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MOSteelers56


Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 6531
Location: Anywheresville Missouri
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chieferific wrote:
MOSteelers56 wrote:
AlanFanecaFan wrote:
Barwin to the Rams for $6.5 mill...would've been a great add on a reasonable deal like that.

This is getting ridiculous.

Maybe he wasn't interested in coming here. I bet he wanted to play for Wade.

Yes. Maybe he didn't want to stand up and play OLB. Maybe he prefers DE.

Actually I think the Rams are moving to the 3-4 under Wade Phillips. We reached out to him but he may have told our FO that he was only interested in a few places. He only visited the Bengals(he went to cinci for college) and the Rams(he played under their DC with the Texans).
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BigSnack


Joined: 04 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MOSteelers56 wrote:
Chieferific wrote:
MOSteelers56 wrote:
AlanFanecaFan wrote:
Barwin to the Rams for $6.5 mill...would've been a great add on a reasonable deal like that.

This is getting ridiculous.

Maybe he wasn't interested in coming here. I bet he wanted to play for Wade.

Yes. Maybe he didn't want to stand up and play OLB. Maybe he prefers DE.

Actually I think the Rams are moving to the 3-4 under Wade Phillips. We reached out to him but he may have told our FO that he was only interested in a few places. He only visited the Bengals(he went to cinci for college) and the Rams(he played under their DC with the Texans).


Ya he is gonna be standing up again for the Rams, but I am not disappointed at all that he is not here. He has lost more than a couple steps the last few years and is no where close to the player he was.
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Dook wrote:
D.Revis24 wrote:
What was his injury last season that forced him to miss 5 games?


Yeast infection.
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KJtheWicked


Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 1856
Location: Norrisville, Pa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DR43 wrote:
KJtheWicked wrote:
DR43 wrote:
KJtheWicked wrote:
DR43 wrote:
Any decent corners remaining?


Claiborne. But if he wants one of these $10m/yr deals then I'd pass. I'd give maybe 4yr/30m. Plus I heard Baltimore wants him, so it'd be nice to steal one from them.


I don't understand why you wouldn't still go for him even if he wants $10 million a year. The ONLY way we're getting by the pats is if we upgrade our corners. We're going to be saving quiet a bit of money once Ben retires so lets go for it now.


I might give him 10, but it would be heavily incentive laden. Not a lot of guaranteed money. As far as the Pats go, 2 things to consider. 1, we've played them 3 times in the last 15 years in the playoffs. Why does everyone want to build the team primarily to beat them?


Who else is the team to beat?

KJtheWicked wrote:
2, one CB isn't going to beat the Pats should we play them in the playoffs.


I didn't say it would. We need multiple corners to beat NE.

KJtheWicked wrote:
A better defensive scheme is what's going to beat them. Look, I'm frustrated about this free agency period too. I'm all for spending some money to upgrade the team. But they gotta be careful not to wind up with a bad contract on a guy who comes in and bombs.


If there is a time for a bad contract it's now. Over pay for someone to field the best team on the field. When else do you see being a SB contender after Ben retires?


Well, we play 13 different teams during the regular season, so those are the teams to beat too. And once again, our scheme is why we lost. We could've put 11 CBs out there, Brady still would've tore us up. You don't beat Brady with CBs, you beat him with pressure. If you give him all day to throw you have no chance.

I am disappointed that they didn't at least bring some of these CBs in for visits, but I think they're doing the right thing when it comes to these absurd contracts. There was no FA CB this year that was worth $10m/yr. Not one.
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DR43


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seattle is willing to part ways with Richard Sherman for the right deal. Let's get him! Any ides what draft picks we would have to part ways with?
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DR43


Joined: 05 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KJtheWicked wrote:
DR43 wrote:
KJtheWicked wrote:
DR43 wrote:
KJtheWicked wrote:
DR43 wrote:
Any decent corners remaining?


Claiborne. But if he wants one of these $10m/yr deals then I'd pass. I'd give maybe 4yr/30m. Plus I heard Baltimore wants him, so it'd be nice to steal one from them.


