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a case for our WRs
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Fureys49ers


Joined: 31 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pandomonium wrote:
Fureys49ers wrote:
A complimentary or specialist type WR when it comes to a home run threat should never be anything more than your #3 WR. Mainly because if the down and distance doesn't suit their "specialty" or isn't a situation that would require in Smith's case, running an intermediate to deep route, he becomes fairly useless. We've all seen year after year now just what happens when you ask Torrey Smith to do anything other than run an intermediate to deep route, I'm actually fairly certain defenses just started ignoring him altogether unless the down and distance was right.

Kerley as Forge said is just a guy, supposedly a quick, explosive slot WR/play maker. On his career he averages under 10 yards a PR, right around 15 yards a KR, 1 return TD, about 10 yards per catch and averages 6 plays over 20 yards a season. Nothing about that is special, and factor in the fact he's 5'9 maybe 180 lbs and he's not much of a mismatch against a HS CB let alone and NFL CB. It's actually sad and laughable how bad our WRs have been for so long that we consider him to be above average or even average. There's a reason the Jets stopped using him after his third year, he became a roster bubble player and they added more to their WR corps. There is absolutely nothing special that you couldn't find in 75% of the WRs in the NFL today.

Streamer, Patton, Ellington, Rogers, Harper, Smelter...? Really, do we expect anything out of any of these guys? These are all players who spend their whole career fighting for a special teams position and you keep on the practice squad as long as you can. Maybe you keep one or two around cause they have something that intrigues you, but you don't rely on these guys, you don't ask one of them to actually produce or expect it. If ya do, you end up with the sorry mess that is our WR depth. The fact that we could pick up Kerley so late in the preseason and have him become our "best" WR immediately should tell you more than enough in what we already have on our team.


Actually, That's only partially true. we don't know what we have in smelter because he has been on IR the entirety of his NFL career. (he was baalke's last ACL redshirt draft pick) Rogers lit it up in the Canadian league and was slated to be a starter before he got hurt in training camp So as far as those two guys go we have NO CLUE what to expect if we are to think rationally.

I have no idea who "Streamer" is but Rod "Streeter" was actually a starter in Oakland and somewhat productive. He was allowed to walk after the drafting of Amari Cooper and the FA acquisition of Crabtree.

Now I Do understand may folks' disdain for Patton and Ellington in their past roles to an extent. However, I want to bring up a fact to make you scratch your collective heads....When during the time we have had an OC who ran an offense imaginative enough to utilize these guys' strengths??


I meant Streeter, stupid auto correct on the phone. Streeter was never a real starter for the Raiders, he was a part of the hodge podge they called an offense before they got Cooper and Crabs because their WR corps wasn't very good. I believe back then the Raiders had Roberts and Holmes as well, guess who's still on their roster producing and who was let go?

Smelter has been on our roster for how long now and has done what exactly? If he can't even climb the sorry depth chart we throw out on Sunday's now I doubt he's able to if we finally add some talent. He wasn't Baalkes last ACL pick either.

Rogers was slated to be a starting WR, really? Haha, even before playing a preseason game? And he lit up who in the CFL?

We have by far the worst WR talent in the NFL. Poor coaching aside from Tomsula I guess is who you are referring too, which I don't even attribute the biggest part of these WRs struggles as that would be the poor play at QB, using scrubs from other teams and being forced to start them immediately does not make any of these guys quality.

The reason Patton and Ellington have never amounted to anything is not because of their coaching. Ellington couldn't stay healthy through a sneeze let alone an NFL season and Patton just isn't very good, he's had every opportunity a WR trying to make in the NFL could ask for and has done nothing with it, next guy up please.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fureys49ers wrote:
A complimentary or specialist type WR when it comes to a home run threat should never be anything more than your #3 WR. Mainly because if the down and distance doesn't suit their "specialty" or isn't a situation that would require in Smith's case, running an intermediate to deep route, he becomes fairly useless. We've all seen year after year now just what happens when you ask Torrey Smith to do anything other than run an intermediate to deep route, I'm actually fairly certain defenses just started ignoring him altogether unless the down and distance was right.

