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Is our Defense that bad?
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NJniners


Joined: 27 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Is our Defense that bad? Reply with quote

Honest question. I only was able to watch a handful of Niners games this past season, so im asking. Was our defense that bad? I mean, considering injuries like Bow, if he was healthy, is it? We have to also understand that our offense couldnt sustain drives. And its not like on defense we dont have talent. Lets look at it:

Reid, Ward, Robinson, Brock and Tartt in our secondary for example. Im more than happy talent-wise there. Not a fan at all of Brock, always said we shouldve extended Culliver instead a few years ago, but otherwise im very happy. Depth is not great tho.

Lynch, Armstrong, Bowman, Brooks. Also very happy. Brooks when he wants to be is an animal. Lynch is a stud. Armstrong showed bright signs to me when i watched and Bowman needs no explanation. Unfortunately Armstrong and Bowman got injured but i think when healthy this is a good group. Of course we could find upgrades to Armstrong and an aging Brooks but no one can tell me this group is not at the very least solid when healthy. Now, take Armstrong, Bowman, and Lynch out and put Bellore, Wilhoite, and Harold in there and obviously thats a different story.

D-Line. Buckner, Armstrong, and Dial/Williams/Dorsey. Now the nose tackle position could be better, would be even if Williams could stay healthy. But Dial is also no flop. And Buckner and Armstead are studs that will only get better. Again though, our depth is crap here.

So what made us so bad? Our offense alone?
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Forge


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's pretty bad. Buckner is a stud. Armstead hasn't shown enough at this point. Our nose tackle play was atrocious. Dial is just a guy...he's not special or anything. Could be replaced with a marginal free agent.

Inside linebackers? complete mess. Ray Ray actually looked adequate for a minute, but I'm not relying on that small of a sample size to say he's even average when he has really struggle before. Bowman was great, but now a second serious injury in 4 years, and it typically take a player a second year to fully recover from an achilles injury to be back where he was. Sure, he'll play next year, but I doubt he'll be as good as he was in the past.

Edge rushers? Lynch is hit and miss. There's talent, but I'd say some conditioning issues, and he's not good enough to be a number one pass rusher on a team. Brooks still has a little left in the tank though he won't be here long, so he needs a replacement and he wasn't ever a great pass rusher anyway.

Our corners I'm bullish on - I think that there's a lot to like there with Ward and Robinson. Brock as a 3 is just fine to me, and if Redmond is worth anything, that's a damn fine top 4.

Safety is meh. Reid is basically an average safety. Nothing special. Bethea is old and done. Tartt is a bust. We could use another safety.

Also, Williams is a free agent. We waived him during the year, I believe.

And our offense maybe contributed to it, but the defense was just awful. There's no excuse for how bad they played against the run.
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Fureys49ers


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
It's pretty bad. Buckner is a stud. Armstead hasn't shown enough at this point. Our nose tackle play was atrocious. Dial is just a guy...he's not special or anything. Could be replaced with a marginal free agent.

Inside linebackers? complete mess. Ray Ray actually looked adequate for a minute, but I'm not relying on that small of a sample size to say he's even average when he has really struggle before. Bowman was great, but now a second serious injury in 4 years, and it typically take a player a second year to fully recover from an achilles injury to be back where he was. Sure, he'll play next year, but I doubt he'll be as good as he was in the past.

Edge rushers? Lynch is hit and miss. There's talent, but I'd say some conditioning issues, and he's not good enough to be a number one pass rusher on a team. Brooks still has a little left in the tank though he won't be here long, so he needs a replacement and he wasn't ever a great pass rusher anyway.

Our corners I'm bullish on - I think that there's a lot to like there with Ward and Robinson. Brock as a 3 is just fine to me, and if Redmond is worth anything, that's a damn fine top 4.

Safety is meh. Reid is basically an average safety. Nothing special. Bethea is old and done. Tartt is a bust. We could use another safety.

Also, Williams is a free agent. We waived him during the year, I believe.

And our offense maybe contributed to it, but the defense was just awful. There's no excuse for how bad they played against the run.


Agree 110%. I'll add to it though with the fact that we have absolutely zero depth worth a damn at every position. This up coming draft I would love to see a player added at every position.
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Fureys49ers


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
It's pretty bad. Buckner is a stud. Armstead hasn't shown enough at this point. Our nose tackle play was atrocious. Dial is just a guy...he's not special or anything. Could be replaced with a marginal free agent.

