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51to54


Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epyon wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Epyon wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:

Your criticism of Watson as a "paint by numbers guy" in your Mahomes puff piece here is interesting considering Mahomes runs the most quick read, get it out as fast as possible offense in the country. Watson' ability or inability to read the whole field is no more an unknown than Mahomes, for the same reason. Neither was asked to do it in college.

I'm surprised that there's as much support for Mahomes here as there is. He is the epitome of Jay Cutler as a prospect. Unrefined mechanics. Pick-it-stick-it thrower who overtrusts his elite arm talent. Inconsistent throwing platform. Hell, he even has the same frat boy look. He's literally the closest thing to Jay Cutler as a prospect SINCE Jay Cutler.


Neither was ASKED to do it, however one of them was FORCED to do it. Watson got to sit pretty behind a clean pocket most of the time. His offensive line was good, his run game was good, and his receiving targets where exceptional.....

As far as over trusting his arm.... You do realize he had SIGNIFICANTLY lower INTs by % compared to Watson, right? And that he did that without the aforementioned running game, offensive line, or receivers that Clemson had?

You're letting a hatred of Jay Cutler cloud your judgement, imo.... Mahomes ain't Cutty... He posted -significantly- higher accuracy %, significantly lower INT% and much higher yards/attempt..... Homeslice Watson only manages to beat Cutty out in 2 of those categories. I see signifcantly more Brett Favre... or even post play breakdown Aaron Rodgers to Mahomes than I do Cutler... Mahomes reads the field and either throw to an open man, or throws the receiver open far more often than he throws a jump ball..... if anyone scares me for their Cutler like potential of this class, I'd argue it's actually Watson.... there's a multitude of plays where he looks at his receiver and goes "Is he open? Screw it, JUMP BALL"...... Now part of that is being able to trust his receivers to win those contested catches, like Mike Williams-WR.... but is that really all that different from how Jay Cutler throws/forces passes to Alshon?

Wait - you think that a HATRED OF JAY CUTLER is clouding MY judgment?

ME???!

Are you [inappropriate/removed] kidding me???


I don't care whether you claim to be a fan of Cutler or not, the post I was responding to made it pretty clear that you did not want Mahomes, specifically because he reminds you of Cutler.... and that being similar to Cutler would be a powerfully bad thing that makes Mahomes undraftable....

The insinuation that being so similar to Cutler would be such a massive negative thing is why I commented that you are being blinded by Cutler hate.... to the point where any strong armed "gunslinger" instantly makes you apprehensive.... particularly when the I don't believe the comparison to be particularly accurate, and especially when I think the quarterback that you are championing IS far more Cutler like in some respects.

As I said, I see much more Brett Favre, post play breakdown Aaron Rodgers, or on the lesser end of the spectrum Mathew Stafford to Mahomes.... He makes tons of crazy, improvised throws.... but he actually does take care of the ball pretty damn well, and is very rarely actually throwing into heavy coverage.

Watson on the other hand, scares me significantly more as a prospect, because you frequently see him throwing the same kind of passes at Mike Williams that Jay seemingly loves to force at Alshon, and the same kind of streaks where his pinpoint accuracy just randomly turns into "in the general direction of".....

Now after saying that, I actually still have Watson as my #2 QB, because he does have some things going for him that are also pretty damn important... He never gets rattled for starters. He's a very hard working, and by all accounts intelligent guy.... (and we've seen from Peyton Manning's career the benefits that an obsessive class room guy, who will relentlessly prepare for gameday can produce even without elite physical traits). He's also a running threat, he's got very high maturity, and he's a natural leader. All those things are wonderful to have, but I don't think he's so far ahead of Mahomes in any of those things to discount the areas that Mahomes excels in, namely arm strength, improvisation, ability to throw from non traditional platforms, anticipation of pressure, anticipation of throwing windows, anticipation of receiver positioning, reaction time, faster footwork, significantly better ball placement, and significantly better decision making regarding throwing into coverage.


I like Mahome and hated Cutler (his game not him), but agree both are Cutler-like QB.

Difference is Cutler came to the Bears at 26 and he is what he is and expensive. Cutler came to the Bears with an NFL 54 TD and 37 INT stat line.

Mahomes is 22 and still has potential to correct his problems and is much cheaper. Mahomes career numbers are 93 TD and 29 INT (Cutler college 59TD and 36 INT)
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dll2000


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saw Peppers at combine and just watched his highlight reel this morning.

