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Khalil Mack wins Defensive Player of the Year
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OakleyRaider24


Joined: 11 Jan 2017
Posts: 37
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congrats to Khalil. Well deserved and many more to come! We know how great he is at setting the edge but he still lacks a variety of pass rushing moves. A lot of just speed and power rushes. Crazy to think it's only year 3 and how much more room there is to grow. As for his extensions I'd wait til next season so we don't eat all our cap space this year with him and DC getting new deals. Next year as it stands now we'll have like 30 million more in space than this year.
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 17060
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NightTrainLane wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
We're in position to have Mack for the next 2 years for 16M in cash (not the cap hit). Von Miller got 19M/Year. Even if there's some inflation, we won't save anything by signing Mack now.


Atleast check your facts. We will save something...Von's first yr cap hit is 11.5mil. Then the large cap hits start in 2017. Would be the same for us if we followed that blueprint which I think we would as that is the comp contract at this time.


Please explain to me how you come to the conclusion we'd save something from this?
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NightTrainLane wrote:

Aaron Donald realistically and Kwann Short on an overpay.


I'll give you Donald. Let's assume he's going to be the highest paid defender.
Von Miller became the highest paid defender this season and got 125k over 6 years more than Suh (the previously highest paid defender), one year after Suh's contract. That's a 20K/Year raise. Should we believe the next guys to top that contract are going to get a 2M/Year raise? I guess it could happen but there's nothing that could lead anyone to predict such a raise.
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drfrey13


Joined: 14 Oct 2010
Posts: 1451
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:

Aaron Donald realistically and Kwann Short on an overpay.


I'll give you Donald. Let's assume he's going to be the highest paid defender.
Von Miller became the highest paid defender this season and got 125k over 6 years more than Suh (the previously highest paid defender), one year after Suh's contract. That's a 20K/Year raise. Should we believe the next guys to top that contract are going to get a 2M/Year raise? I guess it could happen but there's nothing that could lead anyone to predict such a raise.


There are a few reasons why his contract could jump up.

1) Playoff run: Players get paid a premium as a key player on winning teams.

2) Justin Houston 2015 6yr $101 million vs Von Miller 2016 6yr $114 million. Clowney, Donald, and Ansah could all get huge deals before we resign Mack.

3) A top player does not need to beat Miller's contract. Lower tiered players could get over paid causing Mack's value to increase. Kwann Short, Poe, and Jason Pierre-Paul could all get deals that would increase the price for top tiered players.
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
Posts: 3136
Location: On the wall defending Reggie from all blasphemous heretics!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:

Aaron Donald realistically and Kwann Short on an overpay.


I'll give you Donald. Let's assume he's going to be the highest paid defender.
Von Miller became the highest paid defender this season and got 125k over 6 years more than Suh (the previously highest paid defender), one year after Suh's contract. That's a 20K/Year raise. Should we believe the next guys to top that contract are going to get a 2M/Year raise? I guess it could happen but there's nothing that could lead anyone to predict such a raise.


I never said a thing about the contract jumping. Was just answering your question about who could get the bigger deal in the coming yrs.
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
Posts: 3136
Location: On the wall defending Reggie from all blasphemous heretics!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
We're in position to have Mack for the next 2 years for 16M in cash (not the cap hit). Von Miller got 19M/Year. Even if there's some inflation, we won't save anything by signing Mack now.


Atleast check your facts. We will save something...Von's first yr cap hit is 11.5mil. Then the large cap hits start in 2017. Would be the same for us if we followed that blueprint which I think we would as that is the comp contract at this time.


Please explain to me how you come to the conclusion we'd save something from this?



Age-YR-$$
25-'17-6m 4th yr of rookie deal
26-'18-12m 5th yr option
27-'19-16m Franchise Tag

signs a 6yr $126 million contract

Age-YR-$$
28-'20-15m 1st yr
29-'21-22m 2nd yr
30-'22-23m 3rd yr
31-'23-23m 4th yr
32-'24-22m 5th yr
33-'25-21m 6th yr
=160m

OR

Age-YR-$$
25-'17-7m 4th and final yr of rookie deal

signs a 6 yr $117 mil extension

Age-YR-$$
26-'17-12m 1st yr
27-'18-21m 2nd yr
28-'19-22m 3rd yr
29-'20-22m 4th yr
30-'21-21m 5th yr
31-'22-19m 6th yr
=124m
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 17060
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drfrey13 wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:

Aaron Donald realistically and Kwann Short on an overpay.