I don't understand why you wouldn't still go for him even if he wants $10 million a year. The ONLY way we're getting by the pats is if we upgrade our corners. We're going to be saving quiet a bit of money once Ben retires so lets go for it now.


I might give him 10, but it would be heavily incentive laden. Not a lot of guaranteed money. As far as the Pats go, 2 things to consider. 1, we've played them 3 times in the last 15 years in the playoffs. Why does everyone want to build the team primarily to beat them?


Who else is the team to beat?

KJtheWicked wrote:
2, one CB isn't going to beat the Pats should we play them in the playoffs.


I didn't say it would. We need multiple corners to beat NE.

KJtheWicked wrote:
A better defensive scheme is what's going to beat them. Look, I'm frustrated about this free agency period too. I'm all for spending some money to upgrade the team. But they gotta be careful not to wind up with a bad contract on a guy who comes in and bombs.


If there is a time for a bad contract it's now. Over pay for someone to field the best team on the field. When else do you see being a SB contender after Ben retires?


Well, we play 13 different teams during the regular season, so those are the teams to beat too. And once again, our scheme is why we lost. We could've put 11 CBs out there, Brady still would've tore us up. You don't beat Brady with CBs, you beat him with pressure. If you give him all day to throw you have no chance.

I am disappointed that they didn't at least bring some of these CBs in for visits, but I think they're doing the right thing when it comes to these absurd contracts. There was no FA CB this year that was worth $10m/yr. Not one.


Do you agree that we have to go to man to man against Brady? If so, we're going to need corners who are going to be able to handle his receivers. That's how we beat the pats in 2011. The year before we got destroyed by them when we had the best pass rush in the league because we played zone.
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KJtheWicked


Joined: 30 Dec 2007
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Location: Norrisville, Pa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DR43 wrote:
KJtheWicked wrote:
DR43 wrote:
KJtheWicked wrote:
DR43 wrote:
KJtheWicked wrote:
DR43 wrote:
Any decent corners remaining?


Claiborne. But if he wants one of these $10m/yr deals then I'd pass. I'd give maybe 4yr/30m. Plus I heard Baltimore wants him, so it'd be nice to steal one from them.


I don't understand why you wouldn't still go for him even if he wants $10 million a year. The ONLY way we're getting by the pats is if we upgrade our corners. We're going to be saving quiet a bit of money once Ben retires so lets go for it now.


I might give him 10, but it would be heavily incentive laden. Not a lot of guaranteed money. As far as the Pats go, 2 things to consider. 1, we've played them 3 times in the last 15 years in the playoffs. Why does everyone want to build the team primarily to beat them?


Who else is the team to beat?

KJtheWicked wrote:
2, one CB isn't going to beat the Pats should we play them in the playoffs.


I didn't say it would. We need multiple corners to beat NE.

KJtheWicked wrote:
A better defensive scheme is what's going to beat them. Look, I'm frustrated about this free agency period too. I'm all for spending some money to upgrade the team. But they gotta be careful not to wind up with a bad contract on a guy who comes in and bombs.


If there is a time for a bad contract it's now. Over pay for someone to field the best team on the field. When else do you see being a SB contender after Ben retires?


Well, we play 13 different teams during the regular season, so those are the teams to beat too. And once again, our scheme is why we lost. We could've put 11 CBs out there, Brady still would've tore us up. You don't beat Brady with CBs, you beat him with pressure. If you give him all day to throw you have no chance.

I am disappointed that they didn't at least bring some of these CBs in for visits, but I think they're doing the right thing when it comes to these absurd contracts. There was no FA CB this year that was worth $10m/yr. Not one.


Do you agree that we have to go to man to man against Brady? If so, we're going to need corners who are going to be able to handle his receivers. That's how we beat the pats in 2011. The year before we got destroyed by them when we had the best pass rush in the league because we played zone.


I agree that zone is not the answer. I'd say we need to jam their WRs at the line, but the main thing is pressuring Brady. More specifically, pressuring him up the middle. His timing and rhythm might be the best in NFL history, you have to disrupt that. Even the best CBs can only hold their coverage for so long. When he can sit back and make his reads he will pick you apart, regardless of who you have at CB.

