


Completely agree. I really think it's like 75/25 Butler plays out this season.


That's the beauty of this whole process. Pats have all the leverage. Worst case scenario they get Butler for another year and a 3rd round compensatory most likely. That's not a bad worst case scenario at all.

Otherwise, hold the Saints to the price tag that you want and see if they'll pay it


Wouldn't the worst case be a scenario where Butler doesn't sign at all, signs very late or signs late and is ineffective?
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Tommy5Rings


Joined: 16 Feb 2017
Posts: 37
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Tommy5Rings wrote:
1ForTheThumb wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
For me it just comes down to Malcolm Butler is just more valuable to this teams chances of winning the Super Bowl, than a pick between 32 and 256.

That changes if the Saints just tender an offersheet or decide to offer 32+another pick.

Otherwise, I say keep playing chicken.


Completely agree. I really think it's like 75/25 Butler plays out this season.


That's the beauty of this whole process. Pats have all the leverage. Worst case scenario they get Butler for another year and a 3rd round compensatory most likely. That's not a bad worst case scenario at all.

Otherwise, hold the Saints to the price tag that you want and see if they'll pay it


Wouldn't the worst case be a scenario where Butler doesn't sign at all, signs very late or signs late and is ineffective?


If he wants to destroy his value across the league, then yeah sure. But that's also worst case scenario for Butler
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 32060
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tommy5Rings wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Tommy5Rings wrote:
1ForTheThumb wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
For me it just comes down to Malcolm Butler is just more valuable to this teams chances of winning the Super Bowl, than a pick between 32 and 256.

That changes if the Saints just tender an offersheet or decide to offer 32+another pick.

Otherwise, I say keep playing chicken.


Completely agree. I really think it's like 75/25 Butler plays out this season.


That's the beauty of this whole process. Pats have all the leverage. Worst case scenario they get Butler for another year and a 3rd round compensatory most likely. That's not a bad worst case scenario at all.

Otherwise, hold the Saints to the price tag that you want and see if they'll pay it


Wouldn't the worst case be a scenario where Butler doesn't sign at all, signs very late or signs late and is ineffective?


If he wants to destroy his value across the league, then yeah sure. But that's also worst case scenario for Butler


I don't see why sitting out part of the season would destroy his value or why that's deemed to be unrealistic.
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patsfan06


Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 5936
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Tommy5Rings wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Tommy5Rings wrote:
1ForTheThumb wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
For me it just comes down to Malcolm Butler is just more valuable to this teams chances of winning the Super Bowl, than a pick between 32 and 256.

That changes if the Saints just tender an offersheet or decide to offer 32+another pick.

Otherwise, I say keep playing chicken.


Completely agree. I really think it's like 75/25 Butler plays out this season.


That's the beauty of this whole process. Pats have all the leverage. Worst case scenario they get Butler for another year and a 3rd round compensatory most likely. That's not a bad worst case scenario at all.

Otherwise, hold the Saints to the price tag that you want and see if they'll pay it


Wouldn't the worst case be a scenario where Butler doesn't sign at all, signs very late or signs late and is ineffective?


If he wants to destroy his value across the league, then yeah sure. But that's also worst case scenario for Butler


I don't see why sitting out part of the season would destroy his value or why that's deemed to be unrealistic.


While I agree the worst case scenario is where the Patriots lose leverage. I also believe we are a good 3+ months away from that point.

On the point, a 28 year old who say out a bunch of games and then came back to play at an ineffective will certainly cost himself some money.

Lastly, Butler should fire his agent if he sits out a single game. Because regardless of how underpaid he is, the $3.9M salary will still be 10x more than he has made so far in his entire career. It''s not like he is a former first round pick who already made a good chunk of money. That being said, it seems like if the way an agent who would lead his client down a poor path like that it would be this one.
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Tommy5Rings


Joined: 16 Feb 2017
Posts: 37
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Tommy5Rings wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Tommy5Rings wrote:
1ForTheThumb wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
For me it just comes down to Malcolm Butler is just more valuable to this teams chances of winning the Super Bowl, than a pick between 32 and 256.

That changes if the Saints just tender an offersheet or decide to offer 32+another pick.

