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Rebuilding and QB's and the Draft
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AZBearsFan


Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 13030
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IronMike84 wrote:
Chicago sports radio for the past six years: "Anybody but Cutler! ANYBODY! Oh but he's tradable for a first round pick."

Chicago sports radio in January: "Cutler makes elite QB money, and that's a problem! Trade him for a late pick!"

Chicago sports radio this past week: "Mike Glennon?! Cutler is better than that guy! AND cheaper! Keep him!"

Tis the birdsong of the common Chicago Fairweather Dolt. Scientific name: Bearsfanicus Moronicus.

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Epyon


Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 327
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chewtoy wrote:
Just read that the rumored glennon contract would be he cheapest in the league for a starter not on a rookie deal.

Good news, guys. This doesn't preclude a qb draft. It is a prelude to it.


Still doesn't really make sense to me... Is Mike Glennon really the guy to groom our QB of the future behind? He's not exactly a savvy veteran himself, and all but Webb and Kaaya are infinitely more mobile options, which means we'd have to have different schemes.

I mean, I know the QBs of this class all need time, but I'd legitimately rather start them all over Glennon and just fully embrace the punted season and get the rookies actual game experience, while the team gets better draft position.
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Chewtoy


Joined: 16 Aug 2014
Posts: 11
Location: St. Louis
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You misunderstand AZ, I'm ot saying Jay is a bad teammate. I'm saying he might become one if he lost his job, and/or the locker room might divide to rally behind him. The beauty of Mike Glennon is that he ISN'T a 6 time captain, which makes it easier to transition away from him.
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Chewtoy


Joined: 16 Aug 2014
Posts: 11
Location: St. Louis
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, this may surprise everyone, but I'm not Ryan Pace. I don't know what he is thinking. That said, the recent history of franchises trying to develop franchise Quarterbacks almost always starts with bringing in a "Glennon" caliber Qb to hold down the fort. Recent top 10 picks:

2016:
Goff --> Rams brought in Case Keenum to start
Wentz --> Eagles brought in Chase Daniels to compete

2015:
Winston--> Had to beat out Glennon
Mariotta --> Had to beat out Zach Mettenberg
Bortles --> Jags brought in Chad Henne to Compete

2012:
Luck had no real competition. Colts traded Manning to clear the way.
Griffin and Cousins were drafted together
Tannenhill --> Had to beat out Chad Henne

2011:
Newton: --> beat out Jimmy Clausen and Matt Moore
Locker -- Failed to beat out Matt Hasselbeck
Gabbert --> Jags brought in Luke McCown to compete

2010:
Bradford: No real competition. Rams cut Bulger to clear the way.

To me, the pattern is clear. Teams in the top 10 who draft a Qb get rid of veteran Qb presences, then bring in middling Qb talent who have not yet been given an opportunity. That lowers the bar for young Qb's coming in to win the starting job, it gives teams another (albeit low probability) opportunity to find "the guy" if the patsy in question is young/has not yet exhausted their upside, and it removes the conflict of interest in the locker room.

That last point can't be stated more emphatically. Phrased another way, nobody in the locker room except for a young Qb benefits from going through a learning curve with a young Qb. Players have their own careers to worry about, Wr's and linemen have contract incentives to live up to, impending free agents know that they will be more appealing if they play for a winning club and/or they have the best opportunity to showcase their talent. In short, there are a lot of reasons why veterans in the locker room might rally behind Jay Cutler, even if Jay Cutler isn't in the long term best interest of the franchise. Historically, that has lead to teams unloading Bradfords, Sanchezes, Bulgers, and even Peyton Manning. Its not because they stopped being good Qb's, it is because their very presence would undermine a rookie trying to establish himself in the NFL.

Meanwhile, the guys they brought in were all pretty much Mike Glennon. Some of them were less proven and cheaper, but they were all variations on the same theme. Young Qb who knows how to run an NFL offense but has never established themselves as a star. They were hedge bets - guys who you didn't believe in but who you could at least talk yourself into thinking there might be some upside left if you had a couple of beers first.

So I'm not Ryan Pace. I don't know what he is doing. But if I were Ryan Pace and I were going to draft a Qb high in this draft, the first thing I would do is get rid of Jay Cutler. The second thing I would do is bring in someone the caliber of (or slightly worse than) Mike Glennon.

Just my opinion.
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CBears019


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Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chewtoy wrote:
You misunderstand AZ, I'm ot saying Jay is a bad teammate. I'm saying he might become one if he lost his job, and/or the locker room might divide to rally behind him. The beauty of Mike Glennon is that he ISN'T a 6 time captain, which makes it easier to transition away from him.


Just to play devils advocate...cutler is what 33? 34 years old now? He's gotta know better than anyone else that his career is coming to an end and the Bears are planning for life without him. That likely means a rookie qb somewhere in this draft. Cutler really doesn't lose anything by taking the rookie under his wing.

Glennon on the other hand, he's still trying to prove something. He's trying to become a franchise, not this bridge everyone views him as. He has a lot to lose by the Bears drafting a rookie qb.
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AZBearsFan wrote:

He's a playmaker though, and we can use more of those in the Devin.Fart
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Chewtoy


Joined: 16 Aug 2014
Posts: 11
Location: St. Louis
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CBears019 wrote:
Just to play devils advocate...cutler is what 33? 34 years old now? He's gotta know better than anyone else that his career is coming to an end and the Bears are planning for life without him. That likely means a rookie qb somewhere in this draft. Cutler really doesn't lose anything by taking the rookie under his wing.