Look I'm not disputing that we have a need at CB, I'm just saying it's not smart overpaying for a mediocre one. I mean, I liked several of these guys, just not at $10m/yr. They're playing it smart and not panicking over what Ben is gonna do.
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KJtheWicked wrote:

I agree that zone is not the answer. I'd say we need to jam their WRs at the line, but the main thing is pressuring Brady. More specifically, pressuring him up the middle. His timing and rhythm might be the best in NFL history, you have to disrupt that. Even the best CBs can only hold their coverage for so long. When he can sit back and make his reads he will pick you apart, regardless of who you have at CB.

Look I'm not disputing that we have a need at CB, I'm just saying it's not smart overpaying for a mediocre one. I mean, I liked several of these guys, just not at $10m/yr. They're playing it smart and not panicking over what Ben is gonna do.


Now here's where I disagree with a lot of you and what you say about "overpaying" a guy.

Take your mind off what the AAV of these contracts are and look at the guaranteed money aspect and how many years that the guaranteed money is payed over.

Take AJ Bouye, and learning that 5 years $67.5 mil is the offer. It's absurd it's $13.5 mil AAV. But then look at the fact that it's $26 mil guaranteed payed over 3 years. So really his contract is $8.6 mil per year, and that other $5mil is what he gets extra for being around, and most of that is set into the years where there's no guaranteed money.

The guaranteed money tells me much more about the contract than the overall value.

Outside of Stephone Gilmore, the corners aren't really getting as much money as you really think. the guaranteed money isn't all that high.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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Dcash4


Joined: 21 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warfelg wrote:
KJtheWicked wrote:

I agree that zone is not the answer. I'd say we need to jam their WRs at the line, but the main thing is pressuring Brady. More specifically, pressuring him up the middle. His timing and rhythm might be the best in NFL history, you have to disrupt that. Even the best CBs can only hold their coverage for so long. When he can sit back and make his reads he will pick you apart, regardless of who you have at CB.

Look I'm not disputing that we have a need at CB, I'm just saying it's not smart overpaying for a mediocre one. I mean, I liked several of these guys, just not at $10m/yr. They're playing it smart and not panicking over what Ben is gonna do.


Now here's where I disagree with a lot of you and what you say about "overpaying" a guy.

Take your mind off what the AAV of these contracts are and look at the guaranteed money aspect and how many years that the guaranteed money is payed over.

Take AJ Bouye, and learning that 5 years $67.5 mil is the offer. It's absurd it's $13.5 mil AAV. But then look at the fact that it's $26 mil guaranteed payed over 3 years. So really his contract is $8.6 mil per year, and that other $5mil is what he gets extra for being around, and most of that is set into the years where there's no guaranteed money.

The guaranteed money tells me much more about the contract than the overall value.

Outside of Stephone Gilmore, the corners aren't really getting as much money as you really think. the guaranteed money isn't all that high.


I'm not that cap savy, so maybe I don't look at this right -- but the only number I care about is your cap number and how that hinders the future. The cap number I see on two different sites after this year for AJ is $15.5 a year. If that's his true cap number....helllllllllll no.

Again I may not be seeing/understanding this right so Please correct me if I'm wrong but that's pretty insane for a one year wonder.
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dcash4 wrote:
warfelg wrote:
KJtheWicked wrote:

I agree that zone is not the answer. I'd say we need to jam their WRs at the line, but the main thing is pressuring Brady. More specifically, pressuring him up the middle. His timing and rhythm might be the best in NFL history, you have to disrupt that. Even the best CBs can only hold their coverage for so long. When he can sit back and make his reads he will pick you apart, regardless of who you have at CB.

Look I'm not disputing that we have a need at CB, I'm just saying it's not smart overpaying for a mediocre one. I mean, I liked several of these guys, just not at $10m/yr. They're playing it smart and not panicking over what Ben is gonna do.