Otherwise, I say keep playing chicken.


Completely agree. I really think it's like 75/25 Butler plays out this season.


That's the beauty of this whole process. Pats have all the leverage. Worst case scenario they get Butler for another year and a 3rd round compensatory most likely. That's not a bad worst case scenario at all.

Otherwise, hold the Saints to the price tag that you want and see if they'll pay it


Wouldn't the worst case be a scenario where Butler doesn't sign at all, signs very late or signs late and is ineffective?


If he wants to destroy his value across the league, then yeah sure. But that's also worst case scenario for Butler


I don't see why sitting out part of the season would destroy his value or why that's deemed to be unrealistic.


Sitting out obviously hurts your value across the league. Teams then need to question if you'll even show up to work when you're under contract.

If it didn't hurt your value, players would do it all the time
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PatriotsWin!


Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 21296
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Butler saying 'nothing changed but the change" on his Instagram. He is saying he just got paid? Pats extension finally offered? Exclamation
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 32060
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tommy5Rings wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Tommy5Rings wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Tommy5Rings wrote:
1ForTheThumb wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
For me it just comes down to Malcolm Butler is just more valuable to this teams chances of winning the Super Bowl, than a pick between 32 and 256.

That changes if the Saints just tender an offersheet or decide to offer 32+another pick.

Otherwise, I say keep playing chicken.


Completely agree. I really think it's like 75/25 Butler plays out this season.


That's the beauty of this whole process. Pats have all the leverage. Worst case scenario they get Butler for another year and a 3rd round compensatory most likely. That's not a bad worst case scenario at all.

Otherwise, hold the Saints to the price tag that you want and see if they'll pay it


Wouldn't the worst case be a scenario where Butler doesn't sign at all, signs very late or signs late and is ineffective?


If he wants to destroy his value across the league, then yeah sure. But that's also worst case scenario for Butler


I don't see why sitting out part of the season would destroy his value or why that's deemed to be unrealistic.


Sitting out obviously hurts your value across the league. Teams then need to question if you'll even show up to work when you're under contract.

If it didn't hurt your value, players would do it all the time


You think a top 15 CB in the league wouldn't get a huge contract as a UFA next offseason because he sits out some games? Really? In a league where even halfway decent CB's are hard to find and thus paid handsomely?

Agree to disagree on that one. Barring a huge off field issue or major injury, he's going to get paid when he's on the open market.

Also, how did sitting out affect Logan Mankins's value? Seems to me that it worked pretty well for him.
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for why more guys don't sit out- there aren't many RFA who are good enough to feel comfortable in getting paid who also don't get extensions or offer sheets. It's a pretty rare scenario Butler is in
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Tommy5Rings


Joined: 16 Feb 2017
Posts: 37
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
As for why more guys don't sit out- there aren't many RFA who are good enough to feel comfortable in getting paid who also don't get extensions or offer sheets. It's a pretty rare scenario Butler is in


Chris Harris comes to mind. I don't believe he had an offer sheet or an extension until he played out his RFA tender year. But I definitely agree it's a pretty unique situation.

I just don't see Butler ignoring a 500% pay increase when he's guaranteed what he wants anyway the following year.

All of this is probably moot anyway. I would be super surprised if he wasn't a Saint in a month.
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lancerman


Joined: 06 Feb 2011
Posts: 8588
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Tommy5Rings wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Tommy5Rings wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Tommy5Rings wrote:
1ForTheThumb wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
For me it just comes down to Malcolm Butler is just more valuable to this teams chances of winning the Super Bowl, than a pick between 32 and 256.

That changes if the Saints just tender an offersheet or decide to offer 32+another pick.

Otherwise, I say keep playing chicken.


Completely agree. I really think it's like 75/25 Butler plays out this season.


That's the beauty of this whole process. Pats have all the leverage. Worst case scenario they get Butler for another year and a 3rd round compensatory most likely. That's not a bad worst case scenario at all.

Otherwise, hold the Saints to the price tag that you want and see if they'll pay it


Wouldn't the worst case be a scenario where Butler doesn't sign at all, signs very late or signs late and is ineffective?