Kerley as Forge said is just a guy, supposedly a quick, explosive slot WR/play maker. On his career he averages under 10 yards a PR, right around 15 yards a KR, 1 return TD, about 10 yards per catch and averages 6 plays over 20 yards a season. Nothing about that is special, and factor in the fact he's 5'9 maybe 180 lbs and he's not much of a mismatch against a HS CB let alone and NFL CB. It's actually sad and laughable how bad our WRs have been for so long that we consider him to be above average or even average. There's a reason the Jets stopped using him after his third year, he became a roster bubble player and they added more to their WR corps. There is absolutely nothing special that you couldn't find in 75% of the WRs in the NFL today.

Streamer, Patton, Ellington, Rogers, Harper, Smelter...? Really, do we expect anything out of any of these guys? These are all players who spend their whole career fighting for a special teams position and you keep on the practice squad as long as you can. Maybe you keep one or two around cause they have something that intrigues you, but you don't rely on these guys, you don't ask one of them to actually produce or expect it. If ya do, you end up with the sorry mess that is our WR depth. The fact that we could pick up Kerley so late in the preseason and have him become our "best" WR immediately should tell you more than enough in what we already have on our team.



I think Smith has been misused. I believe he is not just a specialist. At worst, he's a specialist. But the guy actually pretty good hands, when the ball is actually thrown his way. He's just not a #1 type who will get open on his own. You can scheme a #2 open, but you can't do that on a regular basis without a real #1 who can create separation for himself or catch the ball even when covered. No opponent has had to cheat to cover our receivers. They only have to stick to their assignments, because we didn't have the WRs or QB to really challenge them. Once we have a guy other teams have to change their assignments for, then you can scheme other receivers open. Torrey Smith's biggest value is as a deep threat, that's his specialty, but it doesn't mean that's all he can do. We didn't even send him deep, so that limited a lot of the things we could do with him. Even with a limited route tree, Smith could be a very valuable WR: Go route (duh), hook/curl (playing off the go route), then sprinkle in a few double moves. No, he might not be the guy to move the chains on an important third down. But in a combination with another WR who can actually move the chains, I believe he'd be terrific. The chain mover would make him more effective, and this effectiveness would make the chain mover more effective as well. By himself, Torrey Smith is nothing. But as part of a good receiving corp, I think he could be excellent.

I like Kerley, even though he's barely more than a roster bubble player. Not the quickest or fastest, and definitely not the biggest. But I like players who give their all on the field, even in a losing effort. Kerley was probably our toughest player on offense all year. He made tough catches and took hits and got right back up. He has some savvy to him, and was usually the only reliable target at Gabbert's and Kap's disposal. He's not a returner, to me. He himself said he never liked returning, I think. He's an emergency returner, if I'm the HC. But I like what he brings as a 4th receiver, even as a third. He won't get open fast, but on a broken play, he'll usually find a spot.

Let's get a top guy, a true #1. If we can't get Alshon, I'd much prefer getting Mike Williams or Corey Davis than getting Trubisky in the first (if possible, with a trade down?). If we got Trubisky, who would he throw to? A bunch of WRs whose roles don't match their abilities?
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Fureys49ers


Joined: 31 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rudy if we got Trubisky at #2 there are more WRs in the draft than just Williams and Davis. JuJu Smith-Schuster is one I really like, Cooper Kupp is going to be a very good NFL WR, Curtis Samuel is a player I could see thriving in Shanahans offense and a great offensive weapon, Josh Reynolds, Zay Jones, Isaiah Ford, Carlos Henderson I think are all really good 3rd round guys. Then there are the slot guys like Switzer and Taylor who will be available later.

In FA there's Alshon Jeffery, Brandon Marshall possibly, Robert Woods, Pierre Garcon, maybe Terrelle Pryor, Desean Jackson, even solid big bodied guys like Kenny Britt, Kamar Aiken and Brandon Lafell. Then a bunch of guys who might just need an opportunity to start like Adam Thielin, Aldrick Robinson, Terrence Williams and others
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Pandomonium


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fureys49ers wrote:
Pandomonium wrote:
Fureys49ers wrote:
A complimentary or specialist type WR when it comes to a home run threat should never be anything more than your #3 WR. Mainly because if the down and distance doesn't suit their "specialty" or isn't a situation that would require in Smith's case, running an intermediate to deep route, he becomes fairly useless. We've all seen year after year now just what happens when you ask Torrey Smith to do anything other than run an intermediate to deep route, I'm actually fairly certain defenses just started ignoring him altogether unless the down and distance was right.