Highlights are crap for evaluating, but its telling that almost none of highlights are in coverage. Mostly all sacks, runs, returns and big hits.

I think that's a case of what he was asked to do and doesn't mean he can't cover. But you would like to see it.

Heck after watching the highlights he might be best RB in this draft if that was his position. Hes a beast with ball in his hands and is built like a RB.

Seeing him at combine talking and interacting with people you can tell he is a cocky bastard with a ton of self confidence. I see that as a good thing.

You want alpha males on your team. As many as you can get. He comes off to me as an alpha.

If he shows he can cover I'd want him for sure, otherwise he reminds me of Cash out of Duke who Carolina is trying to make into a LB because he never covered in college.
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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epyon wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Epyon wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:

Your criticism of Watson as a "paint by numbers guy" in your Mahomes puff piece here is interesting considering Mahomes runs the most quick read, get it out as fast as possible offense in the country. Watson' ability or inability to read the whole field is no more an unknown than Mahomes, for the same reason. Neither was asked to do it in college.

I'm surprised that there's as much support for Mahomes here as there is. He is the epitome of Jay Cutler as a prospect. Unrefined mechanics. Pick-it-stick-it thrower who overtrusts his elite arm talent. Inconsistent throwing platform. Hell, he even has the same frat boy look. He's literally the closest thing to Jay Cutler as a prospect SINCE Jay Cutler.


Neither was ASKED to do it, however one of them was FORCED to do it. Watson got to sit pretty behind a clean pocket most of the time. His offensive line was good, his run game was good, and his receiving targets where exceptional.....

As far as over trusting his arm.... You do realize he had SIGNIFICANTLY lower INTs by % compared to Watson, right? And that he did that without the aforementioned running game, offensive line, or receivers that Clemson had?

You're letting a hatred of Jay Cutler cloud your judgement, imo.... Mahomes ain't Cutty... He posted -significantly- higher accuracy %, significantly lower INT% and much higher yards/attempt..... Homeslice Watson only manages to beat Cutty out in 2 of those categories. I see signifcantly more Brett Favre... or even post play breakdown Aaron Rodgers to Mahomes than I do Cutler... Mahomes reads the field and either throw to an open man, or throws the receiver open far more often than he throws a jump ball..... if anyone scares me for their Cutler like potential of this class, I'd argue it's actually Watson.... there's a multitude of plays where he looks at his receiver and goes "Is he open? Screw it, JUMP BALL"...... Now part of that is being able to trust his receivers to win those contested catches, like Mike Williams-WR.... but is that really all that different from how Jay Cutler throws/forces passes to Alshon?

Wait - you think that a HATRED OF JAY CUTLER is clouding MY judgment?

ME???!

Are you [inappropriate/removed] kidding me???


I don't care whether you claim to be a fan of Cutler or not, the post I was responding to made it pretty clear that you did not want Mahomes, specifically because he reminds you of Cutler.... and that being similar to Cutler would be a powerfully bad thing that makes Mahomes undraftable....

The insinuation that being so similar to Cutler would be such a massive negative thing is why I commented that you are being blinded by Cutler hate.... to the point where any strong armed "gunslinger" instantly makes you apprehensive.... particularly when the I don't believe the comparison to be particularly accurate, and especially when I think the quarterback that you are championing IS far more Cutler like in some respects.

As I said, I see much more Brett Favre, post play breakdown Aaron Rodgers, or on the lesser end of the spectrum Mathew Stafford to Mahomes.... He makes tons of crazy, improvised throws.... but he actually does take care of the ball pretty damn well, and is very rarely actually throwing into heavy coverage.

Watson on the other hand, scares me significantly more as a prospect, because you frequently see him throwing the same kind of passes at Mike Williams that Jay seemingly loves to force at Alshon, and the same kind of streaks where his pinpoint accuracy just randomly turns into "in the general direction of".....

Now after saying that, I actually still have Watson as my #2 QB, because he does have some things going for him that are also pretty damn important... He never gets rattled for starters. He's a very hard working, and by all accounts intelligent guy.... (and we've seen from Peyton Manning's career the benefits that an obsessive class room guy, who will relentlessly prepare for gameday can produce even without elite physical traits). He's also a running threat, he's got very high maturity, and he's a natural leader. All those things are wonderful to have, but I don't think he's so far ahead of Mahomes in any of those things to discount the areas that Mahomes excels in, namely arm strength, improvisation, ability to throw from non traditional platforms, anticipation of pressure, anticipation of throwing windows, anticipation of receiver positioning, reaction time, faster footwork, significantly better ball placement, and significantly better decision making regarding throwing into coverage.