Now here's where I disagree with a lot of you and what you say about "overpaying" a guy.

Take your mind off what the AAV of these contracts are and look at the guaranteed money aspect and how many years that the guaranteed money is payed over.

Take AJ Bouye, and learning that 5 years $67.5 mil is the offer. It's absurd it's $13.5 mil AAV. But then look at the fact that it's $26 mil guaranteed payed over 3 years. So really his contract is $8.6 mil per year, and that other $5mil is what he gets extra for being around, and most of that is set into the years where there's no guaranteed money.

The guaranteed money tells me much more about the contract than the overall value.

Outside of Stephone Gilmore, the corners aren't really getting as much money as you really think. the guaranteed money isn't all that high.


I'm not that cap savy, so maybe I don't look at this right -- but the only number I care about is your cap number and how that hinders the future. The cap number I see on two different sites after this year for AJ is $15.5 a year. If that's his true cap number....helllllllllll no.

Again I may not be seeing/understanding this right so Please correct me if I'm wrong but that's pretty insane for a one year wonder.


One of his years his cap hot is $15.5 mil. But that's a year of about $7mil guaranteed. So if the Jags were to but him they would save $8.5mil.

Guaranteed money stays on your cap no matter what.

So anything outside of guaranteed money is essentially "play money", meaning when the contract is written anything outside of guaranteed money doesn't have to pay.

Hence why more contracts, late years are paid higher, but are considered "Dummy Money".

Here's AJ Bouye's contract for example:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/jacksonville-jaguars/a.j.-bouye-12795/

You notice how at any point if you add together what has been paid out in years 1 & 2 base salary + signing bonus is what the dead cap goes down by.

So Bouye's base salary in years 1 & 2 is guaranteed. After that his Base Salary isn't guaranteed, so you see that they save that amount. The signing bonus always has to be paid, and it's spread over the length of the contract.

Take a look at Antonio's new contract. 4 years $68mil, $19mil guaranteed.

So if we cut him right now we would sustain a cap hit of the left over restructured money+the $19 mil in guaranteed contracts.

In 2018, $3.8 mil of his guaranteed money comes off the books, meaning dead money would be $15.2 million.

In each year of his contract only his signing bonus is guaranteed, and it was spread evenly over his contract. So over the span of Brown's contract he's going to get $19mil at least. We incur the hit if we cut him early of whatever guaranteed money we had yet to pay. So essentially $49 mil of Browns contract is money we don't have to pay him.

So back to a guy like Bouye:
In reality the Jags are only really paying him $26mil over 5 years, with $20 mil of it payed over 2 years.

So really Bouye signed a 2 year $20mil contract. With an extra $6mil over 3 years that are basically 3 $13mil option deals that the team has the right to refuse at any point.

Dre Kirkpatrick:
Signed a 5 year $52.5 mil deal with $12 mil guaranteed. So you want the nuts thing about his contract?

His deal is basically a 1 year $6.4 mil deal, where there is another $5.6 mil that the Bengals HAVE to pay out to him, but the other $40 mil is all basically "option" money for the Bengals.

So lets say they cut him after this year, the Bengals are free of $40 mil and only on the hook for another $5.6 mil.

So all in all, the overall contract value means very little. The guaranteed money and how it breaks down is much more important. Which is why I am very against contract restructures. What you are doing is converting money you never had to pay to someone, making it guaranteed, and redistributing it to a later date.

So a restructuring. Let's say we did it with Heyward this year. All we would be doing is taking his $5mil in base, turning all but $1mil to bonus money, and pushing off that $4mil to a later time and now we HAVE to pay him that.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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wwhickok


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DR43 wrote:
Seattle is willing to part ways with Richard Sherman for the right deal. Let's get him! Any ides what draft picks we would have to part ways with?


#1, I don't want Shernan in Pittsburgh. Seattle.Is finally realizing he is overrated.

#2 I'd say a minimum of a 1st, 2nd, and Future 1st probabky
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warfelg


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
DR43 wrote:
Seattle is willing to part ways with Richard Sherman for the right deal. Let's get him! Any ides what draft picks we would have to part ways with?