Inside linebackers? complete mess. Ray Ray actually looked adequate for a minute, but I'm not relying on that small of a sample size to say he's even average when he has really struggle before. Bowman was great, but now a second serious injury in 4 years, and it typically take a player a second year to fully recover from an achilles injury to be back where he was. Sure, he'll play next year, but I doubt he'll be as good as he was in the past.

Edge rushers? Lynch is hit and miss. There's talent, but I'd say some conditioning issues, and he's not good enough to be a number one pass rusher on a team. Brooks still has a little left in the tank though he won't be here long, so he needs a replacement and he wasn't ever a great pass rusher anyway.

Our corners I'm bullish on - I think that there's a lot to like there with Ward and Robinson. Brock as a 3 is just fine to me, and if Redmond is worth anything, that's a damn fine top 4.

Safety is meh. Reid is basically an average safety. Nothing special. Bethea is old and done. Tartt is a bust. We could use another safety.

Also, Williams is a free agent. We waived him during the year, I believe.

And our offense maybe contributed to it, but the defense was just awful. There's no excuse for how bad they played against the run.


Agree 110%. I'll add to it though with the fact that we have absolutely zero depth worth a damn at every position. This up coming draft I would love to see a player added at every position.
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J-ALL-DAY


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tartt is a bust? I'd hold off on that. Not a game changer yet, but he looks solid thus far. Misses a bit more tackles you would like, but does some good things in coverage.

But either him or Reid need to be better than solid. How much of that is the terrible run defense and ILB play? Not sure, but obviously doesn't allow the safeties to play as aggressive on the back end.
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y2lamanaki


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm only slightly more optimistic than Forge - I don't think Tartt is nearly as bad (he's bad for a 2nd rounder - but he was a 4th rounder that got overdrafted and at this point he should only be seeing a rotational role before reaching his potential by year 4), and I'm a little bit more optimistic about Armstead (who I absolutely loathed coming out to set the context of my comment).

Otherwise, I think Ray Ray looked great, but as Forge pointed out - only for a minute and not enough of a sample size (one game, essentially) to say that it was sustainable. Every other player - we're in agreement.
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Forge


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J-ALL-DAY wrote:
Tartt is a bust? I'd hold off on that. Not a game changer yet, but he looks solid thus far. Misses a bit more tackles you would like, but does some good things in coverage.

But either him or Reid need to be better than solid. How much of that is the terrible run defense and ILB play? Not sure, but obviously doesn't allow the safeties to play as aggressive on the back end.


For a second round pick, I consider him a bit of a bust, just because I don't view him as a starting safety. If we utilitzed him in that hybrid nickel linebacker role, and he was specialized in that way, I'd be more forgiving - specialized players can be worth a 2. But it doesn't appear that we are doing that. As a starting safety, however, I find him underwhelming.

I like his coverage in the box coming downhill. Backpedaling and tracking downfield? You can't really be super happy with that right now, are you?
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Forge


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
J-ALL-DAY wrote:
Tartt is a bust? I'd hold off on that. Not a game changer yet, but he looks solid thus far. Misses a bit more tackles you would like, but does some good things in coverage.

But either him or Reid need to be better than solid. How much of that is the terrible run defense and ILB play? Not sure, but obviously doesn't allow the safeties to play as aggressive on the back end.


For a second round pick, I consider him a bit of a bust, just because I don't view him as a starting safety. If we utilitzed him in that hybrid nickel linebacker role, and he was specialized in that way, I'd be more forgiving - specialized players can be worth a 2. But it doesn't appear that we are doing that. As a starting safety, however, I find him underwhelming.

I like his coverage in the box coming downhill. Backpedaling and tracking downfield? You can't really be super happy with that right now, are you?


To biggy back on this - you may be right. It may be that the pairing is not great more so than the individual player. I can deal with his weaknesses (well, not the missed tackles coming downhill - you definitely need to do that if your role is coming downhill) if we had a safety opposite him that would compensate, but those weaknesses of Tartt's aren't exactly Reid's strengths.
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48 1/2ers


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric Reid is the most overrated player on this team, but like Fureys said we have so little depth.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

48 1/2ers wrote:
Eric Reid is the most overrated player on this team, but like Fureys said we have so little depth.


