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PFT: BROWNS TO GO AFTER KIRK COUSINS ?
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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Location: MD/DC/VA depends on the hr!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
I'm just resigned to the fact that he won't sign here because the idiots upstairs completely botched this whole offseason. That we will seen the Colt McCoy 2.0 era and watch the team slide back into the cellar. Heck, I wouldn't put it past them to draft Mitch Trubisky or Deshaun Watson at 17 because they are that sort of stupid.
I wouldn't be shocked either if they did that but I would hope it's after we had traded away Kirk for the 49ers, Browns or Jets top 10 pick in return for Cousins and then took a top 10 front 7 player.


You're so funny, turtle. You still think they'd do the intelligent thing.
Well, they've shocked us before like in 2014. Anything is possible, not likely but possible.
What was intelligent in 2014? Funny you're ignoring 2015 and 2016. You know, the years that we won a division and were 1 game out of the playoffs, with some guy named McCloughan in charge.
Everyone who has a brain knows that 2014 set up the foundation for 2015 and 16. It was probably this organizations best offseason since 04 when we drafted Sean, Cooley and signed Clark, Daniels, Springs, Marcus Washington and Cornelius Griffith.

Especially when you consider we didn't have a first round pick and we drafted 4 guys who are starting caliber and two starters in free agency.
They didn't help us in 2014. We went 4-12. Oh wait, are you arguing they needed time to develop to become contributors? Hmmm, funny that you're condemning the 2015 and 2016 offseasons so much then. Shouldn't you wait to see how they develop first?
They were starters and key contributors in 2015 too as was Djax who made huge plays down the strech and Hatcher.

I'm condemning the 2015 & 16 offseasons because McCloughan. Didn't improve our defense.

You know, the one you blame everything on the former defensive coordinator for when the GM constantly passed on defensive talent which would have helped turn our horrible 2013 & 14 defenses around.

He also didn't do didly poo for the defense in free agency - except for Norman after his franchise tag was rescinded - and he didn't spend $20 million last year that we had left to spend on our defense in free agency.

Instead we went with DAvid Burton - as his prized safety acquisition, huh? He was cut before half the season was up as was Kendall freakin Reyes! Laughing Shocked

2015 acquisitions: Chris Culliver bust! Terrance Knighton, Dashon Goldson busts! Stephen Paea bust! Jerron Johnson bust!

How on gods green earth can you defend that other than by saying they were cheap and we could dump them after 1 year?

Here's the thing, that's not McCloughan's job! It's Allen and Schaffer who did an amazing job on the contracts so we could get out of them easy when McCloughan's selections busted.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, we're going to rag on McCloughan for free agent misses in '15 and '16, but we'll just step over the '14 class? Where's the vaunted investment there? Shanahan was gone and McCloughan wasn't hired yet. So what did "Big Brain" Bruce do there?

Jason Hatcher - signed 4 year, $27.5M
Clifton Geathers - signed 2 year, $3.2M deal
Adam Heyward - signed 3 year, $3M deal
Darryl Sharpton - signed 1 year, $2M deal
Akeem Jordan - signed 1 year $0.92M deal
Tracy Porter - signed 2 year, $6M deal
Ryan Clark - signed 1 year, $1.02M deal

Plus some doozies of re-signs:
Brian Orakpo (via the franchise tag)
Rob Jackson
Brandon Meriweather
EJ Biggers
Perry Riley

Only decent moves:
Chris Baker
DeAngelo Hall (okay, that one was okay)


I've skipped over the offense, but we can do that too, if you'd like. Just know that the best that came out of that was signing Shawn Lauvao.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
So, we're going to rag on McCloughan for free agent misses in '15 and '16, but we'll just step over the '14 class? Where's the vaunted investment there? Shanahan was gone and McCloughan wasn't hired yet. So what did "Big Brain" Bruce do there?

Jason Hatcher - signed 4 year, $27.5M
Clifton Geathers - signed 2 year, $3.2M deal
Adam Heyward - signed 3 year, $3M deal
Darryl Sharpton - signed 1 year, $2M deal
Akeem Jordan - signed 1 year $0.92M deal
Tracy Porter - signed 2 year, $6M deal
Ryan Clark - signed 1 year, $1.02M deal

Plus some doozies of re-signs:
Brian Orakpo (via the franchise tag)
Rob Jackson
Brandon Meriweather
EJ Biggers
Perry Riley

Only decent moves:
Chris Baker
DeAngelo Hall (okay, that one was okay)


I've skipped over the offense, but we can do that too, if you'd like. Just know that the best that came out of that was signing Shawn Lauvao.
Desean Jackson.