Kerley as Forge said is just a guy, supposedly a quick, explosive slot WR/play maker. On his career he averages under 10 yards a PR, right around 15 yards a KR, 1 return TD, about 10 yards per catch and averages 6 plays over 20 yards a season. Nothing about that is special, and factor in the fact he's 5'9 maybe 180 lbs and he's not much of a mismatch against a HS CB let alone and NFL CB. It's actually sad and laughable how bad our WRs have been for so long that we consider him to be above average or even average. There's a reason the Jets stopped using him after his third year, he became a roster bubble player and they added more to their WR corps. There is absolutely nothing special that you couldn't find in 75% of the WRs in the NFL today.

Streamer, Patton, Ellington, Rogers, Harper, Smelter...? Really, do we expect anything out of any of these guys? These are all players who spend their whole career fighting for a special teams position and you keep on the practice squad as long as you can. Maybe you keep one or two around cause they have something that intrigues you, but you don't rely on these guys, you don't ask one of them to actually produce or expect it. If ya do, you end up with the sorry mess that is our WR depth. The fact that we could pick up Kerley so late in the preseason and have him become our "best" WR immediately should tell you more than enough in what we already have on our team.


Actually, That's only partially true. we don't know what we have in smelter because he has been on IR the entirety of his NFL career. (he was baalke's last ACL redshirt draft pick) Rogers lit it up in the Canadian league and was slated to be a starter before he got hurt in training camp So as far as those two guys go we have NO CLUE what to expect if we are to think rationally.

I have no idea who "Streamer" is but Rod "Streeter" was actually a starter in Oakland and somewhat productive. He was allowed to walk after the drafting of Amari Cooper and the FA acquisition of Crabtree.

Now I Do understand may folks' disdain for Patton and Ellington in their past roles to an extent. However, I want to bring up a fact to make you scratch your collective heads....When during the time we have had an OC who ran an offense imaginative enough to utilize these guys' strengths??


I meant Streeter, stupid auto correct on the phone. Streeter was never a real starter for the Raiders, he was a part of the hodge podge they called an offense before they got Cooper and Crabs because their WR corps wasn't very good. I believe back then he Raiders had Roberts and Holmes as well, guess who's still on their roster producing and who was let go?

Smelter has been on our roster for how long now and has done what exactly? If he can't even climb the sorry depth chart we throw out on Sunday's
Go back and check to see how long he was on IR and never fully healthy
I'm not saying he is Jerry Rice but you are speaking as though he has been active the entire time which is not true.


now I doubt he's able to if we finally add some talent. He wasn't Baalkes last ACL pick either. Touche' it was redmon the CB, arguing this point is pointless I threw that out there to indicate he was a torn ACL draft pick. The fact that he wasn't the last one is not that big of a deal.

Rogers was slated to be a starting WR, really? Haha, even before playing a preseason game? And he lit up who in the CFL?

How about the entire league? He made the CFL equivalent of the all pro team at WR and led the league in yardage and receiving touchdowns and was 4th in receptions en route to a Grey Cup Championship. Yes we know that its the CFL and not the level of the NFL however he was the BEST WR in the CFL when we signed him. and FYI there was plenty of interest from many other NFL teams to sign him. Again, not saying this guy is going to be the next Jerry Rice or Terrell Owens for us. I am merely reinforcing my initial statement of "We have NO CLUE what we have in him" and to basically destroy the false verisimilitude of your statements or implications that they have spent their entire career fighting just to get on special teams or we should not rely on these guys or not expect any thing from them.



We have by far the worst WR talent in the NFL.


the stats would indicate this yes, however my post is not saying that they are great or even serviceable, but merely they could be more productive if they were used correctly

Poor coaching aside from Tomsula I guess is who you are referring too,
Oh no this goes far beyond Tomsula who, I thought you knew is not the designer of the offense but the long string of offensive coordinators who have under-utilized our personnel for years....even the Harbaugh years.

which I don't even attribute the biggest part of these WRs struggles as that would be the poor play at QB,

yes that is a big part of it however as I said before, Scheming (putting the right players in the right place where their specific skill set can be amplified) can fix some of this. Of course balls flying 20 ft over your head or thrown into the ground have more to do with QB as you said.

using scrubs from other teams and being forced to start them immediately does not make any of these guys quality

If you try to mow your lawn with kitchen scissors and it doesn't work out well, throw them in the trash and call them "crappy lawnmower" its not the tool's fault. It is actually the fault of the person who used the wrong tool for the wrong job, Which is the point of my entire post



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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fureys49ers wrote:
Rudy if we got Trubisky at #2 there are more WRs in the draft than just Williams and Davis. JuJu Smith-Schuster is one I really like, Cooper Kupp is going to be a very good NFL WR, Curtis Samuel is a player I could see thriving in Shanahans offense and a great offensive weapon, Josh Reynolds, Zay Jones, Isaiah Ford, Carlos Henderson I think are all really good 3rd round guys. Then there are the slot guys like Switzer and Taylor who will be available later.

