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Forge


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:59 am    Post subject: 2017 Draft Thread 2 Pro days & rumors! Reply with quote

Combine and Pro days coming up.
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Fureys49ers


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer your question from the last thread Forge, I don't think it is dire to address QB this year and have also said this too. I'm actually a fan of signing a guy like Cutler and drafting a mid round guy so that we can use other picks to address the talent level at other positions. We clearly do not have the team that is a QB away from being a contender.

Why I like Trubisky is because again of the tool set he is bringing with him and believe in Shanahan's scheme he used in Houston, Cleveland and Atlanta which was a modified, aggressive West Coast system. With what Trubisky does well and what would be asked from him is a great fit and a offers more of a chance of potential success than any other QB in the draft.

However as it stands right now we have ZERO QBs on the roster. We are a drowning team in terms of potential and upside and need help everywhere. "Everywhere" will not be fixed just through the draft and we will be needing to spend some our 100 million in FA to help add talent to our team. The single most important position to becoming a desireable team for FAs is by having a QB on your team. Proven or not having a QB who people assume is your QB of the future and being set there is a major draw for big time players. Also the notion of signing and starting Schaub or resigning Gabbert disgusts me in the message it sends the team, the NFL world and the Niners fans. I've also said this before, that is such a losers attitude and terrible way to go about running a franchise. And people afraid we'll play too well and hurt our chances at having another top 5 pick? This is the exact reason why no one wants to come to us, factor in the rocky past couple seasons of this organization and you'll start to see just how little people actually want to come here. Bigger money is going to have to be thrown at worse players than Dial and McDonald if that's the image we start displaying and playing to lose. Banking on next years draft having all the QB talent too is a mistake and how you end up like the Browns.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think our biggest draw, as a QB-less team, is Kyle Shanahan, right now. If he can sell a quick turn-around to free agents, on top of a lot of money, I'm sure we can get a few guys to sign here. I firmly believe we can be a competitive team (not a contender) by just adding 5 key players. QB, pass rusher, #1 WR, Center and ILB. Then we need to add better depth all over. That's what Kylo and Lynch have to sell, and every time they can check one of these five players on the list, the recruiting becomes easier.

Maybe Lynch hits out of the park in free agency. Maybe we can trade down and get Trubisky. Maybe Kylo evaluates all the QBs and think he might have something special in the second or third round. Personally, I'd love to have Trubisky. Go through ALL the threads on the niners board since september, and you'll all be surprised to find out I was the first to mention Trubisky as a potential first rounder. I think I even mentioned him as a player to watch as far as last year, when he wasn't even starting. I do like him. But he's not a top 5 pick, that's all. My dream is that the QB-needy teams at the top just have enough sense not to reach badly for QBs, and we all get our guys by trading up in the late first, or staying put at the top of the second. But, in all likelihood, some team is going to panic and start the domino effect.
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AMG1713


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm on the Corey Davis bandwagon at this point. Whether it is at #2 or we trade down and take him. I'm just not in love with anyone else who will be available at that point. Reuban Foster maybe? I like Solomon Thomas more as a 3 or 5 tech than an edge rusher. The QBs don't really do it for me. Davis just seems like the best fit as a play maker we badly need and as a fit for Shanahan's offense.
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Fureys49ers


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
I think our biggest draw, as a QB-less team, is Kyle Shanahan, right now. If he can sell a quick turn-around to free agents, on top of a lot of money, I'm sure we can get a few guys to sign here. I firmly believe we can be a competitive team (not a contender) by just adding 5 key players. QB, pass rusher, #1 WR, Center and ILB. Then we need to add better depth all over. That's what Kylo and Lynch have to sell, and every time they can check one of these five players on the list, the recruiting becomes easier.

Maybe Lynch hits out of the park in free agency. Maybe we can trade down and get Trubisky. Maybe Kylo evaluates all the QBs and think he might have something special in the second or third round. Personally, I'd love to have Trubisky. Go through ALL the threads on the niners board since september, and you'll all be surprised to find out I was the first to mention Trubisky as a potential first rounder. I think I even mentioned him as a player to watch as far as last year, when he wasn't even starting. I do like him. But he's not a top 5 pick, that's all. My dream is that the QB-needy teams at the top just have enough sense not to reach badly for QBs, and we all get our guys by trading up in the late first, or staying put at the top of the second. But, in all likelihood, some team is going to panic and start the domino effect.