All I'm saying is that they were better than McCloughan's because of Djax & Hatcher gave us two good years on a deal we could get out of. He was our best DL while he was here and the only one who was constantly doubled.

McCloughan was supposed to be Mr can't miss talent evaluator and expected his moves to be a lot better than they were. I really expected him to turn our d around but he put little investment into it and it hurt our whole team.
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Last edited by turtle28 on Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:35 am; edited 2 times in total
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MKnight82


Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Posts: 19354
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
So, we're going to rag on McCloughan for free agent misses in '15 and '16, but we'll just step over the '14 class? Where's the vaunted investment there? Shanahan was gone and McCloughan wasn't hired yet. So what did "Big Brain" Bruce do there?

Jason Hatcher - signed 4 year, $27.5M
Clifton Geathers - signed 2 year, $3.2M deal
Adam Heyward - signed 3 year, $3M deal
Darryl Sharpton - signed 1 year, $2M deal
Akeem Jordan - signed 1 year $0.92M deal
Tracy Porter - signed 2 year, $6M deal
Ryan Clark - signed 1 year, $1.02M deal

Plus some doozies of re-signs:
Brian Orakpo (via the franchise tag)
Rob Jackson
Brandon Meriweather
EJ Biggers
Perry Riley

Only decent moves:
Chris Baker
DeAngelo Hall (okay, that one was okay)


I've skipped over the offense, but we can do that too, if you'd like. Just know that the best that came out of that was signing Shawn Lauvao.
Desean Jackson.

All I'm saying is that they were better than McCloughan's because of Djax & Hatxher gave us two good years on a deal we could get out of. He was our best Dal while he was here and the only one who was constantly doubled.
Wait, we can't count Josh Norman as a successful free agent signing because he "fell into our laps", but we can count Desean Jackson? That is ridiculous.
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ripsean21


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
I'm just resigned to the fact that he won't sign here because the idiots upstairs completely botched this whole offseason. That we will seen the Colt McCoy 2.0 era and watch the team slide back into the cellar. Heck, I wouldn't put it past them to draft Mitch Trubisky or Deshaun Watson at 17 because they are that sort of stupid.
I wouldn't be shocked either if they did that but I would hope it's after we had traded away Kirk for the 49ers, Browns or Jets top 10 pick in return for Cousins and then took a top 10 front 7 player.


You're so funny, turtle. You still think they'd do the intelligent thing.
Well, they've shocked us before like in 2014. Anything is possible, not likely but possible.
What was intelligent in 2014? Funny you're ignoring 2015 and 2016. You know, the years that we won a division and were 1 game out of the playoffs, with some guy named McCloughan in charge.
Everyone who has a brain knows that 2014 set up the foundation for 2015 and 16. It was probably this organizations best offseason since 04 when we drafted Sean, Cooley and signed Clark, Daniels, Springs, Marcus Washington and Cornelius Griffith.

Especially when you consider we didn't have a first round pick and we drafted 4 guys who are starting caliber and two starters in free agency.
They didn't help us in 2014. We went 4-12. Oh wait, are you arguing they needed time to develop to become contributors? Hmmm, funny that you're condemning the 2015 and 2016 offseasons so much then. Shouldn't you wait to see how they develop first?
They were starters and key contributors in 2015 too as was Djax who made huge plays down the strech and Hatcher.

I'm condemning the 2015 & 16 offseasons because McCloughan. Didn't improve our defense.

You know, the one you blame everything on the former defensive coordinator for when the GM constantly passed on defensive talent which would have helped turn our horrible 2013 & 14 defenses around.

He also didn't do didly poo for the defense in free agency - except for Norman after his franchise tag was rescinded - and he didn't spend $20 million last year that we had left to spend on our defense in free agency.

Instead we went with DAvid Burton - as his prized safety acquisition, huh? He was cut before half the season was up as was Kendall freakin Reyes! Laughing Shocked

2015 acquisitions: Chris Culliver bust! Terrance Knighton, Dashon Goldson busts! Stephen Paea bust! Jerron Johnson bust!

