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Time to apologize to Mac
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jetsfanforlife


Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
jetsfanforlife wrote:


Very well written, I certainly know far more than I did before. I will argue that Macc's contracts given out in his first year are still good moves. How is he to know that Vernon or Osemele would be FA a year before they hit the market? If you look at the list of POTENTIAL free agents next season:

- Drew Brees
- Kirk Cousins
- Sam Bradford
- Matthew Stafford
- JPP
- Le'Veon Bell
- Larry Fitzgerald
- Alshon Jeffery
- Kam Chancellor
- Vontaze Burfict
- Ziggy Ansah
- Sheldon Richardson
- Tyler Eifert
- DeAndre Hopkins
- Jimmy Garoppolo

You get the point. Most of these guys will never see free agency. Some will get the franchise tag, some will resign before FA opens, and others will be traded. So to say Macc blew his money on 2015 when he has no knowledge of who will be a FA the following year is just ridiculous.

Secondly there is something to be said about his draft philosophy. He has said before that he signs players to fill holes in FA so he can go into the draft looking for BPA. Once he drafts those players he prefers to let them learn and get limited reps their first season, 1st round being the exception. Given that we were completely devoid of talent when he took over he went into FA and attacked our weakest area, CB/S, with big money. I won't argue that Woody likely pushed him to get Revis but based on how angry fans were after the way Idzik screwed Rex I think fans would have rioted if some serious steps weren't taken.

Fast forward to 2015 season, our relatively cheap backup QB was thrust into the starting roll and out performed anyone expectations. This was the worse thing that could happen because we weren't able to see Geno play with the talent that we finally put around him. Now the team wanted "their QB" back so we were forced to bring Fitz in or have a terrible locker room from the get-go. In the first 2 weeks we saw our vets start to fall off a cliff and by week 3 Fitz imploded with his 6 pick game and we lost Decker for the season. Last season was over as soon as that happened.

Now we get to this offseason, sure we have $12M in dead money but that hasn't been the reason we cut people and it hasn't been the reason players haven't signed with us. Most of Macc's draft picks have made the roster and he's taken calculated risks based on the information available to him at the time. In terms of rebuilding, maybe we were set back one year because we over performed in 2015 but we are in a good position heading into this next year. We've cleared all our cap space from the vets that weren't living up to their contracts, he gave us the flexibility to decide between Sheldon or Wilk while we waited on Sheldon's legal issues, we have guys who sat behind vets that are now ready to see significant playing time, we have the 6th pick in the draft which should land us a star player, our receiving core under Macc has been the best we've ever seen. While Hack is a polarizing player among fans we only spent a 2nd round pick on him so in the event that he turns into a franchise QB that will go down as one of our best picks in franchise history. If he falls flat on his face then we have Geno Smith 2.0 with better leadership skills as a backup. If Hack/Petty flop this season then we are looking to be in prime position to have a top pick in what looks to be a QB heavy draft that we haven't seen since Eli, Rivers, Big Ben.

So IMO the overspending in 2015 has not effected our future nearly as much as you seem to be suggesting.Very well written, I certainly know far more than I did before. I will argue that Macc's contracts given out in his first year are still good moves. How is he to know that Vernon or Osemele would be FA a year before they hit the market? If you look at the list of POTENTIAL free agents next season:

- Drew Brees
- Kirk Cousins
- Sam Bradford
- Matthew Stafford
- JPP
- Le'Veon Bell
- Larry Fitzgerald
- Alshon Jeffery
- Kam Chancellor
- Vontaze Burfict
- Ziggy Ansah
- Sheldon Richardson
- Tyler Eifert
- DeAndre Hopkins
- Jimmy Garoppolo

You get the point. Most of these guys will never see free agency. Some will get the franchise tag, some will resign before FA opens, and others will be traded. So to say Macc blew his money on 2015 when he has no knowledge of who will be a FA the following year is just ridiculous.

Secondly there is something to be said about his draft philosophy. He has said before that he signs players to fill holes in FA so he can go into the draft looking for BPA. Once he drafts those players he prefers to let them learn and get limited reps their first season, 1st round being the exception. Given that we were completely devoid of talent when he took over he went into FA and attacked our weakest area, CB/S, with big money. I won't argue that Woody likely pushed him to get Revis but based on how angry fans were after the way Idzik screwed Rex I think fans would have rioted if some serious steps weren't taken.

