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McGahee


Joined: 29 Nov 2005
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:33 pm    Post subject: Amari Cooper Questions Reply with quote

Hi all, doing some research on Amari Cooper.

I was expecting him to break out this season - and he played well, but not the the extent that I anticipated.
Now I know his first 8 games had him on pace for quite an impressive season, but didn't really finish well. What caused the slowdown?

Do you foresee him climbing up into the elite tier of WRs next season, joining the ranks of OBJ, Evans, Julio and AB? Or is he destined to be a great #2 next to Crabtree (until Crab retires)?

How will the change of coordinators from Musgrave to Downing affect Cooper?
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Jamethus92


Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He was used as more of a decoy down the stretch. The team acknowledged the need to get the ball to Cooper more, but Carr's finger injury limited the passing game all around and the offense seemed committed to playing small ball at times. Too often Musgrave (or whoever was play-calling) fell in love with WR screens that would net Coop like 2 or 3 yards. It was clear he was being underutilized.

Nobody is really sure what to expect from Downing. In an ideal world, he will turn Carr loose and allow him to push the ball down the field more run more no-huddle. Many were happy with the overall results of Musgrave as OC in terms of wins, points, and offensive ranking but many others felt like he was too conservative and often went dink-and-dunk to no avail.
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attack_in_s/b


Joined: 11 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jamethus92 wrote:
He was used as more of a decoy down the stretch. The team acknowledged the need to get the ball to Cooper more, but Carr's finger injury limited the passing game all around and the offense seemed committed to playing small ball at times. Too often Musgrave (or whoever was play-calling) fell in love with WR screens that would net Coop like 2 or 3 yards. It was clear he was being underutilized.

Nobody is really sure what to expect from Downing. In an ideal world, he will turn Carr loose and allow him to push the ball down the field more run more no-huddle. Many were happy with the overall results of Musgrave as OC in terms of wins, points, and offensive ranking but many others felt like he was too conservative and often went dink-and-dunk to no avail.


I for one felt like musgrave held our offence back. Not to downplay the importance of the coordinator but when you've got an MVP caliber qb you don't necessarily need to be a great play caller. I think Carr hid musgrave a limitations but there's a lot I would do differently. Play calling with a lead was awful all year. Dink and dunked way too much considering I felt we were a big play offence. Didn't see enough shots down field.

In terms of cooper, he said teams were rolling coverage to his side and doubling him a lot. I also know he was banged up the 2nd half of the season, it seemed the 100 yard games really came to a halt immediately after he hit the injury report. IMO the play calling didn't help - to me coopers best weapon at this point is the deep ball - has the straight line speed to burn, route running skills are exceptional, and he can make the spectacular catch. When cooper was slumping we really did not give him many big play opportunities and imo that is the best way to get him involved and make defences back off opening things up underneath.

To me the main thing stopping cooper from breaking into that elite tier is consistency. When he's on his game I think he's already elite, we've seen him take over games and hit 100 by half time. I think a lot of it comes down to musgrave. His inconsistency even within the same game is unusual - we all know he has a tendency to go invisible in the 2nd half even when he's had a monster 1st half. Obviously teams make half time adjustments to slow down cooper but I think musgrave would get complacent with that and just opt to call plays elsewhere. That's fine but it's a balance, you can't force the ball to a guy the defence is heavily keying on but you can't forget about him either - that has been the story of cooper through 2 years.

My only real area for improvement for him would be concentration drops over the middle, and In the red zone. He's really not a red zone threat at all and he has the tools to dominate. He's not small at nearly 6'2", has great leaping ability to high point the ball, and has shiftiness and polish running routes to create separation in small spaces. You'd think that combination would at least make him a threat in the red zone but he's rarely involved.