#1, I don't want Shernan in Pittsburgh. Seattle.Is finally realizing he is overrated.

#2 I'd say a minimum of a 1st, 2nd, and Future 1st probably


On point #1.....ummmm he was still a top 3 corner last year.

Quote:
I don’t think Richard Sherman has played as well this season as in years past, but he remains one of the league’s toughest corners to beat, despite being given more responsibility than most. Sherman has been asked to track some receivers this season, and overall, he has allowed a passer rating of only 59.1 when targeted, remaining the league’s toughest corner to complete a pass on, going 16.2 snaps in coverage for every reception he allows—the best mark in the league, and 1.4 snaps higher than the next-best figure.


If Seattle thinks that 59.1 passer rating when targeted and 16.2 snaps for every reception is overrated I will take that on this team 366 days a year.

Point #2.....doubt they end up getting that much.

Unsaid point #3 on all of these:
If we trade for Sherman Seattle incurs a cap hit of $4,400,000 and we have to make sure we have $9,231,000 in cap space this year, as well as having $13.2mil in cap space next year and likely prepping an extension for him because his contract runs out after the 2018 season.[/quote]
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
DR43 wrote:
Seattle is willing to part ways with Richard Sherman for the right deal. Let's get him! Any ides what draft picks we would have to part ways with?


#1, I don't want Shernan in Pittsburgh. Seattle.Is finally realizing he is overrated.

#2 I'd say a minimum of a 1st, 2nd, and Future 1st probabky


Laughing

Sherman would easily be the best CB we had here since Rod Woodson. EAS-I-LY.

That being said, it will never happen. Steelers prefer to grow their own talent, for the most part, which is why they will never sign or trade for elite talents (unless its a perfect storm ala getting Jerome Bettis for amazing value.)
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BigSnack


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
wwhickok wrote:
DR43 wrote:
Seattle is willing to part ways with Richard Sherman for the right deal. Let's get him! Any ides what draft picks we would have to part ways with?


#1, I don't want Shernan in Pittsburgh. Seattle.Is finally realizing he is overrated.

#2 I'd say a minimum of a 1st, 2nd, and Future 1st probabky


Laughing

Sherman would easily be the best CB we had here since Rod Woodson. EAS-I-LY.

That being said, it will never happen. Steelers prefer to grow their own talent, for the most part, which is why they will never sign or trade for elite talents (unless its a perfect storm ala getting Jerome Bettis for amazing value.)



If we were to trade for a cb and have to pay them money id rather have butler at this point
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Dook wrote:
D.Revis24 wrote:
What was his injury last season that forced him to miss 5 games?


Yeast infection.
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steelcurtain29


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

$6.5 million for Barwin isn't reasonable at all. We don't have $50 million to play with. We're at what, $23 million?

We can't waste 1/4 on a situational pass rusher that's depth. It's one thing if he's a 1-2 year stop-gap; but he's not.

I don't get the rush for us to sign these FA. Our biggest needs can't be met in FA this year. Why waste current and future cap space when it's not needed?
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warfelg


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steelcurtain29 wrote:
$6.5 million for Barwin isn't reasonable at all. We don't have $50 million to play with. We're at what, $23 million?

We can't waste 1/4 on a situational pass rusher that's depth. It's one thing if he's a 1-2 year stop-gap; but he's not.

I don't get the rush for us to sign these FA. Our biggest needs can't be met in FA this year. Why waste current and future cap space when it's not needed?


It's not like they're gonna give us a medal for not spending it.

And who cares if he's just a situation pass rusher, you can never have enough pass rush. Spending $6.5, which is actually only a $3.5 mil deal with potential of another $3 mil in incentives, on a 30 year old who can give us about 30-40% snap usage and give Harrison some breaks is 100% worth it in my mind.

Especially considering right now our Depth is:
Harrison - old as crap
Dupree - still learning
Moats - sucky
Chickilo - Run down OLB at best

I rather have Barwin at a potential of $6.5 mil over Moats at whatever he's making.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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