What part, specifically, of what I wrote said to you that I wouldn't be fine with Mahomes? I like Mahomes. I don't want have his babies like you do and it's all good that you're as high on him as you are (we all have our guy), but Mahomes is definitely a legit QB prospect with gigantic upside. I'm totally fine with it if we end up with Mahomes. My comments were to your criticism of the half read offense Watson ran when Mahomes operated a very similar passing game, and to the irony that while he's SO similar to Cutler skill set wise people really like Mahomes as a prospect when people so roundly despise Cutler himself. I expected people to dislike him as a potential next QB far more than they do due in no small part to Cutler fatigue.
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dll2000


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2696068-reuben-foster-sent-home-from-nfl-combine-after-argument-with-hospital-worker?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-national

Not smart
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gah112


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
What part, specifically, of what I wrote said to you that I wouldn't be fine with Mahomes? I like Mahomes. I don't want have his babies like you do and it's all good that you're as high on him as you are (we all have our guy), but Mahomes is definitely a legit QB prospect with gigantic upside. I'm totally fine with it if we end up with Mahomes. My comments were to your criticism of the half read offense Watson ran when Mahomes operated a very similar passing game, and to the irony that while he's SO similar to Cutler skill set wise people really like Mahomes as a prospect when people so roundly despise Cutler himself. I expected people to dislike him as a potential next QB far more than they do due in no small part to Cutler fatigue.


I think Cutler's personality and demeanor have a lot to do with people disliking him. Mahomes seems to have a completely different personality and may be perceived as different from Cutler for that reason alone.

Anyone who criticizes the simplicity of Watson's college offense has to ask similar questions of Mahomes and Trubisky.
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dll2000


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gah112 wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
What part, specifically, of what I wrote said to you that I wouldn't be fine with Mahomes? I like Mahomes. I don't want have his babies like you do and it's all good that you're as high on him as you are (we all have our guy), but Mahomes is definitely a legit QB prospect with gigantic upside. I'm totally fine with it if we end up with Mahomes. My comments were to your criticism of the half read offense Watson ran when Mahomes operated a very similar passing game, and to the irony that while he's SO similar to Cutler skill set wise people really like Mahomes as a prospect when people so roundly despise Cutler himself. I expected people to dislike him as a potential next QB far more than they do due in no small part to Cutler fatigue.


I think Cutler's personality and demeanor have a lot to do with people disliking him. Mahomes seems to have a completely different personality and may be perceived as different from Cutler for that reason alone.

Anyone who criticizes the simplicity of Watson's college offense has to ask similar questions of Mahomes and Trubisky.


The criticism of college QBs offense is over blown. There are like 22 - 30 or so passing concepts in football mostly based on Don Coryell's and everybody uses some of them from high school to pros.

Biggest dif in levels is NFL QB doesn't run by design (except Cam Newton) - so take all that out of offense.

Now your reads are harder because that usually means an extra rusher (less time) and deeper initial drop by faster 2nd level players because their run/pass read is easier (and they are faster). You have to gun it into a small window and the right window - why so few can do it.

In pros they are often asking QB to run protections as well. Most don't do that in college. In college play calling is simple its often one word for one concept and off they go so they can go fast and wear down a defense.

In pros a lot of coaches verbalize everything and all the assignments plus an audible or hot. So it gets really long and QB has to know every position assignment.

What you are looking for (aside from size, accuracy and talent - which a lot of people have in shorts and a t-shirt) is can a QB process a lot of information fast when bullets are flying. Will he work and have passion like a Payton Manning who changed the standard of QB prep to that of a coach? Can he take a hit?
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Epyon


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
Matt Miller Post Combine Mock

1[3] QB Mitchell Trubisky [UNC]
2[36] S Budda Baker [Wahington]
3[67] CB Kevin King [Washington]
4[111]OLB Tyus Bowser [Houston]
4[117] WR Josh Reynolds [Texas A&M]
5[147] CB Brian Allen [Utah]
7[220] WR Ar'Darius Stewart [Alabama]

Tears of joy.