With a better play caller, more opportunities and another year with Carr I think cooper will be an elite receiver. He just needs to add in the only missing dimension in his game (red zone) and get more consistent which I think will come with experience
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daineraider


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We threw too many routes towards Roberts and forced too many balls to Crabtree. Crabtree was garbage down the stretch and we needed to get the ball more to Cooper. Hopefully with a new OC we can make those adjustments. I also hope Crabtree comes back next year and figures out how to catch the ball again.
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G


Joined: 02 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got to look at everybody's first 2 seasons

Cooper TOTAL 155 2,223 11TD's
OBJ is better but could easily miss games with fouls/temper/etc.
Julio has less yards more TD's
Brown has less than 1300 his first two seasons
Evans TOTAL 142 2,257 15TD's

Cooper is 22 and right on track with those guys IMO
I think his quiet demeanor keeps him underrated but he's a very good WR on his way to being ELITE.
I also think the OC change will help cooper this next season.
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Rich7sena


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daineraider wrote:
We threw too many routes towards Roberts and forced too many balls to Crabtree. Crabtree was garbage down the stretch and we needed to get the ball more to Cooper. Hopefully with a new OC we can make those adjustments. I also hope Crabtree comes back next year and figures out how to catch the ball again.

I think a lot of that has to do with trust. Carr clearly trusted Crabtree more than Cooper - especially in key situations. We call more plays for Cooper because he's more talented, but Crabtree has Carr's eye and trust.

Back to the topic of Cooper and his progression. I personally never thought or expected Cooper to become an elite receiver in the NFL. I did expect him to contribute right away and he's been crucial to the development of Derek Carr.

In terms of what's holding him back from the heights of Beckham, Brown, Jones. etc., I'd say it'd be his catch consistency and lack of length. Despite being 6' tall, Cooper has a short armed frame you usually don't see from top receivers. He's gotten better in terms of his hands (the Tampa Bay drop still sticks out in my mind), but doesn't possess the type of catch radius and consistency expected of an elite receiver. Still, we've seen lesser athletes become elite targets in the NFL (Marvin Harrison, Antoni Brown).

Either way, a top tier #1 receiver isn't essential at all for an elite or top level offense. Offensive line, quarterback play, and a core of receiving options are much more essential elements. Cooper will be a Raider for a very long time and should have consistent 1,000 yard production. Even if he never reaches the heights of guys like Megatron or Randy Moss, he'll always be a big part of the offense.
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Frankie2Gunz


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich7sena wrote:
daineraider wrote:
We threw too many routes towards Roberts and forced too many balls to Crabtree. Crabtree was garbage down the stretch and we needed to get the ball more to Cooper. Hopefully with a new OC we can make those adjustments. I also hope Crabtree comes back next year and figures out how to catch the ball again.

I think a lot of that has to do with trust. Carr clearly trusted Crabtree more than Cooper - especially in key situations. We call more plays for Cooper because he's more talented, but Crabtree has Carr's eye and trust.

Back to the topic of Cooper and his progression. I personally never thought or expected Cooper to become an elite receiver in the NFL. I did expect him to contribute right away and he's been crucial to the development of Derek Carr.

In terms of what's holding him back from the heights of Beckham, Brown, Jones. etc., I'd say it'd be his catch consistency and lack of length. Despite being 6' tall, Cooper has a short armed frame you usually don't see from top receivers. He's gotten better in terms of his hands (the Tampa Bay drop still sticks out in my mind), but doesn't possess the type of catch radius and consistency expected of an elite receiver. Still, we've seen lesser athletes become elite targets in the NFL (Marvin Harrison, Antoni Brown).

Either way, a top tier #1 receiver isn't essential at all for an elite or top level offense. Offensive line, quarterback play, and a core of receiving options are much more essential elements. Cooper will be a Raider for a very long time and should have consistent 1,000 yard production. Even if he never reaches the heights of guys like Megatron or Randy Moss, he'll always be a big part of the offense.