See now this I can get on board with.
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Forge


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fureys49ers wrote:
To answer your question from the last thread Forge, I don't think it is dire to address QB this year and have also said this too. I'm actually a fan of signing a guy like Cutler and drafting a mid round guy so that we can use other picks to address the talent level at other positions. We clearly do not have the team that is a QB away from being a contender.


Then we are good here. There are several guys we can easily sign for this year coming up, including Cutler. I am fine with Glennon (who is still young enough to fit a rebuild if he actually pans out). Tyrod. Hoyer is good with me.

Quote:
Why I like Trubisky is because again of the tool set he is bringing with him and believe in Shanahan's scheme he used in Houston, Cleveland and Atlanta which was a modified, aggressive West Coast system. With what Trubisky does well and what would be asked from him is a great fit and a offers more of a chance of potential success than any other QB in the draft.


That's fine, I get the appeal of him. But at the same time you've already said it's not a requirement for us to draft a quarterback as this is a multi year rebuild, and you've already stated that he's not a top 5 prospect. I see absolutely no reason you should take him at 2 if this is the case. The draft is pretty much always been littered with guys like this and will happen every year. Guys of questionable first round talent who are pushed into the first because they are quarterbacks. There's nothing special about Trubisky in this regard. The quarterback class next year doesn't even need to be better than this years, it just has to have a comparable player to someone like Trubisky (a second/third round guy pushed into the first because he's a quarterback). I'll go on record now that there will be a similar quarterback prospect who causes this debate next year, and there will probably be one the year after and the year after. If I thought Trubisky were something special, I would advocate that we draft him. I don't think that there's anything super special here.

Seriously, there are two drafts where I can think of that where there wasn't, or shouldn't have been a first round quarterback taken - 2013 and 1996. And even 2013 still got a first rounder in there.

Quote:
However as it stands right now we have ZERO QBs on the roster. We are a drowning team in terms of potential and upside and need help everywhere. "Everywhere" will not be fixed just through the draft and we will be needing to spend some our 100 million in FA to help add talent to our team. The single most important position to becoming a desireable team for FAs is by having a QB on your team. Proven or not having a QB who people assume is your QB of the future and being set there is a major draw for big time players.


That may be the case for the bolded, if you're looking at just the players the team fields, but how many free agents actually do that? I'd still put money on it that whether or not we have a quarterback still falls way below how much you are paying someone, possible playing time and things like that. For me, whether or not we have a quarterback probably means little more than a tie breaker.
Quote:

Also the notion of signing and starting Schaub or resigning Gabbert disgusts me in the message it sends the team, the NFL world and the Niners fans
.

I doubt that we re-sign Gabbert, and while i expect Schaub on the team, I don't expect him to be the starter. But even so, what message does it send? That we are rebuilding and we didn't care for any of the quarterbacks available? Why is this awful? Unless you're talking about specifically having such a low bar at quarterback and not just getting a stopgap in general. I would be disappointed if Schaub as the starter, as I think there are far superior stopgap quarterbacks available, but in the end it wouldn't much matter to me.

Quote:
I've also said this before, that is such a losers attitude and terrible way to go about running a franchise. And people afraid we'll play too well and hurt our chances at having another top 5 pick?


No, people don't want to reach for a quarterback who isn't considered a top prospect at the #2 spot. I haven't heard anyone really complain about the prospect of signing Cutler/Hoyer/Tyrod. The only times I've heard complaints are at the possibility of giving up assets for the likes of Cousins or Jimmy G through a trade.

Quote:
This is the exact reason why no one wants to come to us, factor in the rocky past couple seasons of this organization and you'll start to see just how little people actually want to come here. Bigger money is going to have to be thrown at worse players than Dial and McDonald if that's the image we start displaying and playing to lose. Banking on next years draft having all the QB talent too is a mistake and how you end up like the Browns.


The bolded couldn't be more untrue. Last year it was the strategy that they used, and it's far too early to see if that is a success or failure. But in prior years, they've been all about drafting quarterbacks, and in several instances, with big time reaches. Tim Couch, Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, Brandon Weeden, Johnny Manziel, Luke McCown...they've been pretty aggressive in trying to draft quarterbacks. All of those guys were picked in the top 4 rounds.
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Chrissooner49er


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fureys49ers wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
I think our biggest draw, as a QB-less team, is Kyle Shanahan, right now. If he can sell a quick turn-around to free agents, on top of a lot of money, I'm sure we can get a few guys to sign here. I firmly believe we can be a competitive team (not a contender) by just adding 5 key players. QB, pass rusher, #1 WR, Center and ILB. Then we need to add better depth all over. That's what Kylo and Lynch have to sell, and every time they can check one of these five players on the list, the recruiting becomes easier.