Miller gave New England Christian McCaffrey in round 1, and Evan Engram in round 2...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfE1Ip2wot4

If that draft happens.... Brady is going to run out of fingers for all the rings.
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topwop1


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epyon wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Matt Miller Post Combine Mock

1[3] QB Mitchell Trubisky [UNC]
2[36] S Budda Baker [Wahington]
3[67] CB Kevin King [Washington]
4[111]OLB Tyus Bowser [Houston]
4[117] WR Josh Reynolds [Texas A&M]
5[147] CB Brian Allen [Utah]
7[220] WR Ar'Darius Stewart [Alabama]

Tears of joy.



Miller gave New England Christian McCaffrey in round 1, and Evan Engram in round 2...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfE1Ip2wot4

If that draft happens.... Brady is going to run out of fingers for all the rings.


I'll be really surprised if Engram lasts until the end of the 2nd. Dude killed the combine and will be in demand.

If I'm the Bears I'm targeting him with their early 2nd.

As for Miller's mock, I actually really like it!
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
NFL Media reporter Kimberly Jones passes along that at least one team has LSU S Jamal Adams atop their draft board.

This team is not among those picking high up in the draft, as they referred to Adams as a "wish list" player. The LSU product reportedly aced his interviews in Indianapolis over the weekend. He indicated to Jones that he might re-run the 40-yard dash at the Tigers' pro day on April 5 after running a quiet 4.56 at the Combine.


Very interesting that someone has him #1...if it wasn't for Hooker I would love Adams even more than I do and have no issue with the 4.56 forty...the leadership also seems like a major plus point.
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G08


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
Quote:
NFL Media reporter Kimberly Jones passes along that at least one team has LSU S Jamal Adams atop their draft board.

This team is not among those picking high up in the draft, as they referred to Adams as a "wish list" player. The LSU product reportedly aced his interviews in Indianapolis over the weekend. He indicated to Jones that he might re-run the 40-yard dash at the Tigers' pro day on April 5 after running a quiet 4.56 at the Combine.


Very interesting that someone has him #1...if it wasn't for Hooker I would love Adams even more than I do and have no issue with the 4.56 forty...the leadership also seems like a major plus point.


With all this smoke around Glennon, I'm resigned to the fact that we likely will be drafting Adams #3 overall.

I think we then observe the draft keenly and if someone we love at QB falls, we will trade up for him. If not... Kaaya or Peterman in round 3.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Quote:
NFL Media reporter Kimberly Jones passes along that at least one team has LSU S Jamal Adams atop their draft board.

This team is not among those picking high up in the draft, as they referred to Adams as a "wish list" player. The LSU product reportedly aced his interviews in Indianapolis over the weekend. He indicated to Jones that he might re-run the 40-yard dash at the Tigers' pro day on April 5 after running a quiet 4.56 at the Combine.


Very interesting that someone has him #1...if it wasn't for Hooker I would love Adams even more than I do and have no issue with the 4.56 forty...the leadership also seems like a major plus point.


With all this smoke around Glennon, I'm resigned to the fact that we likely will be drafting Adams #3 overall.

I think we then observe the draft keenly and if someone we love at QB falls, we will trade up for him. If not... Kaaya or Peterman in round 3.


I still wouldn't take Adams over Hooker tho...Adams is a great prospect...Hooker is a special one...you add Gilmore and Hooker to this defence and your ability to defend the pass goes up 10 fold.
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G08


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
G08 wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Quote:
NFL Media reporter Kimberly Jones passes along that at least one team has LSU S Jamal Adams atop their draft board.

This team is not among those picking high up in the draft, as they referred to Adams as a "wish list" player. The LSU product reportedly aced his interviews in Indianapolis over the weekend. He indicated to Jones that he might re-run the 40-yard dash at the Tigers' pro day on April 5 after running a quiet 4.56 at the Combine.


Very interesting that someone has him #1...if it wasn't for Hooker I would love Adams even more than I do and have no issue with the 4.56 forty...the leadership also seems like a major plus point.


With all this smoke around Glennon, I'm resigned to the fact that we likely will be drafting Adams #3 overall.

I think we then observe the draft keenly and if someone we love at QB falls, we will trade up for him. If not... Kaaya or Peterman in round 3.


I still wouldn't take Adams over Hooker tho...Adams is a great prospect...Hooker is a special one...you add Gilmore and Hooker to this defence and your ability to defend the pass goes up 10 fold.