Well said Rich. 100 percent agree with your assessment of Cooper. Everyone knows my stance on Cooper and you have articulated my feelings about him perfectly. You get it Rich, you don't wear blinders and articulate your views very well.
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MrOaktown_56


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich7sena wrote:
daineraider wrote:
We threw too many routes towards Roberts and forced too many balls to Crabtree. Crabtree was garbage down the stretch and we needed to get the ball more to Cooper. Hopefully with a new OC we can make those adjustments. I also hope Crabtree comes back next year and figures out how to catch the ball again.

I think a lot of that has to do with trust. Carr clearly trusted Crabtree more than Cooper - especially in key situations. We call more plays for Cooper because he's more talented, but Crabtree has Carr's eye and trust.

Back to the topic of Cooper and his progression. I personally never thought or expected Cooper to become an elite receiver in the NFL. I did expect him to contribute right away and he's been crucial to the development of Derek Carr.

In terms of what's holding him back from the heights of Beckham, Brown, Jones. etc., I'd say it'd be his catch consistency and lack of length. Despite being 6' tall, Cooper has a short armed frame you usually don't see from top receivers. He's gotten better in terms of his hands (the Tampa Bay drop still sticks out in my mind), but doesn't possess the type of catch radius and consistency expected of an elite receiver. Still, we've seen lesser athletes become elite targets in the NFL (Marvin Harrison, Antoni Brown).

Either way, a top tier #1 receiver isn't essential at all for an elite or top level offense. Offensive line, quarterback play, and a core of receiving options are much more essential elements. Cooper will be a Raider for a very long time and should have consistent 1,000 yard production. Even if he never reaches the heights of guys like Megatron or Randy Moss, he'll always be a big part of the offense.


Catch consistency:

The guy had literally 4 drops this year. And has never gotten the redzone targets to show that he's a nonfactor there. Of course he'll never be an elite receiver in the redzone, but I think that he'll be a bigger factor elsewhere once the offense is tweaked a bit.

Lack of length:
He's shown the ability to get up and make spectacular catches too (Tampa Bay, Atlanta, Indy game, etc.). It's just not a big part of his game.

Carr also force fed Roberts the ball more than Cooper. Does that mean he trusts Roberts more too?

I just can't take any of these arguments about Crabtree being more "clutch" than Cooper seriously when Cooper beat double coverage with Vontae Davis and the Colts safety for the game winning catch.

He just needs the targets. And he's heading into his 3rd year, which is when most receivers make a jump. I'm pretty optimistic going forward. Me and BP have been on about this a million times. With Carr having more control, he'll be able to audible in and out of plays and routes designed to get Amari the ball in certain situations.

And I feel for Cooper because some of his biggest plays of the year were called back on stupid penalties.

He had that 60+ yard catch where he almost ran through the entire Bills defense and it was called back for Howard's idiotic pass play. Then he burned desmond trufant for that 40+ yard post route and it was called back because he was illegally forced out of bounds by trufant.

I have no problem with you saying that he'll never reach elite level. It's certainly possible that he wont', but it's far too early to tell. Lets wait till the end of next year before we get into that, which is when Brown and Jones really broke out.
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NightTrainLane


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's a mix of all of this point that have been well made.

Cooper is special. The holes in his game don't stay empty for more than a season. He has elite footwork, route tree progression and understanding and leap and catch ball skills. He has improved his focus and hands catching and foot drag and side line awareness steadily. There is no sign that he won't bring all those skills to elite. Just the kind of guy he is. Really think has Rice like intangibles.

What that can't do is make him taller or extend his catch radius. Those things added to the clutch gene Crabtree has shown keep the targets pretty even. I also don't think he will ever or should ever be the lone elite target in an offense and get 150 targets. He will operate best as a part of high powered offense. He is good enough to win in double teams but doesn't have the size of Megatron or Juilo or the explosion of Antonio that make them force feed guys.

The good thing is he and Carr are growing together. With them gaining more and more repertoire and confidence they gain the better chance they have to surpass the expectations.
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with some, disagree with others. Just wanted to point out Cooper I think is a career 0 for in the red zone as far as TDs. Something like 0 for 7 or 0 for 11 on end zone targets. I remember this stat during the season.