Fast forward to 2015 season, our relatively cheap backup QB was thrust into the starting roll and out performed anyone expectations. This was the worse thing that could happen because we weren't able to see Geno play with the talent that we finally put around him. Now the team wanted "their QB" back so we were forced to bring Fitz in or have a terrible locker room from the get-go. In the first 2 weeks we saw our vets start to fall off a cliff and by week 3 Fitz imploded with his 6 pick game and we lost Decker for the season. Last season was over as soon as that happened.

Now we get to this offseason, sure we have $12M in dead money but that hasn't been the reason we cut people and it hasn't been the reason players haven't signed with us. Most of Macc's draft picks have made the roster and he's taken calculated risks based on the information available to him at the time. In terms of rebuilding, maybe we were set back one year because we over performed in 2015 but we are in a good position heading into this next year. We've cleared all our cap space from the vets that weren't living up to their contracts, he gave us the flexibility to decide between Sheldon or Wilk while we waited on Sheldon's legal issues, we have guys who sat behind vets that are now ready to see significant playing time, we have the 6th pick in the draft which should land us a star player, our receiving core under Macc has been the best we've ever seen. While Hack is a polarizing player among fans we only spent a 2nd round pick on him so in the event that he turns into a franchise QB that will go down as one of our best picks in franchise history. If he falls flat on his face then we have Geno Smith 2.0 with better leadership skills as a backup. If Hack/Petty flop this season then we are looking to be in prime position to have a top pick in what looks to be a QB heavy draft that we haven't seen since Eli, Rivers, Big Ben.

So IMO the overspending in 2015 has not effected our future nearly as much as you seem to be suggesting.


Let me thank you for the response I enjoyed reading it. Unfortunately, I think you're missing the point. Wherever some person (myself for example), questioned the financial decisions Mike Maccagnan or just anyone who questioned the usage of funds/cap space during the 2015 season, we were shouted down by, "But the Jets HAD to meet the salary cap floor minimum, so he HAD to spend the money, you're an idiot!"

No one should be denied the right to articulate a different way which they feel is best for the team, but being dismissed by a phony fact a person heard somewhere, but nor you (present company excluded) or the person you got it from actually understood, but the ones whit the knowledge were dismissed and berated. Saw it written in the newspapers and on sports talk radio, described incorrectly, even today? I only hope what was written about minimum spending requirements allows for understand and why certain decisions were made. Maintain this team was built to win, just enough in 2015, but they actually more than they thought, no playoffs though. Hey, that doesn't stop ticket prices from from going up?

You certainly might be correct, that not much would be different today even if other moves were made, there is now way to know, like saying, if Woody left Idzik here we'd have won a championship, sarcasm, so it's really irrelevant? Fact is the team went for 10-6 to 5-11 in one season and the 2016 cap was tight. I do believe that a winner is built through the draft, but free agency has its place and that requires cap room. Maybe getting some younger players game opportunities would be paying-off now. It's is strange, and you need to ask yourself, how come Maccagnan has done a 180 from the way he built the team in 2015. Makes you wonder who called the shots?

This not about who's a FA in 2017 or 2018 and should the Jets get them, but they did have interest in Vernon and Osemele (outbid), should they have spent less in 2015 and save some for 2016. Oh and they could have reached the "Minimum Team Cash Spending, (NFL/CBA Article 12, Section 9) and be we'd been better off this past season and better off today, IMO of course? Both your last and the post before yours said that they felt the team had been held back, but had different time frames.

It still to this day drives me nuts, that I hear the same argument, "They HAD to spend, all their 2015 cap space," which is totally wrong, even "so called," experts get it wrong it makes you want to scream and send what I wrote in the forum via twitter, it would be 2396 tweets.
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rdelaney89


Joined: 22 Jan 2009
Posts: 3829
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand the frustration, not being listened to or belittled shouldn't happen, this is a forum after all but I think the 180 you are referring to Macc doing can be explained. I do believe fan/owner pressure caused the Revis signing. Outside of that it was Macc's first year so he didn't have a chance to draft any of "his" guys. By structuring those 2015 agents the way he did it gave him 2 drafts to try and get "his" guys while also letting them sit or slowly get worked into starting rolls. I think most of us expected to have a worse record last year but no one predicted Revis would fall off as steeply as he did. That with the combo of poor QB play doomed us.