Glennon on the other hand, he's still trying to prove something. He's trying to become a franchise, not this bridge everyone views him as. He has a lot to lose by the Bears drafting a rookie qb.


History says that isn't what would happen, though.

1.) We have evidence of a divided locker room when cutler was benched previously for McCown/Clausen
2.) We have evidence that Glennon was a good teammate when replaced previously (The bucs want to keep him even though he was replaced as a starter by a #1 overall pick).
3.) Glennon would have no real locker room leverage. He isn't a team leader, he isn't an established star, he has no rapport with the veterans on the team.

More to the point, though, look around. This is what teams do when they bring in rookies. They get rid of veterans even if they have some gas left (see manning, sanchez, bradford, bulger, etc) and they bring in a replaceable guy. If that replaceable guy has potential, that seems to be a plus, but it isn't essential. Their chief quality seems to be their replace-ability.

I struggle to find examples of vets who transitioned cleanly to young guys. The pack had Favre and then Rodgers, but they reportedly hated each other. The colts went right from Manning to Luck, but they unloaded Manning first. History is not rife with examples of vets who humbly stepped down while training their replacement.

Cutler might know his clock is ticking, but I would wager he still thinks he can play in this league. That makes a rookie first rounder the enemy. The approach most teams seem to take is to bring in competition for rookies that are less threatening so that the locker room isn't against them before they have a chance to assume a leadership role.
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topwop1


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 7676
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
IronMike84 wrote:
Chicago sports radio for the past six years: "Anybody but Cutler! ANYBODY! Oh but he's tradable for a first round pick."

Chicago sports radio in January: "Cutler makes elite QB money, and that's a problem! Trade him for a late pick!"

Chicago sports radio this past week: "Mike Glennon?! Cutler is better than that guy! AND cheaper! Keep him!"

Tis the birdsong of the common Chicago Fairweather Dolt. Scientific name: Bearsfanicus Moronicus.

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LOL I have say that I got a good chuckle out of this.

Mainly because I am one of those guys who wants them to trade Cutler for a late round pick and I initially overreacted a bit at the Glennon news by saying that they would probably be better off just keeping Cutler over signing Glennon at that much money, but I take that last comment back.

I guess that makes me a Bearsfanicus Moronicus. Laughing
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TankWilliams


Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 16896
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
IronMike84 wrote:
Chicago sports radio for the past six years: "Anybody but Cutler! ANYBODY! Oh but he's tradable for a first round pick."

Chicago sports radio in January: "Cutler makes elite QB money, and that's a problem! Trade him for a late pick!"

Chicago sports radio this past week: "Mike Glennon?! Cutler is better than that guy! AND cheaper! Keep him!"

Tis the birdsong of the common Chicago Fairweather Dolt. Scientific name: Bearsfanicus Moronicus.

Like button x 10,000


Where do I fall on the spectrum, since I don't like the Mike Glennon signing (if he costs 15 million) but still think that Cutler should be done as a Bear despite getting unfair hate from Chicago for the entirety of his career? Haven't thought he's had any trade value for the last 2-3 years. Laughing
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 15885
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not like the Glennon contract, but I have no interest in Cutler taking another snap for the Bears.


Lets play a game of predict the Bears depth chart,

1. Mike Glennon

He gets 2017 as his year to prove something. It will be more interesting at least than watching Hoyer check down or Cutler turn the ball over.

2. Nate Peterman [2nd/3rd round]

I think they liked him at the Senior Bowl, he has starter physical tools, and he can sit.

3. Conner Shaw

They like him he has some tools and should provide a good scout team QB. Has starts and could play if Glennon is injured and Peterman is not ready.
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 6477
Location: World Championsville
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Glennon is the QB that Pace likes, then just take Kaaya in round 3. Kaaya is pretty accurate when he has a clean pocket and is in rhythm, I'm pretty sure Pace knows that Glennon needs the same thing -- smoother transition.



And G08 goes to the corner, arms folded, and frowns.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft

jrry32 wrote:
apples

When the defense allows 20 pts or fewer, the Cutler-led Bears were 36-7
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gah112


Joined: 30 Jan 2015
Posts: 691
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think Kaaya has the same type of arm. Glennon was known for that as a prospect.
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gah112 wrote:
I don't think Kaaya has the same type of arm. Glennon was known for that as a prospect.


Kaaya doesn't have near the arm strength of Glennon, IMO, but he's deadly accurate when he's clean. It just seems like Pace wants Drew Brees. He wants all [inappropriate/removed] things New Orleans.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft

jrry32 wrote:
apples

When the defense allows 20 pts or fewer, the Cutler-led Bears were 36-7
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 6477
Location: World Championsville
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Laughing Crying or Very sad
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft

jrry32 wrote:
apples

When the defense allows 20 pts or fewer, the Cutler-led Bears were 36-7
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CBears019


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Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:


Laughing Crying or Very sad



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AZBearsFan wrote:

He's a playmaker though, and we can use more of those in the Devin.Fart
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AZBearsFan


Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 13030
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CBears019 wrote:
G08 wrote:


Laughing Crying or Very sad



We're gonna have so many of these by December...
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