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7DnBrnc53


Joined: 09 Mar 2010
Posts: 3253
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
With that being said I think Hasson Reddick will be a Bronco.


I could live with that. As long as it isn't a CB. Denver needs to draft a guy this year in round one that can start the first week without injuries to other players.

Then, for LT, I could live with them picking up King Dunlap and drafting Julien Davenport in round three to develop.
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germ-x


Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counselor wrote:
germ-x wrote:
As far as the OL goes I still have no issue with Lamp (my personal favorite), Bolles, or Robinson at #20.

As far as Bolles and his age I understand the concerns in one area and that's his strength/size. He's probably going to play right around 300 pounds his entire career. He makes up for this with his motor/ferocity, but I think he'll always be a guy that struggles anchoring vs more powerful players. The feet he has are unbelievable though. Don't care if he was 20 or 28, the feet/athleticism are LT worthy. I don't think he's a bookend LT in the sense of being one of the best in the league, but I can see him being a good starter for 8-10 years.


What about Ramcyzk?


Forgot about him. Yes, I'd be fine with him at #20 as well. Love his technique in the passing game out of all the OTs I think he's the best at sliding and mirroring a rusher. My biggest knock is he just doesn't have the attitude to finish like the other 3. He's a finesse guy, but he's probably the most technically sound pass protector.
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 6952
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

7DnBrnc53 wrote:
Quote:
With that being said I think Hasson Reddick will be a Bronco.


I could live with that. As long as it isn't a CB. Denver needs to draft a guy this year in round one that can start the first week without injuries to other players.

Then, for LT, I could live with them picking up King Dunlap and drafting Julien Davenport in round three to develop.


I really don't think we need another "soft" developmental OT. Also if we feel we do we can get this kid much later than the 3rd.

Off topic, PFF put out a 3 round mock. Our first two picks were Howard in rd 1 and Cam in round 2. I can't imagine that would bother anyone.
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3182
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
7DnBrnc53 wrote:
Quote:
With that being said I think Hasson Reddick will be a Bronco.


I could live with that. As long as it isn't a CB. Denver needs to draft a guy this year in round one that can start the first week without injuries to other players.

Then, for LT, I could live with them picking up King Dunlap and drafting Julien Davenport in round three to develop.


I really don't think we need another "soft" developmental OT. Also if we feel we do we can get this kid much later than the 3rd.

Off topic, PFF put out a 3 round mock. Our first two picks were Howard in rd 1 and Cam in round 2. I can't imagine that would bother anyone.


When I posted my rebutal earlier and you said you didn't know what it had to do with your post I wanted to be clear. Since 2013 when tackle was a true need there were no guys on the offensive line that Denver passed on that would of been true contributors. Travis Fredrick is a guy that stands out but we had a gem at center. Ali Marpet was another guy who stands out but obviously elway thought he had the answer at center you have to stay true to your board.

This draft if Elway feela a tackle is the answer I'm on board but I want them to stay true to their board. Elway has done a very good job picking late year in and year out because of Manning. So if the Broncos stay true to their board I'm okay with getting a tackle in round 1 but you can't put lipstick on a pig.Thats how you set a team back.
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My belief personally is elway values players in this draft. I think either A) he's working on a trade.B) He thinks he can nab,4 starters in this draft that's why you didn't see us involved in the ravens trade for Jernigan who no doubt adds too depth and the team.
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Counselor


Joined: 31 Jan 2017
Posts: 2091
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebestever6 wrote:
My belief personally is elway values players in this draft. I think either A) he's working on a trade.B) He thinks he can nab,4 starters in this draft that's why you didn't see us involved in the ravens trade for Jernigan who no doubt adds too depth and the team.


Not every GM is involved in every trade scenario in the league. It's very possible the Eagles reached out to Baltimore and Denver wasn't even aware Jernigan was on the block.
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Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 3609
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebestever6 wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
7DnBrnc53 wrote:
Quote:
With that being said I think Hasson Reddick will be a Bronco.