He has to straighten that out, big time.
But he's 22 and very young.

I think the OC, offense, or Carr - no idea who is responsible, are yet to completely assimilate the idea of attacking the defense with your best weapons. Someone is attached to the idea of taking what the D gives too much. It's smart, but passive. I for one hope we saw the future for the offense in the Indy game when we plowed them into the ground until Carr went out.
Not enough of taking what they want. You can't decoy your #1 WR too often, and that is the largest reason Cooper hasn't put up bigger numbers. We saw him get open against Denver. Someone programmed the gameplan to go away from him. Take what the D gives you, sure. But make sure it isn't also giving you what you want. Which in some cases it was.
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Jamethus92


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
I for one hope we saw the future for the offense in the Indy game when we plowed them into the ground until Carr went out.
Not enough of taking what they want. You can't decoy your #1 WR too often, and that is the largest reason Cooper hasn't put up bigger numbers. We saw him get open against Denver. Someone programmed the gameplan to go away from him. Take what the D gives you, sure. But make sure it isn't also giving you what you want. Which in some cases it was


Ungh. That's what made Carr's injury so much worse. Everything was finally starting to come together and we were completely rolling the Colts.
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jamethus92 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I for one hope we saw the future for the offense in the Indy game when we plowed them into the ground until Carr went out.
Not enough of taking what they want. You can't decoy your #1 WR too often, and that is the largest reason Cooper hasn't put up bigger numbers. We saw him get open against Denver. Someone programmed the gameplan to go away from him. Take what the D gives you, sure. But make sure it isn't also giving you what you want. Which in some cases it was


Ungh. That's what made Carr's injury so much worse. Everything was finally starting to come together and we were completely rolling the Colts.


I completely agree but take an optimist's view. That was our breakthrough, yes. But immediately following that, shot down by the injury. My hope is that in an offseason to think about it, this team might grasp that you have to grab your opportunities now, not coast on them. Opportunities to win playoff games and Super Bowls disappear in a flash. All year we watched them get leads then coast on them, dropping and missing passes, softening the defense, etc. Perhaps this will be the lesson that teaches them to bury teams robotically all game long. 60 minutes, not 15, not 30, not 45, 60. Having that mentality is the only real way to seal a SB victory, because in the playoffs and beyond if you give a team an inch they'll take a mile. Atlanta is the perfect lesson on that.
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Big Rob


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cooper has elite traits to his game. Route running, YAC, quickness. Hes only 22 years old, once he puts it all together and Carr realizes hes our top threat he will be mentioned as one of the best in the league. No doubts about it. Just look at the 1st KC game, when he had 10 catches for 100 plus in the first half, dude dominated, then we went away from him.

A lot of Carrs success is due to him spreading it out and not force feeding the ball to anyone, I'm not against it, but I do think 89 needs more targets. We should be getting 8-12 targets a game.
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Rich7sena


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOaktown_56 wrote:
Catch consistency:

The guy had literally 4 drops this year. And has never gotten the redzone targets to show that he's a nonfactor there. Of course he'll never be an elite receiver in the redzone, but I think that he'll be a bigger factor elsewhere once the offense is tweaked a bit.

At some point, we have to reconcile with the fact the coaching staff is making the call to not give Cooper the ball in the redzone and it's not some conspiracy to make Cooper look bad. Cooper struggled catching the quick slant in 2015 and the team stopped throwing him that route. For a guy who isn't known for leaping and snatching the ball over defenders' heads, he's going to need to work that out to get looks int he redzone.

Quote:
Carr also force fed Roberts the ball more than Cooper. Does that mean he trusts Roberts more too?

I don't think this is true at all. Roberts got open in the middle of the field quite often.
Quote:

I just can't take any of these arguments about Crabtree being more "clutch" than Cooper seriously when Cooper beat double coverage with Vontae Davis and the Colts safety for the game winning catch.

Who made this argument?
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