Can't take Hooker at 3, especially with those injuries. He'd make a ton of sense in a trade down.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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51to54


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bearsfan323 wrote:
51to54 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Matt Miller Post Combine Mock

1[3] QB Mitchell Trubisky [UNC]
2[36] S Budda Baker [Wahington]
3[67] CB Kevin King [Washington]
4[111]OLB Tyus Bowser [Houston]
4[117] WR Josh Reynolds [Texas A&M]
5[147] CB Brian Allen [Utah]
7[220] WR Ar'Darius Stewart [Alabama]

Tears of joy.


Go with the one of the most grounded QB in the draft. Good.

Load up on secondary help in one of the deepest DB drafts in decades. Great.

Double taps WR to replace Jeffery's and probably White. Okay, see below.

If we go rookie at number 3 then we'd better load up on some more Oline help and a great running game or great safety net TE to help take the pressure off of the rookie.

If they sign Wagner, what position would you like to be addressed on the OL? The only option is LT and this class sucks.

I'm not real up to date on available FA or draft Oline, but Wagner should be enough to allow the team to give a rookie QB more breathing room. Even an older guy like the Bengals' Andrew Whitworth could work out because he only has to be 'good enough' for another season or two until the rookie QB gets his first two seasons under his belt. I'd assume that we don't get either of these two so we'd probably be looking at adding veteran Oline depth for guys that could step in and provide viable protection when a starter goes down.

By adding at least one more decent starter or close starter to the Oline this allows the draft to load up on a quality depth position (secondary) this season when the getting is good and then look for better Oline prospects next draft. However, if we go rookie QB at 3 then I'd swap out at least one of the other picks with a TE if we don't find an upgrade in FA.

Same with Cutler when we got him. We bring in a pro bowl QB and then let him get his brains and body beat to death for 2-3 seasons with no one to throw to and little protection. I'd sacrifice a great value pick DB in this draft for a legit starting TE or even starter level Oline backup.
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
G08 wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Quote:
NFL Media reporter Kimberly Jones passes along that at least one team has LSU S Jamal Adams atop their draft board.

This team is not among those picking high up in the draft, as they referred to Adams as a "wish list" player. The LSU product reportedly aced his interviews in Indianapolis over the weekend. He indicated to Jones that he might re-run the 40-yard dash at the Tigers' pro day on April 5 after running a quiet 4.56 at the Combine.


Very interesting that someone has him #1...if it wasn't for Hooker I would love Adams even more than I do and have no issue with the 4.56 forty...the leadership also seems like a major plus point.


With all this smoke around Glennon, I'm resigned to the fact that we likely will be drafting Adams #3 overall.

I think we then observe the draft keenly and if someone we love at QB falls, we will trade up for him. If not... Kaaya or Peterman in round 3.


I still wouldn't take Adams over Hooker tho...Adams is a great prospect...Hooker is a special one...you add Gilmore and Hooker to this defence and your ability to defend the pass goes up 10 fold.


Can't take Hooker at 3, especially with those injuries. He'd make a ton of sense in a trade down.


Hooker will be 100% by the time the off season program starts so injuries have nothing to do with it and Hooker is the better player.
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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
G08 wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
G08 wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Quote:
NFL Media reporter Kimberly Jones passes along that at least one team has LSU S Jamal Adams atop their draft board.

This team is not among those picking high up in the draft, as they referred to Adams as a "wish list" player. The LSU product reportedly aced his interviews in Indianapolis over the weekend. He indicated to Jones that he might re-run the 40-yard dash at the Tigers' pro day on April 5 after running a quiet 4.56 at the Combine.


Very interesting that someone has him #1...if it wasn't for Hooker I would love Adams even more than I do and have no issue with the 4.56 forty...the leadership also seems like a major plus point.


With all this smoke around Glennon, I'm resigned to the fact that we likely will be drafting Adams #3 overall.

I think we then observe the draft keenly and if someone we love at QB falls, we will trade up for him. If not... Kaaya or Peterman in round 3.


I still wouldn't take Adams over Hooker tho...Adams is a great prospect...Hooker is a special one...you add Gilmore and Hooker to this defence and your ability to defend the pass goes up 10 fold.


Can't take Hooker at 3, especially with those injuries. He'd make a ton of sense in a trade down.


Hooker will be 100% by the time the off season program starts so injuries have nothing to do with it and Hooker is the better player.

Not for nothing, but if we aren't taking a QB at 3 then we should be thrilled with either of them. Both look to be 10 year studs. With that said, if we aren't taking a QB at 3 I want us to do everything we can to trade down.
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