I'll give you Donald. Let's assume he's going to be the highest paid defender.
Von Miller became the highest paid defender this season and got 125k over 6 years more than Suh (the previously highest paid defender), one year after Suh's contract. That's a 20K/Year raise. Should we believe the next guys to top that contract are going to get a 2M/Year raise? I guess it could happen but there's nothing that could lead anyone to predict such a raise.


There are a few reasons why his contract could jump up.

1) Playoff run: Players get paid a premium as a key player on winning teams.

2) Justin Houston 2015 6yr $101 million vs Von Miller 2016 6yr $114 million. Clowney, Donald, and Ansah could all get huge deals before we resign Mack.

3) A top player does not need to beat Miller's contract. Lower tiered players could get over paid causing Mack's value to increase. Kwann Short, Poe, and Jason Pierre-Paul could all get deals that would increase the price for top tiered players.


1. The contract used as reference here is Von Miller's. He was coming off a SB win. If there's such thing as a bonus for team results, he got it.

2.Miller got the highest contract for a defender. The contract his agent wanted to top was Suh's. Someone will get more soon but it won't go much higher than that.

3.You're going to be looking at odds when trying to preview how the market could evolve. The odds of a second tier player getting the top defender contract is low.
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NightTrainLane wrote:


Age-YR-$$
25-'17-6m 4th yr of rookie deal
26-'18-12m 5th yr option
27-'19-16m Franchise Tag

signs a 6yr $126 million contract

Age-YR-$$
28-'20-15m 1st yr
29-'21-22m 2nd yr
30-'22-23m 3rd yr
31-'23-23m 4th yr
32-'24-22m 5th yr
33-'25-21m 6th yr
=160m

OR

Age-YR-$$
25-'17-7m 4th and final yr of rookie deal

signs a 6 yr $117 mil extension

Age-YR-$$
26-'17-12m 1st yr
27-'18-21m 2nd yr
28-'19-22m 3rd yr
29-'20-22m 4th yr
30-'21-21m 5th yr
31-'22-19m 6th yr
=124m


160/9=17.7

or 124/7=17.7

And that's going with your assumption that he would get a significant yearly raise if we wait 2 years to sign him.
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
Posts: 3136
Location: On the wall defending Reggie from all blasphemous heretics!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:


Age-YR-$$
25-'17-6m 4th yr of rookie deal
26-'18-12m 5th yr option
27-'19-16m Franchise Tag

signs a 6yr $126 million contract

Age-YR-$$
28-'20-15m 1st yr
29-'21-22m 2nd yr
30-'22-23m 3rd yr
31-'23-23m 4th yr
32-'24-22m 5th yr
33-'25-21m 6th yr
=160m

OR

Age-YR-$$
25-'17-7m 4th and final yr of rookie deal

signs a 6 yr $117 mil extension

Age-YR-$$
26-'17-12m 1st yr
27-'18-21m 2nd yr
28-'19-22m 3rd yr
29-'20-22m 4th yr
30-'21-21m 5th yr
31-'22-19m 6th yr
=124m


160/9=17.7

or 124/7=17.7

And that's going with your assumption that he would get a significant yearly raise if we wait 2 years to sign him.


That's average not not total. You asked how we save. I showed you.

Of course he would sign for more two years later. Macks production trends up in every metric. The salary cap goes up every year. Teams sign star defensive players to bigger deals and agents one up the last guys deal every year. All those things point to a guy like him getting more money which has been explained to you a few times now.
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
Posts: 3136
Location: On the wall defending Reggie from all blasphemous heretics!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
drfrey13 wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:

Aaron Donald realistically and Kwann Short on an overpay.


I'll give you Donald. Let's assume he's going to be the highest paid defender.
Von Miller became the highest paid defender this season and got 125k over 6 years more than Suh (the previously highest paid defender), one year after Suh's contract. That's a 20K/Year raise. Should we believe the next guys to top that contract are going to get a 2M/Year raise? I guess it could happen but there's nothing that could lead anyone to predict such a raise.