Eric Reid is the most underrated player on this team. By the way some comment about him in gameday threads, you'd think we were playing Mark Roman back there again.

He's average. Not terrible like many say. Not great (like nobody says). Hence - he's underrated.
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J-ALL-DAY


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
For a second round pick, I consider him a bit of a bust, just because I don't view him as a starting safety. If we utilitzed him in that hybrid nickel linebacker role, and he was specialized in that way, I'd be more forgiving - specialized players can be worth a 2. But it doesn't appear that we are doing that. As a starting safety, however, I find him underwhelming.

I like his coverage in the box coming downhill. Backpedaling and tracking downfield? You can't really be super happy with that right now, are you?


Do you have any examples of him backpedaling and tracking downfield and doing a bad job or something? He isn't asked to do too much of it, but I like how physical he gets with opposing TEs at the LOS. That was underutilized by the coaching staff last season.

Again though, I'm really not sure how to judge the back end with such a putrid run defense and lack of pass rush.

To me, Tartt's biggest weakness is missing tackles in the box as you say. People are in love with him being close to the LOS in the hybrid role, but I like his positioning in coverage and when he is matched up against TEs. If he could clean up the tackling, then I'd have little bad to say about him.
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Forge


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

y2lamanaki wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
Eric Reid is the most overrated player on this team, but like Fureys said we have so little depth.


Eric Reid is the most underrated player on this team. By the way some comment about him in gameday threads, you'd think we were playing Mark Roman back there again.

He's average. Not terrible like many say. Not great (like nobody says). Hence - he's underrated.


Agreed. I view him as a very average safety. When he's got talent around him, he'll even come off looking very good..I think he has a sizeable jump in that regard (more so than the average player who plays on a great team).
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48 1/2ers


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

y2lamanaki wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
Eric Reid is the most overrated player on this team, but like Fureys said we have so little depth.


Eric Reid is the most underrated player on this team. By the way some comment about him in gameday threads, you'd think we were playing Mark Roman back there again.

He's average. Not terrible like many say. Not great (like nobody says). Hence - he's underrated.

I disagree, I think he's far below average. He was an average safety his rookie and second season but he's not good or even average. He has gotten worse, and was a liability last year.
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Forge


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J-ALL-DAY wrote:
Forge wrote:
For a second round pick, I consider him a bit of a bust, just because I don't view him as a starting safety. If we utilitzed him in that hybrid nickel linebacker role, and he was specialized in that way, I'd be more forgiving - specialized players can be worth a 2. But it doesn't appear that we are doing that. As a starting safety, however, I find him underwhelming.

I like his coverage in the box coming downhill. Backpedaling and tracking downfield? You can't really be super happy with that right now, are you?


Do you have any examples of him backpedaling and tracking downfield and doing a bad job or something? He isn't asked to do too much of it, but I like how physical he gets with opposing TEs at the LOS. That was underutilized by the coaching staff last season.

Again though, I'm really not sure how to judge the back end with such a putrid run defense and lack of pass rush.

To me, Tartt's biggest weakness is missing tackles in the box as you say. People are in love with him being close to the LOS in the hybrid role, but I like his positioning in coverage and when he is matched up against TEs. If he could clean up the tackling, then I'd have little bad to say about him.


Let me see what I can find as it may be hard to track on video but I know the game I'm thinking of where I really disliked him in coverage was one of the Seattle games.

The Austin Hooper TD was one where you can see it, even though it's not a long pass (only a 9 yarder). Tartt starts to break back as he isn't pushed up against the line on him. He's slow to react and ends up well behind hooper (a step or two) even though they're only on the 9 yard line. Yeah, it's only 9 yards, but it's the backtracking and following the receiver that I'm talking about.

More than anything, in coverage, Tartt does a few things poorly - I don't think he tracks receivers well, but I also think he takes some god awful angles at times.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

48 1/2ers wrote:
y2lamanaki wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
Eric Reid is the most overrated player on this team, but like Fureys said we have so little depth.


Eric Reid is the most underrated player on this team. By the way some comment about him in gameday threads, you'd think we were playing Mark Roman back there again.

He's average. Not terrible like many say. Not great (like nobody says). Hence - he's underrated.

I disagree, I think he's far below average. He was an average safety his rookie and second season but he's not good or even average. He has gotten worse, and was a liability last year.


In fairness, the entire team was a liability last year Laughing
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