We missed out on Vernon but there is no guarantee that we get him if we hadn't spent money in 2015. Our team was a 10 win team because of all the moves Macc made. It was an attractive landing spot before last season. We didn't have a QB when Vernon signed. The Giants have the star QB, receiver, and dropped $200M worth of contracts, that's why they landed him and we didn't. I do think we are on the right trajectory and it doesn't really feel like a 180 as much as it was a needed starting point to get "his" guys in and up to speed.
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Kyu


Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 390
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The truth is, we'll never know.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.. 2015 smells like a Woody mandate to try and win. Yes, Mac traded away some draft capital and handed out some big deals, but I am very pleased with where we are now if that was the case. First and foremost, Woody is the boss. Saying that Mac is nothing but a yes-man is not fair to him. When your senior manager, in this case the owner of the team, gives you a mandate, you try and deliver. Mac did what he could with what he had. More importantly, he didn't sacrifice the future in doing so.

They called in a "competitive rebuild", but in essence, it was just filling holes in FA to allow Mac time to draft and build a foundation to the team. Now, we're clearly not there yet, but we're in good cap shape and there are a number of young players Mac brought in that have or will have roles on this team.

He found some diamonds, or at least rocks worth shining, later in the draft and UDFA. This will be his third draft and he's already established a BPA approach which has netted us an anchor up front in Leo, a speedy and versatile LB in Lee, rotational OLBs, possibly a bookend at RT, and a group of exciting young WR.

Obviously the elephant in the room is at QB, but Mac has done a nice job so far of accumulating talent through the draft. He, along with everyone else, has preached filling holes in FA and building through the draft. How do you fill those holes? That depends on the life cycle of the team. In 2015, we wanted to compete, thus the Revis, Marshall, Skrine, etc. In 2017, we want to build. We weren't going to sign an All-Pro secondary like 2015 because it doesn't fit the time line.

All in all, could this process have been expedited if they tore it down in 2015? Sure, but I don't feel that the "competitive" portion of the rebuild has hindered the actual rebuild much.
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Bobby816


Joined: 21 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me it's simple... until we find a franchise QB for this team any GM or HC is on the hot seat.
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Bianconero


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobby816 wrote:
For me it's simple... until we find a franchise QB for this team any GM or HC is on the hot seat.
This hasn't happened in our existence
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Kyu


Joined: 26 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobby816 wrote:
For me it's simple... until we find a franchise QB for this team any GM or HC is on the hot seat.


Finding a QB should be priority A, B, and C. But how to get one?

Unfortunately, obtaining one is not that easy. Very rarely does a Luck or Jameis or Mariota come around matching need with value at the top of the draft.

I know I sound like a fanboy, but I've come to grips with the reality that QBs don't grow on trees. We tried to move up for Mariota, we've taken a QB every year in the draft, and also looked into FA and the trade market.

Would it be nice to find a QB right now? I'd be ecstatic, but until we have one we must exhaust all options, and that's what we've done. I like the direction of the rebuild so maybe that's calming me down, but QB will be answered.

Please....
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rickyt31


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well we can just build a good surrounding like the 49ers (JH era), Seahawks, and 03 steelers did until we get our guy. They built a heavy rushing attack, Good defense, and at least good enough targets. I think Macc is taking that approach.

Our rushing was ranked 12th when our oline struggled. WJ, Shell, and Beachum getting a full offseason as starters with the new system could improve our blocking. Drafting another RB is another plus.

Our defense was ranked #4 in rushing yards per carry. We just have to revamp our secondary. New play caller & position coaches that have a pretty good rep, so things can improve there when we get the talent.

Our WRs are pretty good now. Enunwa & Decker can both get you 1K with the right QB. Anderson looked good and is learning from the right people. Peake had some flashes. ASJ is only 24, and even if he doesn't workout, we can find a good TE in this draft.

Just feels like we're not far off from building the same way those teams were built when they went from losing to winning. This draft is pretty loaded in those positions I just named. If we can take advantage of this draft and find a QB who can at least help improve the offense and change the vibe in the locker room, this could be a good year. Wilson, Ben, and Kaep walked into good situations that were developed around Alex Smith, Tommy Maddox, and supposed to be Flynn but Wilson beat him early.