I could live with that. As long as it isn't a CB. Denver needs to draft a guy this year in round one that can start the first week without injuries to other players.

Then, for LT, I could live with them picking up King Dunlap and drafting Julien Davenport in round three to develop.


I really don't think we need another "soft" developmental OT. Also if we feel we do we can get this kid much later than the 3rd.

Off topic, PFF put out a 3 round mock. Our first two picks were Howard in rd 1 and Cam in round 2. I can't imagine that would bother anyone.


When I posted my rebutal earlier and you said you didn't know what it had to do with your post I wanted to be clear. Since 2013 when tackle was a true need there were no guys on the offensive line that Denver passed on that would of been true contributors. Travis Fredrick is a guy that stands out but we had a gem at center. Ali Marpet was another guy who stands out but obviously elway thought he had the answer at center you have to stay true to your board.

This draft if Elway feela a tackle is the answer I'm on board but I want them to stay true to their board. Elway has done a very good job picking late year in and year out because of Manning. So if the Broncos stay true to their board I'm okay with getting a tackle in round 1 but you can't put lipstick on a pig.Thats how you set a team back.


That's fair about Rd 1 - but it only extends to Rd 1. In 2013, he whiffed on Ball Rd 2 - in the next half round, Eddie Lacy, Travis Kelce, Tyronne Mathieu, Terron Armstead, Keenan Allen & Brian Winters all go. All of them would have helped our team immensely. At least he got Kayvon Webster Rd 3, wasn't a complete bust. In 2014, we passed on Jack Mewhort in Rd 2 to get Cody Latimer - we then compounded it by going Schofield Rd 3 - while Schofield might be OK this season as a starting G, Mewhort has been a starting LG since halfway through his rookie season. In 2015 we take Sambrailo at T Rd 2 before Frank Clark, Rd 3 with Huermann where DE's Trey Flowers & Henry Anderson went. Just a string of failed Rd 2/3 picks for Elway. He clearly reached for Sambrailo badly, and in doing so, then passed on a key area we needed last year (3-4 DE). So not just who he passed on, but who he picks OL-wise, has had a huge ripple effect in other areas of our team. And to be fair, I don't know that anyone can give Elway a pass on Marpet, since Max Garcia was drafted as a C - so going after Marpet would have been entirely justifiable, as DEN saw a C who could play G with Garcia (same deal with Marpet). Now Mewhort eventually kicked inside, but getting Mewhort as a starting LG would have enabled us to spend FA $ elsewhere, same deal with finding a 3-4 DE now. If we don't have to spend on Leary, and had a run-stopping 3-4 DE with pass rush ability to pair with Wolfe, we'd be looking like a very different 2017 team (and frankly 2016 could have gone very differently with better interior OL and run D play, those guys would have clearly helped).

That's part of the philosophy issue AKRNA is alluding to - not just about Rd 2-3, but we've always de-prioritized OL in the draft and even in FA. Then compounded it by mostly busy picks for our OL. Now getting Leary is a sign we're not going to stick with that philosophy, so that's encouraging but FA is expensive. I also think drafting with a present-year mentality is clearly not the best, since rookies make a bigger impact Year 2 onwards, so thinking with the Year 1 mentality is flawed - thinking 2018+ this year is more likely to be productive IMO. Had we done that in 2015 Rd 2-3, 3-4 DE would have been ID'd as a priority, with perhaps different results with any of those 3 DE's. It's why I think CB has to get picked sometime in our first 4 picks this year, by 2018+ we will be looking for one, and they are even more expensive if you want a difference maker in FA.

Now, it's easy to cherrypick on a couple of picks, there's no guarantees Elway would have hit on any of the alternatives I highlighted, but Elway's failures in Rd 2-3 and the failures to internally develop OL are legit issues, now that the T/G positions are being valued so highly in FA, the ability to find bargains there is much less likely than before.