There are a few reasons why his contract could jump up.

1) Playoff run: Players get paid a premium as a key player on winning teams.

2) Justin Houston 2015 6yr $101 million vs Von Miller 2016 6yr $114 million. Clowney, Donald, and Ansah could all get huge deals before we resign Mack.

3) A top player does not need to beat Miller's contract. Lower tiered players could get over paid causing Mack's value to increase. Kwann Short, Poe, and Jason Pierre-Paul could all get deals that would increase the price for top tiered players.


1. The contract used as reference here is Von Miller's. He was coming off a SB win. If there's such thing as a bonus for team results, he got it.

2.Miller got the highest contract for a defender. The contract his agent wanted to top was Suh's. Someone will get more soon but it won't go much higher than that.

3.You're going to be looking at odds when trying to preview how the market could evolve. The odds of a second tier player getting the top defender contract is low.


Looking at odds and predicting markets are all valid ways to eval market trends but the FA is different in that teams are bidding vs each other and therefore can turn those treads on there heads. The odds couldn't predict the Olivier Vernon bidding war last year. Just one example. Josh Norman's offer getting pulled and signing richest CB deal is another.
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 17060
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NightTrainLane wrote:

That's average not not total. You asked how we save. I showed you.


Of course that's average, how do you suggest we compare money spent over different length?

You showed me that we're going to spend less if we have Mack under contract for 7 years rather than 9. That's really impressive stuff. Laughing
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
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Location: On the wall defending Reggie from all blasphemous heretics!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:

That's average not total. You asked how we save. I showed you.


Of course that's average, how do you suggest we compare money spent over different length?

You showed me that we're going to spend less if we have Mack under contract for 7 years rather than 9. That's really impressive stuff. Laughing


Yes, makes sense for the team with their intentions to lock him up and show him we value him plus it's good for Mack in the sum he gets sooner and being able to get another contract sooner.

That was the overall point I was getting across before you started breaking it up into separate points of contention. I was addressing the overall goals.
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Nodisrespect


Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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Location: in the present
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You dont worry about saving money when it comes to guys like Mack and Carr. You pay them, keep them happy and work around there greatness. How many games have those guys won for us?
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SilverNBlackFan


Joined: 15 Oct 2007
Posts: 7943
Location: R.I.P Al Davis 1929-2011
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nodisrespect wrote:
How many games have those guys won for us?


22
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G


Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 3874
Location: Hollywierd
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NightTrainLane wrote:
G wrote:
Option #4 I fully explain the situation to both Carr and Mack. They will be Raiders and were willing to Franchise and 5th year option. However we'd like to sign both now to let everyone feel secure and happy. So long-term deals that average the years and savings into 5th year and franchising options. I tell them these offers are here all season to sign if you want...
OR
Carr franchises next season and Mack is 5th year opt'd and then we will do deals. I think both might sign team friendly that means less per season now with security and knowing they will be taken care of long-term.
I'd not sign any top notch FA's and wait for cuts and discounted FA's that want to be a part of us on the rise.
I'd like to offer Gabe Jackson a decent deal as it gives us more flexibility with Osemele, who I'd move to RT depending on FA's or draft.


So option #4 is let the player decide out of option #1-3.


I look at it as a hybrid and being upfront and honest with the player.
We all want to feel Important. Giving both 5 yr 100mil extensions that kick in after the 5th year expires gives them security NOW instead of getting 5 year 125 mil two years from now. Maybe it would be more or maybe players gets bad injury in contract year like Brees and doesn't feel wanted.
Mack and Carr seem like they WANT to be Raiders and lead us into a bright winning future. Were letting them have the choice to sign now a bit cheaper or take the chance for more later. I think they'd both be happy especially knowing they are both needed/wanted for our future and will be taken care of $$$
Personally I think the NFL has peaked and when TV contracts come up they won't be rising like before, unless a new network tries to jump into the fray.
If both signed we'd have cap to get decent FA's as the bonus would spread over the extra year for Carr and two for Mack.
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