If he wants to destroy his value across the league, then yeah sure. But that's also worst case scenario for Butler


I don't see why sitting out part of the season would destroy his value or why that's deemed to be unrealistic.


Sitting out obviously hurts your value across the league. Teams then need to question if you'll even show up to work when you're under contract.

If it didn't hurt your value, players would do it all the time


You think a top 15 CB in the league wouldn't get a huge contract as a UFA next offseason because he sits out some games? Really? In a league where even halfway decent CB's are hard to find and thus paid handsomely?

Agree to disagree on that one. Barring a huge off field issue or major injury, he's going to get paid when he's on the open market.

Also, how did sitting out affect Logan Mankins's value? Seems to me that it worked pretty well for him.


He's a UDFA who only played two starting years, is not top really close to top 10 imo, was exclusively in a Belichick defense, and we don't know who else is going to be on the market next year.

Yeah if I was his agent I wouldn't want him to sit a year. This is a league where the best RB in a generation is having trouble finding a contract after he missed a year to injury just one year removed from an all pro year where he led the league in rushing and rushing TD's. They look for reasons to pay you as little as possible. And all things considered a non top 10 guy whose only been in the league 4 years that didn't start for one and sat out his most recent, and had his only two years of success under one of the best defensive minds in the league, is going to put some negatives on him. He's far better balling out for another year and getting a contract.
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patsfan06


Joined: 19 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am 100% for Malcolm Butler trying to get as much money as possible. He's done the improbable by going from an UDFA to a bonafide NFL star. He deserves to be paid.

That being said, he really isn't in a position to pass up between $500K and $1.5M by sitting out games this year as a guy who has only made $1.53M so far in his career as someone who is already 27.

In a situation where the choice is sit out games or play the season for $3.9M when you think you are worth $13M per year...Butler should do what he thinks is best for himself and his future. I personally think best would be playing 16 games on the low salary, balling out, proving you are real star by winning a 3rd Super Bowl and making $75M next year (okay that might be a little steep but point stands).

Patriots on the other hand should make no moves until something changes with Butler/another team tenders him an offer sheet.
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Tommy5Rings


Joined: 16 Feb 2017
Posts: 37
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan06 wrote:
I am 100% for Malcolm Butler trying to get as much money as possible. He's done the improbable by going from an UDFA to a bonafide NFL star. He deserves to be paid.

That being said, he really isn't in a position to pass up between $500K and $1.5M by sitting out games this year as a guy who has only made $1.53M so far in his career as someone who is already 27.

In a situation where the choice is sit out games or play the season for $3.9M when you think you are worth $13M per year...Butler should do what he thinks is best for himself and his future. I personally think best would be playing 16 games on the low salary, balling out, proving you are real star by winning a 3rd Super Bowl and making $75M next year (okay that might be a little steep but point stands).

Patriots on the other hand should make no moves until something changes with Butler/another team tenders him an offer sheet.


If I'm the Pats, I would gladly take 32 and NO's second for Butler in lieu of #11. All day.
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MoJo63


Joined: 20 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tommy5Rings wrote:
patsfan06 wrote:
I am 100% for Malcolm Butler trying to get as much money as possible. He's done the improbable by going from an UDFA to a bonafide NFL star. He deserves to be paid.

That being said, he really isn't in a position to pass up between $500K and $1.5M by sitting out games this year as a guy who has only made $1.53M so far in his career as someone who is already 27.

In a situation where the choice is sit out games or play the season for $3.9M when you think you are worth $13M per year...Butler should do what he thinks is best for himself and his future. I personally think best would be playing 16 games on the low salary, balling out, proving you are real star by winning a 3rd Super Bowl and making $75M next year (okay that might be a little steep but point stands).

Patriots on the other hand should make no moves until something changes with Butler/another team tenders him an offer sheet.


If I'm the Pats, I would gladly take 32 and NO's second for Butler in lieu of #11. All day.


I would be surprised if that offer is on the table. As it stands now we gave up our 32 for a WR we didn't need who will be looking for a big deal next year. I don't agree that losing a first round pick in this scenario is good.

Now maybe if Butler stays, and maybe if Butler and Cooks help secure another SB then I would agree, otherwise not.
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