Now, again, I have no problem if we pass on T in Rd 1 if there's an elite perennial Pro-Bowl ceiling difference maker that falls (Foster, Reddick, Davis as examples) - but Elway's biggest flaw in the draft has been Rd 2-3, and his 2nd biggest is his failure to develop O with the draft, and OL except for Franklin & Paradis in his 5-year career as GM (Clady was before his time). Again, this is an overhauled FO, and they've made changes in the scouting department, so it's a fresh slate. But this is absolutely a make or break year for Elway draft-wise - our ability to perennially contend is based on Elway's ability to restock in bargain FA & the draft. Elway's misses in Rd 2-3 have been masked by his bargain FA finds - but the bargain FA's are usually only 1-2 year deals, so the need to keep hitting is there with bargain FA each & every year. This really exposed us last year, when Elway whiffed. You hit on the draft beyond Rd 1, get 4 year 2+ starters (Year 1 is a pipe dream to have that many), and the margin for error goes way down in FA.
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steelpanther wrote:
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3182
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counselor wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
My belief personally is elway values players in this draft. I think either A) he's working on a trade.B) He thinks he can nab,4 starters in this draft that's why you didn't see us involved in the ravens trade for Jernigan who no doubt adds too depth and the team.


Not every GM is involved in every trade scenario in the league. It's very possible the Eagles reached out to Baltimore and Denver wasn't even aware Jernigan was on the block.


That would be extremely stupid on the Ravens part if you want to get value for a player you shop them around.
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Big Palooka wrote:
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Counselor


Joined: 31 Jan 2017
Posts: 2091
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebestever6 wrote:
Counselor wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
My belief personally is elway values players in this draft. I think either A) he's working on a trade.B) He thinks he can nab,4 starters in this draft that's why you didn't see us involved in the ravens trade for Jernigan who no doubt adds too depth and the team.


Not every GM is involved in every trade scenario in the league. It's very possible the Eagles reached out to Baltimore and Denver wasn't even aware Jernigan was on the block.


That would be extremely stupid on the Ravens part if you want to get value for a player you shop them around.


While I agree it doesn't always happen
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In reference to concern about Joshua Dobbs' Knees

48 1/2ers wrote:
Ostriches have inverted knees and they're pretty athletic...


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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3182
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counselor wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
Counselor wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
My belief personally is elway values players in this draft. I think either A) he's working on a trade.B) He thinks he can nab,4 starters in this draft that's why you didn't see us involved in the ravens trade for Jernigan who no doubt adds too depth and the team.


Not every GM is involved in every trade scenario in the league. It's very possible the Eagles reached out to Baltimore and Denver wasn't even aware Jernigan was on the block.


That would be extremely stupid on the Ravens part if you want to get value for a player you shop them around.


While I agree it doesn't always happen



and there's a reason Panthers and ravens got rid of starters in order to move up 20 picks in the draft. You rarely see that and it happened twice in one off-season. Panthers with Ealy and ravens with Jernigan. I truly believe gms think you can get first round talent in round 3. And the Broncos have 4 picks in the top 100 so we're in great shape.
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 6952
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broncofan wrote:

That's fair about Rd 1 - but it only extends to Rd 1. In 2013, he whiffed on Ball Rd 2 - in the next half round, Eddie Lacy, Travis Kelce, Tyronne Mathieu, Terron Armstead, Keenan Allen & Brian Winters all go. All of them would have helped our team immensely. At least he got Kayvon Webster Rd 3, wasn't a complete bust. In 2014, we passed on Jack Mewhort in Rd 2 to get Cody Latimer - we then compounded it by going Schofield Rd 3 - while Schofield might be OK this season as a starting G, Mewhort has been a starting LG since halfway through his rookie season. In 2015 we take Sambrailo at T Rd 2 before Frank Clark, Rd 3 with Huermann where DE's Trey Flowers & Henry Anderson went. Just a string of failed Rd 2/3 picks for Elway. He clearly reached for Sambrailo badly, and in doing so, then passed on a key area we needed last year (3-4 DE). So not just who he passed on, but who he picks OL-wise, has had a huge ripple effect in other areas of our team. And to be fair, I don't know that anyone can give Elway a pass on Marpet, since Max Garcia was drafted as a C - so going after Marpet would have been entirely justifiable, as DEN saw a C who could play G with Garcia (same deal with Marpet). Now Mewhort eventually kicked inside, but getting Mewhort as a starting LG would have enabled us to spend FA $ elsewhere, same deal with finding a 3-4 DE now. If we don't have to spend on Leary, and had a run-stopping 3-4 DE with pass rush ability to pair with Wolfe, we'd be looking like a very different 2017 team (and frankly 2016 could have gone very differently with better interior OL and run D play, those guys would have clearly helped).