Maybe Lynch hits out of the park in free agency. Maybe we can trade down and get Trubisky. Maybe Kylo evaluates all the QBs and think he might have something special in the second or third round. Personally, I'd love to have Trubisky. Go through ALL the threads on the niners board since september, and you'll all be surprised to find out I was the first to mention Trubisky as a potential first rounder. I think I even mentioned him as a player to watch as far as last year, when he wasn't even starting. I do like him. But he's not a top 5 pick, that's all. My dream is that the QB-needy teams at the top just have enough sense not to reach badly for QBs, and we all get our guys by trading up in the late first, or staying put at the top of the second. But, in all likelihood, some team is going to panic and start the domino effect.


See now this I can get on board with.


Definitely agree.
I have no trouble with Trubisky...except WHERE he could be picked. I do like the kid and think his potential is intriguing. Just gunshy about picking him at #2! Shocked
I would not mind breaking the bank for Cousins, myself. We could offer him $30 mil this year and a little less for any following years. We have almost $100 mil in cap space! SPEND IT.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Continued from the other thread)

Forge: Basically, it comes down to this - positional value is important, but how important is debatable. That's 100% based on the individual. Over reaching for players due to inflated value caused by need, is bad. But small reaches are obviously sometimes necessary. You can't go strictly BPA, but there's a delicate balancing act that you need to perform.

Me: Agree with this entire statement. Now we can just agree to differ on "how important" and on the strengths and weaknesses of individual players.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
(Continued from the other thread)

Forge: Basically, it comes down to this - positional value is important, but how important is debatable. That's 100% based on the individual. Over reaching for players due to inflated value caused by need, is bad. But small reaches are obviously sometimes necessary. You can't go strictly BPA, but there's a delicate balancing act that you need to perform.

Me: Agree with this entire statement. Now we can just agree to differ on "how important" and on the strengths and weaknesses of individual players.



I don't think anyone is disagreeing on the importance. We're very much just arguing on the individual players (mainly Trubisky), and we have been all along. The principle itself, everybody agrees. QBs are more important than anything else. I'd do stupid things if I thought there was a legit franchise QB in this draft.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lone voice here thinking we do need to "address" the QB position in the draft this year. It seems like a lot of people keep forgetting this is not a normal year. And I don't mean because of our FO and coaching changes. We are almost certainly losing all three of our QBs in the offseason. Have any of you ever seen a year where a team is entering the FA/draft season without a QB on their roster? This is by far the biggest problem facing our new management. We need at least two on the team and likely three. People here are having a hard time conceiving of it being worth signing even one FA, yet we need two or three qbs on the roster. This is not a need like our need for a pass rusher or an ILB. This is a NEED in caps. We have no QBs on the team. It is possible we sign only two vets and go with that. But it seems far, far more likely that we add a rookie somewhere in the draft.
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Forge


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Lone voice here thinking we do need to "address" the QB position in the draft this year. It seems like a lot of people keep forgetting this is not a normal year. And I don't mean because of our FO and coaching changes. We are almost certainly losing all three of our QBs in the offseason. Have any of you ever seen a year where a team is entering the FA/draft season without a QB on their roster? This is by far the biggest problem facing our new management. We need at least two on the team and likely three. People here are having a hard time conceiving of it being worth signing even one FA, yet we need two or three qbs on the roster. This is not a need like our need for a pass rusher or an ILB. This is a NEED in caps. We have no QBs on the team. It is possible we sign only two vets and go with that. But it seems far, far more likely that we add a rookie somewhere in the draft.


But why does it need to be solved in the draft and why at #2? Why can't you sign Schaub and maybe a Cutler type?
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757-NINER


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
Lone voice here thinking we do need to "address" the QB position in the draft this year. It seems like a lot of people keep forgetting this is not a normal year. And I don't mean because of our FO and coaching changes. We are almost certainly losing all three of our QBs in the offseason. Have any of you ever seen a year where a team is entering the FA/draft season without a QB on their roster? This is by far the biggest problem facing our new management. We need at least two on the team and likely three. People here are having a hard time conceiving of it being worth signing even one FA, yet we need two or three qbs on the roster. This is not a need like our need for a pass rusher or an ILB. This is a NEED in caps. We have no QBs on the team. It is possible we sign only two vets and go with that. But it seems far, far more likely that we add a rookie somewhere in the draft.


But why does it need to be solved in the draft and why at #2? Why can't you sign Schaub and maybe a Cutler type?