How on gods green earth can you defend that other than by saying they were cheap and we could dump them after 1 year?

Here's the thing, that's not McCloughan's job! It's Allen and Schaffer who did an amazing job on the contracts so we could get out of them easy when McCloughan's selections busted.


But who's to say Scot didn't want higher tier FA's who either chose other teams or Bruce didn't want to pony up for? In the end every FA signing is a stopgap and not something you expect to fill a position for the next 10 years. Scot's vision was not to have us in the SB last year or he probably could have elected for better pieces. Culliver and Paea were both injured a lot. In the end he was infusing a roster for the next 10 years through the draft and many here just like in the FO spoke about patience but when it came down to it had none. We can only hope we can execute the draft as close to Scot's plan as we can this year because we have to nail this one! I don't hate Bruce but he shouldn't have any say in personnel decisions with this team! You have been one of the main ones banging for Kirk to get paid. I think it's clear who is the one holding that up and as you, yourself has said without Kirk we will be setback for years to come.

I agree Scot wasn't perfect. But literally him being quiet in FA was never a problem for me. We need to focus on our own guys and with the rest of our money that's who we should focus on. Idc where Kirk wants to go because if Brucewas the one holding up a deal if I'm Snyder Bruce is gone. Not because whatever happened with Scot but because Snyder has to understand without this QB this fanbase is going to do more then what they did for Scot. You let this QB leave after every asset we just gave away on the wrong guy just to pick this one with our own pick you better lock him up. But we see how things are ran here! Kirk knows that and that's why it isn't even just about the money! He knows this organization is waisting his time and he isn't so desperate for money to just take whatever offer because if he leaves he knows he has options that could benefit him. But Like Scot or not he knew the best situation for Kirk all along and if he had his way not only are we financially in a better place which is what Bruce is supposed to do, but this team this offseason could have maybe attracted a Brandon Williams or Poe and gotten a multi year deal with Pryor or whoever they could have wanted. I'm not normally the firing type but Bruce invited the McCloughan situation for better or worse! The situation and its handling and just overall effect on this team are grounds enough to warrant his pink slip. That said we will see how much Snyder cares about keeping fans here and winning! Because he's 2 serious decisions from removing a lot more seats out of Fed Ex!!
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
They were starters and key contributors in 2015 too as was Djax who made huge plays down the strech and Hatcher.
Right. But not in 2014. Who's to say what Josh Doctson, Sua Cravens, Kendall Fuller, etc will do for our team in 2017.

turtle28 wrote:
I'm condemning the 2015 & 16 offseasons because McCloughan. Didn't improve our defense.
He spent a bunch of draft picks on defense. Its too soon to see how they'll pan out.

turtle28 wrote:
You know, the one you blame everything on the former defensive coordinator for when the GM constantly passed on defensive talent which would have helped turn our horrible 2013 & 14 defenses around.
OMG. That makes so much sense. I've always wondered why you hate McCloughan so much. Its because you blame him for your uncle Joe Barry losing his job. Hey newsflash, Joe Barry lost his job because he was a terrible coordinator.

turtle28 wrote:
He also didn't do didly poo for the defense in free agency - except for Norman after his franchise tag was rescinded - and he didn't spend $20 million last year that we had left to spend on our defense in free agency.
That $16 mil was carried over to our cap this year, which is why we have so much free cap space this season. But yeah go ahead and ignore that.

turtle28 wrote:
Instead we went with DAvid Burton - as his prized safety acquisition, huh? He was cut before half the season was up as was Kendall freakin Reyes! Laughing Shocked
Bruton and Reyes were given very minimal contracts. Who cares? They were signed to be role players not saviors.

turtle28 wrote:
2015 acquisitions: Chris Culliver bust! Terrance Knighton, Dashon Goldson busts! Stephen Paea bust! Jerron Johnson bust!

How on gods green earth can you defend that other than by saying they were cheap and we could dump them after 1 year?
Because these guys were signed as stopgap placeholders, not long term solutions. The idea was to build through the draft, you know, the way good teams build their roster. Oh and you know, the way you used to want to build the team too (until it didn't fit your narrative anymore).

turtle28 wrote:
Here's the thing, that's not McCloughan's job! It's Allen and Schaffer who did an amazing job on the contracts so we could get out of them easy when McCloughan's selections busted.
They weren't busts. They were placeholders.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Desean Jackson.