That's part of the philosophy issue AKRNA is alluding to - not just about Rd 2-3, but we've always de-prioritized OL in the draft and even in FA. Then compounded it by mostly busy picks for our OL. Now getting Leary is a sign we're not going to stick with that philosophy, so that's encouraging but FA is expensive. I also think drafting with a present-year mentality is clearly not the best, since rookies make a bigger impact Year 2 onwards, so thinking with the Year 1 mentality is flawed - thinking 2018+ this year is more likely to be productive IMO. Had we done that in 2015 Rd 2-3, 3-4 DE would have been ID'd as a priority, with perhaps different results with any of those 3 DE's. It's why I think CB has to get picked sometime in our first 4 picks this year, by 2018+ we will be looking for one, and they are even more expensive if you want a difference maker in FA.

Now, it's easy to cherrypick on a couple of picks, there's no guarantees Elway would have hit on any of the alternatives I highlighted, but Elway's failures in Rd 2-3 and the failures to internally develop OL are legit issues, now that the T/G positions are being valued so highly in FA, the ability to find bargains there is much less likely than before.

Now, again, I have no problem if we pass on T in Rd 1 if there's an elite perennial Pro-Bowl ceiling difference maker that falls (Foster, Reddick, Davis as examples) - but Elway's biggest flaw in the draft has been Rd 2-3, and his 2nd biggest is his failure to develop O with the draft, and OL except for Franklin & Paradis in his 5-year career as GM (Clady was before his time). Again, this is an overhauled FO, and they've made changes in the scouting department, so it's a fresh slate. But this is absolutely a make or break year for Elway draft-wise - our ability to perennially contend is based on Elway's ability to restock in bargain FA & the draft. Elway's misses in Rd 2-3 have been masked by his bargain FA finds - but the bargain FA's are usually only 1-2 year deals, so the need to keep hitting is there with bargain FA each & every year. This really exposed us last year, when Elway whiffed. You hit on the draft beyond Rd 1, get 4 year 2+ starters (Year 1 is a pipe dream to have that many), and the margin for error goes way down in FA.


Thanks BF. You clarified my point.

There's another FO issue where we're failing badly, one that 67 mentioned a few days ago, that being the inability to retain our drafted players.

Of the 23 players we drafted between 2011-13, 13 are still in the NFL but only 3 are Bronco's. Not one player remains from our 2013 draft class.

As 67 pointed out, that's unsustainable. Of the 23 drafted since, 20 are still on the roster which is good but given past history that'll change quick.

I think Elways philosophy of letting players hit FA and letting the market decide their value has to change. Someone will always overpay!

I read an article where BB explained his philosophy, far different than Elways. Basically, he decides in 3 years if he wants to and can keep a player, then either offers him an extension or trades him.

The extension locks up a player below market value by giving him a substantial raise in the last year of his rookie deal. The trade gets him compensation for a player that he probably can't re-sign. Tough to argue with his success.

Anyway, I like Elway a lot, but think as a GM he's still on a learning curve. [/list]
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually don't mind Elway's approach to letting players walk if they ask for more than what we believe they are worth, but the caveat is that you need to draft well to replace them. Elway did not draft well to replace Trevathan, Jackson, and Sly Williams. He did draft well to potentially replace Ward with Simmons.