I'm not giving up on Hack, but we just haven't been doing a good job of scouting QBs. It's not like we haven't had a chance because we didn't suck the right years. We had a shot at Derek Carr, chose Pryor. Had a shot at QBs like Cousins, Dak, Wilson, and others. If we if we did a better job, we would have our guy and possibly not be in this situation.


For Hack, I've been using Siemian as an example. It's not impossible for him to go out there and did what he did. He was a 7th round pick and did that after sitting a year.

So overall, I still think we can be good over the next 2 years if we handle this offseason correctly. We lost out on some key FA's, but we can be built like those 3 teams if this offseason is handled correctly.
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ekill08x


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think next year is a year well start to see the returns of a rebuild. 2017 is not going to be pretty but necessary
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rampantjet


Joined: 25 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ekill08x wrote:
I think next year is a year well start to see the returns of a rebuild. 2017 is not going to be pretty but necessary


Sam Darnold seems like a nice consolation prize for our suffering.
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Rickjets2007


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rampantjet wrote:

He's gotten more out of late picks, and undrafted FA's than any GM we've had. IMO that is what makes a good GM even more than the guy that hits on ever first round pick (because that guy doesn't exist). Bill B has missed on a ton of first rounders but he always seems to find guys later on and that were undrafted that all play important roles on his team.

I really like how Macc has been approaching things so far. I wouldn't be surprised if the spending spree in year one had Woody behind it. This is the exact type of offseason we need.


The spending spree in year 1 was due to the Labor agreement between the owners and the players which was signed a few seasons prior. Basically, the agreement was that the teams must spend about 89% of their total salary cap in the first 4 years of the agreement. The Jets had a bunch of cap space when Mac came in thanks to Idzik not spending and purging contract the years previously.

The only thing I have read about Woody Johnson was a reports stating Woody wanted Revis back bad. The report stated that Macc was againt the big contract for Revis, but Woody pushed for it.

That being said, I like what Macc is doing. It is has been long over due. We needed a complete rebuild. I am tired of all the past bandaid signings that have left us coming up short year after year.
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Bobby816


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me Macc has to get more out of his 2nd and 3rd Round picks. Smith has barely played bc of health, Lozo hasn't done much in 2 years, Hack hopefully gets a chance to prove himself this year and Jenkins needs to step up as well like Lozo.

These are valuable picks where you should be getting good players and we haven't gotten that from these picks. This needs to change. I think Greene can hopefully get the most out of Lozo and Jenkins, Smith hopefully can stay healthy and become a starter at WR for us and I really hope Hack is this franchises franchise QB. But I know I wouldn't bet on any of the 3 really happeneing.
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jetsfanforlife


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The spending spree in year 1 was due to the Labor agreement between the owners and the players which was signed a few seasons prior. Basically, the agreement was that the teams must spend about 89% of their total salary cap in the first 4 years of the agreement.


I think it might be helpful if you look back at my post earlier in this thread about how the "Minimum Cash Spending" in the CBA actually works.

According to your statement the labor agreement (CBA), which started in 2011. had a 4-year block of teams spending "about?" 89% of their caps. So, the Jets along with every other team had to spend 89% of their 2011, 12, 13, 14 caps? This is incorrect, 2011 & 12 had no per-team limit just a league-wide minimum "cash" spending of 99% which was met, the four-year blocks started in 2013. When discussing something please don't really on lazy reporters to provide information especially when it comes to cap/CBA issues. Most don't take the time to understand how it really works:

The NFL's Collective Bargaining Agreement, Article 12, Sections 9 - clearly lays out the how the league's minimum spending really works:


Minimum Team Cash Spending:


"(a) For each of the following four-League Year periods, 2013-2016 and
2017-2020, there shall be a guaranteed Minimum Team Cash Spending of 89% of the Salary Caps for such periods (e.g., if the Salary Caps for the 2013-16 and 2017-2020 are $100, 120, 130, and 150 million, respectively, each Club shall have a Minimum Team Cash Spending for that period of $445 million (89% of $500 million)."


I think you all miss the point the Jets had 2 years (2015-16) to spend $283 million "in cash" not cap, there's a big difference between the two, to met 89%. The Jets actually spent $329 million in cash in those two years, 97.5% over 2013-16.