Agreed. Its not like we're losing talent at the position, just bodies. Bodies that can just as easily be replaced. Let Shanny come in, choose a couple of run-of-mill vet QBs of his liking. Maybe trade for a guy like Hundley or another young back-up/developmental type. And let the draft board determine whether or not you take a QB, not need.

Realistically, nobody is expecting much of anything from this roster for the next two years. There's no rush to draft a franchise QB right now. Not with the roster the way it is. We need talent at any and every position. We can't afford to pass on any playmakers to try to hit on a QB. That's not the approach we should take here. Build up the roster first. Maybe you luck into a QB along the way. Because hitting on a QB is more luck than anything else.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my follow up to the last post. I think a lot of people here are OK with Trubisky in the middle to latter part of the first. so suppose our management like him enough to use a mid to late first on him. That kind of pick for a QB usually is used on a guy you think/hope/expect will become "the guy". Suppose they have him rated a lot higher than Watson or Kizer. So they want him a whole lot more than the other two. How do they get him?

I mean suppose there's a trade back available. How far can they afford to trade back and still guarantee getting him? The answer is no one knows. What if they trade back to like 12 or so thinking that puts them ahead of the middle part of the draft where his true value lies, but some other team takes him at 8 or 10? Then what? Settle for the guy they think is not nearly as good? I've made this point before but perhaps I'm the only one that thinks this way. But if I'm rebuilding a franchise I want to start with the best QB I can get, not settle for 2nd or 3rd best. At least not if I have them rated with a pretty big difference between them. Is that a way to build a franchise for the future?

"Penny wise and pound foolish" is just as applicable to building a franchise as to anything else. This what I mean when I talk about "bargain hunting" or "bottom feeding". If there is one QB you think can be "the guy" and you think 15 is the right spot for him, it's probably fine to take him at 2. If you're right about him any pick will be worth spending on him. If you're wrong then you're just as wrong at 15 as at 2 and you end up losing whatever extra picks you could have gotten by trading back. But there is one other option and that is that you are right about him becoming great but wrong when you traded back expecting him to be there but someone takes him ahead of you. People are always worried about getting the evaluation wrong. I think it's just as important to worry about getting the evaluation right but letting him slip away from you because you were looking to get him at a bargain price, or unwilling to pay a premium price for him.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully Cleveland falls in love with Trubisky or Watson and this will all be a moot point. If Cleveland wants one of the top QBs they are going to have to use the No.1 pick on him IMO. The amount of QB needy teams before their No.12 pick is just way too high. While it may seem unlikely now, I could see them falling in love with one of the QBs between now and the draft and we would have Myles Garrett just sitting there for us. I love Myles Garrett and would be absolutely pumped if Cleveland passed on him, but I think our coaching staff would also listen to offers for that pick in that situation. Garrett sitting there at 2 is the only way we'd get astronomical value for that pick. At the end of the day I would just take him, but something to think about anyway.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Here's my follow up to the last post. I think a lot of people here are OK with Trubisky in the middle to latter part of the first. so suppose our management like him enough to use a mid to late first on him. That kind of pick for a QB usually is used on a guy you think/hope/expect will become "the guy". Suppose they have him rated a lot higher than Watson or Kizer. So they want him a whole lot more than the other two. How do they get him?


Well, the bolded rules me out of this since I'm not one of the "lot" lol. I wouldn't be okay with him in the middle portion of the first. He's a third round quarterback to me.

If management likes him, and truly feels that he's a top 5 talent in this draft, they should take him at 2. I have a hard time believing that they would view him as such given that there is no consensus even close to having him rated this way, but it is what it is, and people view prospects differently, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that they do.

Quote:
I mean suppose there's a trade back available. How far can they afford to trade back and still guarantee getting him? The answer is no one knows. What if they trade back to like 12 or so thinking that puts them ahead of the middle part of the draft where his true value lies, but some other team takes him at 8 or 10? Then what? Settle for the guy they think is not nearly as good? I've made this point before but perhaps I'm the only one that thinks this way. But if I'm rebuilding a franchise I want to start with the best QB I can get, not settle for 2nd or 3rd best. At least not if I have them rated with a pretty big difference between them. Is that a way to build a franchise for the future?


This doesn't answer the question on why we are forcing the quarterback i the draft to begin with. Why aren't we just taking one of the top 5 players in this draft? Why are we so intent on getting the quarterback at this very moment that now we are looking at moving down?

But again, I'll go back to he previous paragraph - if the management truly has a top 5 type grade on him that is un-influenced by him being a quarterback, then take him. Nothing I say can or will influence that decision. I am only speaking for how I feel.
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