MKnight82 already addressed this one. Let's have consistency.

Quote:
All I'm saying is that they were better than McCloughan's because of Djax & Hatcher gave us two good years on a deal we could get out of. He was our best DL while he was here and the only one who was constantly doubled.


So, wait, we got good quality out of Hatcher because we could get out of his deal after giving a guy at the end of his career way too much money, but we yell at McCloughan for trying on guys like Culliver whose deals we could get out as well? Again, consistency man.

As for DL, let's see:
DeMarcus Lawrence
Ra'Shede Hageman
Stephon Tuitt
Timmy Jernigan
Ego Ferguson (okay, maybe not)
Kony Ealy

All could have been had instead of Trent Murphy.

Or how about:
Will Sutton
Louis Nix
Kareem Martin
Khyri Thornton
Will Clarke

instead of Spencer Long?

No?

As others have pointed out REPEATEDLY, you trumpeted the Scherff over Williams pick. Do not deny this; you and I went round after round and round about it. This was fine at the time, but now is being marked as a demerit to McCloughan.

Again, CONSISTENCY.

Quote:
McCloughan was supposed to be Mr can't miss talent evaluator and expected his moves to be a lot better than they were. I really expected him to turn our d around but he put little investment into it and it hurt our whole team.


Scot McCloughan is part of the Ron Wolf/Green Bay tree of team development. The Packers almost rarely get involved in free agency; we could tell that was the way they were operating just by watching. So, what talent evaluation do you object to?

Scherff? You've stood on your head claiming this was a brilliant pick.
Smith? Is this a bust or was it a sophomore slump? I don't know. But it looked great in 2015, horrible in 2016.
Trading out of the top of the 3rd? I wasn't pleased about this admittedly, but the guy we ended up with (Matt Jones) you praised repeatedly until he was finally benched.
Crowder? Laughing
Kouandjio? Okay, this is a miss admittedly. But can we fault him here? What else should he have done?
Spaight? Don't know what we have here since he's only had a season.
Jarrett? GREAT PICK that got a career ending injury. Was this a mistake of Scot's?
Mitchel? We tried to put him through IR in camp but the Colts picked him up. Is that Scot's fault?
Spencer? Okay, a miss.
Reiter? A miss as well (but he hung around, and I think is with Cleveland?)

Is that your problem? Or is it the 2016 draft?

Doctson? Hell, I told you that this was a possibility well before that draft came up because of the way mocks were lining up. I was expecting it to be Treadwell, but I was fine with Doctson. The mistake with him was pushing him into playing, something I *also* said. That's a coach's call.
Cravens? Looks like a homing missile.
Fuller? I liked the pick because of the upside. Kid's got skills but was coming off an injury.
Trading out of the fourth? Admittedly, this was my BIGGEST gripe about that draft since Billings was right there. So, here's where I might agree with you. Of course, this allows us to have a 5th rounder this year where we wouldn't due to the Carrier deal.
Ioannidis? Best available DL, and a lunch pail kid. Do I expect much out of him? No, but it was an attempt.
Sudfeld? Sure, why not?
Daniels? Who knows what we have here since he was hurt?

So basically, as far as I can tell, you are ragging on McCloughan for a draft class in 2016 where he took the best players available while considering beyond the 2016 season's horizon ... something I have REPEATEDLY said is the job of the GM.

So, please, enlighten me. What could McCloughan have done better in your eyes as a talent evaluator? Let me guess, you'll say a DL instead of Doctson ignoring that the next three drafted barely played (Clark (27th) - 2 starts, Nkemdiche (28th) - 0 starts, Butler (29th) - 0 starts). Oh, but it's only their rookie season and they'll grow into their roles on the team?

CONSISTENCY.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the end of the day, McCloughan's gone and Allen's here.

So far, I have been significantly less than impressed in our free agency moves. It's a temporary push on WR, and an improvement at safety, but a major downgrade at defensive linemen while paying them significantly more than they likely expected.

If this is what McCloughan planned, then I'm significantly underwhelmed. However, I suspect all of the chaos that Allen and Snyder is what caused the massive contract explosions. On top of all of that, the chaos has also significantly weakened the team's ability to re-sign Kirk Cousins. This was Priority #1, and so far, it's been a complete botch.