The Patriots spent 84% of their cap in cash during the 2013-14 season, but won the Super Bowl in 2014? They meet the required minimum by end of 2016, like every other team, and won a Super Bowl again. The Patriots average salary for their starters in 2016 was $3.825 million while the Jets was $5.2 million, 4th highest in the league, goes to show wise spending is better. The Carolina Panthers spent 81% of their cap in cash during the 2013-14 season, but went to the Super Bowl in 2015 and made the required minimum. The Jets spent 82% of their cap in cash during the 2013-14 season along with the Cowboys and Jaguars, all made the minimum. How come I don't remember most, if not any, of these teams having to spend "all" their money in 2015?

The NFL is now entering another four-year block so it makes sense to clear payroll now and increase spending later as the cap goes up, this allows cash spending to increase to make up for any shortfall. The bottom line is saying the Jets "had" to spend the amount they did in 2015 because of some NFL salary rule is simple not true along with the fallacy that teams have to spend a certain percentage of their cap, as this is also false.

This thread is called: "Time to apologize to Mac," why and for what? He should be apologizing to us for using a flawed strategy, building an old expensive team through free agency that provided no chance of sustained success, and the team is now being torn down? He knew this philosophy would fail and has left them in disarray. The interesting thing is now we're supposed to be patience, trust the process and the team is in rebuild mode because it was a total mess when Maccaganan took over. Well if that's true why not start "building" a long-term winner right away, instead of wasting two years? Funny this terrible team which was set back so bad it magically won 10 games in year one of Maccagnan, fell apart in year two and looks like one of the worst teams in the league heading into this year, thought there was supposed to be progress by now, but they seem to be going backwards? Each year under Maccaganan the team takes on more of his identity and the it's Idzik's fault excuse is running out. Interesting that no one gave Idzik any credit when the Jets won ten games, even though the team got great production from a lot of his player & money (Ivory, Williams, Decker), but It was "Magic Mike" who rebuilt the Jets when they were good, and previous GMs get the blame for a poor team now?

There is no guarantee that using a more slow and steady approach would have put the team in a better position, but that is actually irrelevant, using a philosophy which time-and-time again has failed because the owner wants to sell tickets and PSL's, not win a championship, is disturbing. If Maccagnan had full control he'd never have built the team this way.

Also Maccagnan had a terrible 2016 offseason. He franchised Wilkerson, tried to trade him, but couldn't, than signed him cause he had no money, instead of having him play under the franchise tag? He waited until late April to approach Ferguson about a pay-cut, thinking he'd just take it, but Ferguson retired so Maccagnan panic traded for Clady, a great 8 game rental. If he had discussed a pay-cut sooner the Jets could have gone into free agency to get a left tackle as they let, now Jet, Kelvin Beachum walk out the door in March. He caved to Fitzpatrick as training camp started, a story which dominated the offseason and frankly doomed the season, by giving him the contract he would have taken in March? Was too scared to draft Paxton Lynch and tell Fitzpatrick to take a hike, because the fans would be unhappy if they went 5-11 with a rookie, so how did they end up doing with Fitzpatrick? Wonder if they'd be better off now with Lynch and a year of experience? The Jets are to scared of an organization to ever make a bold move, they might get criticized in the press or by fans? Maccaganan than lies saying he had Hackenberg higher up than Lynch, but Lynch went 26th in the draft, how did Maccaganan know Hackenberg would be there at 51? I wonder if John Idzik would have gotten the pass Maccaganan seems to get?

The Jets base all their decisions out of fear, they should have played Petty against New England and the Colts last year, they were 3-7 after the Rams game not going to the playoffs, but Woody didn't want to be embarrassed on national TV, even though they did against the Colts. The Jets are scared of fan reaction, you think the Patriots care if the fans don't like a move? Their fans sure like them while their wining Championships.

Slow and steady wins in the NFL, (patience, sacrifice, and discipline are what good organizations have) Maccagnan did what he was told by Woody "build me a team that wins just enough so I can raise prices." The Jets were not been built with any foresight or longevity over the past two year, with people citing a false reason why they built as they did? Everyone seems to believe this just because they heard it somewhere, without really knowing how it works? The posters in the forum seem to educated, smart and to knowledgeable to be mislead like this. Hopefully we can understand how this really works so if Maccagnan is "under" the minimum early in the four-year block, and we hear the same thing, we'll understand why it's not an issue and how it works.
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