The comp pick system is one good teams use wisely and can benefit greatly from. I agree we shouldn't have paid Jackson, but in hindsight, we should have paid Danny and not paid Anderson. Hindsight is always 20/20 though.

There's also a part of the front office world people overlook a lot. Denver does right by their players by and large. That does wonders for perception. They also need to balance not paying so much with being a place that agents steer their clients to. Being too hard line hurts with perception, and being too generous with cash gets you into cap hell.
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Broncofan


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
I actually don't mind Elway's approach to letting players walk if they ask for more than what we believe they are worth, but the caveat is that you need to draft well to replace them. Elway did not draft well to replace Trevathan, Jackson, and Sly Williams. He did draft well to potentially replace Ward with Simmons.

The comp pick system is one good teams use wisely and can benefit greatly from. I agree we shouldn't have paid Jackson, but in hindsight, we should have paid Danny and not paid Anderson. Hindsight is always 20/20 though.

There's also a part of the front office world people overlook a lot. Denver does right by their players by and large. That does wonders for perception. They also need to balance not paying so much with being a place that agents steer their clients to. Being too hard line hurts with perception, and being too generous with cash gets you into cap hell.


Exactly. It's why taking a 2018+ approach to the 2017 draft is a better overall approach. Young guys take time and the draft allows cheap replacements for guys who get too expensive to keep. There was no way we could keep Malik or Trevathan. But all of those Rd 2-3 misses prevented us from finding out future successors there. It's why getting a CB this year in one if our first 4 picks in Rds 2-3 makes complete sense. $$$ FA fills 1-2 needs at most and value FA can fill a need for a year or two but the draft is the way rofill for 3-4 years at a time.
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This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
I actually don't mind Elway's approach to letting players walk if they ask for more than what we believe they are worth, but the caveat is that you need to draft well to replace them. Elway did not draft well to replace Trevathan, Jackson, and Sly Williams. He did draft well to potentially replace Ward with Simmons.

The comp pick system is one good teams use wisely and can benefit greatly from. I agree we shouldn't have paid Jackson, but in hindsight, we should have paid Danny and not paid Anderson. Hindsight is always 20/20 though.

There's also a part of the front office world people overlook a lot. Denver does right by their players by and large. That does wonders for perception. They also need to balance not paying so much with being a place that agents steer their clients to. Being too hard line hurts with perception, and being too generous with cash gets you into cap hell.


I don't mind that either. Where I think he fails is by allowing players to become FA's before he starts discussions on extensions.

Neither DT nor Von should ever been allowed to reach FA. Letting thee "market" decide their value is a very expensive proposition. Roby will be the next. If we see him as our future starter this is the time to negotiate an extension, not when he becomes a FA.
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broncos67


Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
I actually don't mind Elway's approach to letting players walk if they ask for more than what we believe they are worth, but the caveat is that you need to draft well to replace them. Elway did not draft well to replace Trevathan, Jackson, and Sly Williams. He did draft well to potentially replace Ward with Simmons.

The comp pick system is one good teams use wisely and can benefit greatly from. I agree we shouldn't have paid Jackson, but in hindsight, we should have paid Danny and not paid Anderson. Hindsight is always 20/20 though.

There's also a part of the front office world people overlook a lot. Denver does right by their players by and large. That does wonders for perception. They also need to balance not paying so much with being a place that agents steer their clients to. Being too hard line hurts with perception, and being too generous with cash gets you into cap hell.


I don't mind that either. Where I think he fails is by allowing players to become FA's before he starts discussions on extensions.

Neither DT nor Von should ever been allowed to reach FA. Letting thee "market" decide their value is a very expensive proposition. Roby will be the next. If we see him as our future starter this is the time to negotiate an extension, not when he becomes a FA.


Von was absolutely the right decision because we got to exercise a cheaper fifth year option. DT, yes, they shouldn't have tagged him and waited, but at the same time, his deal is a steal at this point for his production.
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