Now, you can perhaps lay that at the feet of McCloughan. Maybe he's the one who didn't want to re-sign Kirk last year. Maybe not. We'll never know for sure.

However, the lack of new deal for Kirk right now is solely at Allen's feet now. Even if Kirk wouldn't sign a new deal, wouldn't it make sense to offer him a 5y/$24M AAV contract with significant guarantees, just to watch him decline it? Or if he signed it, wouldn't that help fix the PR nightmare that has enveloped the team for the past month? Kirk said "if you aren't going to pay me, trade me." Note the conditional clause there; he still might sign if he was offered a reasonable deal.

Simply put: where is the new contract? What's the hold up? It cannot be McCloughan anymore.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Casserly reads my mind:

https://youtu.be/U6_J7rqbLRc
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
So, we're going to rag on McCloughan for free agent misses in '15 and '16, but we'll just step over the '14 class? Where's the vaunted investment there? Shanahan was gone and McCloughan wasn't hired yet. So what did "Big Brain" Bruce do there?

Jason Hatcher - signed 4 year, $27.5M
Clifton Geathers - signed 2 year, $3.2M deal
Adam Heyward - signed 3 year, $3M deal
Darryl Sharpton - signed 1 year, $2M deal
Akeem Jordan - signed 1 year $0.92M deal
Tracy Porter - signed 2 year, $6M deal
Ryan Clark - signed 1 year, $1.02M deal

Plus some doozies of re-signs:
Brian Orakpo (via the franchise tag)
Rob Jackson
Brandon Meriweather
EJ Biggers
Perry Riley

Only decent moves:
Chris Baker
DeAngelo Hall (okay, that one was okay)


I've skipped over the offense, but we can do that too, if you'd like. Just know that the best that came out of that was signing Shawn Lauvao.
Desean Jackson.

All I'm saying is that they were better than McCloughan's because of Djax & Hatxher gave us two good years on a deal we could get out of. He was our best Dal while he was here and the only one who was constantly doubled.
Wait, we can't count Josh Norman as a successful free agent signing because he "fell into our laps", but we can count Desean Jackson? That is ridiculous.
I never said you couldn't count Norman. My point was he was pretty much a sure thing.

Now don't get all upset because most of the players who helped this team become a winner were not McCloughan guys.
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TheGreeK1973


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Casserly reads my mind:

https://youtu.be/U6_J7rqbLRc


Man you are going to upset a lot of people with this post. LOL.

I love when Charlie pointed out the Scherff move and he is exactly right when he said if Moses was not there it would have been a disaster. Spending a top 5 pick on a Guard with Williams seating there for the taking....
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Sheehan just reported that the latest deal thebskins offered the skins was 5 years, $100 million and $40 million guaranteed.

That's freakin laughably low! That wouldn't have gotten it done last year even!! Laughing

I don't freakin get it. Dan needs to shake Allen end not defer on him his one. They freakin gave Haynesworth this contract in 09! Twisted Evil
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheGreeK1973 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Casserly reads my mind:

https://youtu.be/U6_J7rqbLRc


Man you are going to upset a lot of people with this post. LOL.

I love when Charlie pointed out the Scherff move and he is exactly right when he said if Moses was not there it would have been a disaster. Spending a top 5 pick on a Guard with Williams seating there for the taking....
oh well, they need to quit crying about something that's done, it's not changing and what casserly says is 100% percent true. Ppl don't want to hear it because Sct was supposed to be our savior and the fanbase and media cult that is the D.C. Media sold it to us as such.
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lavar703


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you two disliked Scot so much that you're reasoning with Casserly? Do you have any idea how awful Charlie was as a GM?
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Woz


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheGreeK1973 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Casserly reads my mind:

https://youtu.be/U6_J7rqbLRc


Man you are going to upset a lot of people with this post. LOL.

I love when Charlie pointed out the Scherff move and he is exactly right when he said if Moses was not there it would have been a disaster. Spending a top 5 pick on a Guard with Williams seating there for the taking....


If only someone on the board had decried that mistake when it happened?

Oh wait, you mean most of the frigging board screamed and rent their garments when we passed on Williams? That the person who posted the video was one of the few who defended the pick?

Look, McCloughan's gone. We'll see what happens going forward. I think Casserly and Allen's backers here will be sorely disappointed.
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