In FA there's Alshon Jeffery, Brandon Marshall possibly, Robert Woods, Pierre Garcon, maybe Terrelle Pryor, Desean Jackson, even solid big bodied guys like Kenny Britt, Kamar Aiken and Brandon Lafell. Then a bunch of guys who might just need an opportunity to start like Adam Thielin, Aldrick Robinson, Terrence Williams and others



There are good receivers past Williams and Davis, I agree. But they would merely replace Smith, and not really displace him. They would make him expendable, but our receiver situation would only marginally improve, or stay the same. I like Juju, not sure if he's a future #1. Maybe one of these guys you named can become a #1. Antonio Brown wasn't a first rounder. DeAndre Hopkins was a late first rounder. Every few years, someone comes out of nowhere to become an elite receiver. Maybe we luck out and find one. So sure, we don't have to go with Williams or Davis, although I do think it would be a great move to add one of them.

Obviously, my plan A is definitely Alshon Jeffery. Make him the highest paid WR in the NFL. If/when Kylo signs on to be our Head Coach, he'll be our biggest selling point to Alshon, and maybe we have a shot at signing him. We just have to promise him we'll figure out the QB situation (this year or next) and that he will be the centerpiece of our offense, on top of a dump truck full of money. Plan A, all the way. If we do get him, how sweet would it be to get any of the guys you listed...

If we miss out on Alshon, then maybe Williams or Davis become a lot more attractive to us.
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Fureys49ers


Joined: 31 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pandomonium wrote:
Fureys49ers wrote:
Pandomonium wrote:
Fureys49ers wrote:
A complimentary or specialist type WR when it comes to a home run threat should never be anything more than your #3 WR. Mainly because if the down and distance doesn't suit their "specialty" or isn't a situation that would require in Smith's case, running an intermediate to deep route, he becomes fairly useless. We've all seen year after year now just what happens when you ask Torrey Smith to do anything other than run an intermediate to deep route, I'm actually fairly certain defenses just started ignoring him altogether unless the down and distance was right.

Kerley as Forge said is just a guy, supposedly a quick, explosive slot WR/play maker. On his career he averages under 10 yards a PR, right around 15 yards a KR, 1 return TD, about 10 yards per catch and averages 6 plays over 20 yards a season. Nothing about that is special, and factor in the fact he's 5'9 maybe 180 lbs and he's not much of a mismatch against a HS CB let alone and NFL CB. It's actually sad and laughable how bad our WRs have been for so long that we consider him to be above average or even average. There's a reason the Jets stopped using him after his third year, he became a roster bubble player and they added more to their WR corps. There is absolutely nothing special that you couldn't find in 75% of the WRs in the NFL today.

Streamer, Patton, Ellington, Rogers, Harper, Smelter...? Really, do we expect anything out of any of these guys? These are all players who spend their whole career fighting for a special teams position and you keep on the practice squad as long as you can. Maybe you keep one or two around cause they have something that intrigues you, but you don't rely on these guys, you don't ask one of them to actually produce or expect it. If ya do, you end up with the sorry mess that is our WR depth. The fact that we could pick up Kerley so late in the preseason and have him become our "best" WR immediately should tell you more than enough in what we already have on our team.


Actually, That's only partially true. we don't know what we have in smelter because he has been on IR the entirety of his NFL career. (he was baalke's last ACL redshirt draft pick) Rogers lit it up in the Canadian league and was slated to be a starter before he got hurt in training camp So as far as those two guys go we have NO CLUE what to expect if we are to think rationally.

I have no idea who "Streamer" is but Rod "Streeter" was actually a starter in Oakland and somewhat productive. He was allowed to walk after the drafting of Amari Cooper and the FA acquisition of Crabtree.

Now I Do understand may folks' disdain for Patton and Ellington in their past roles to an extent. However, I want to bring up a fact to make you scratch your collective heads....When during the time we have had an OC who ran an offense imaginative enough to utilize these guys' strengths??


I meant Streeter, stupid auto correct on the phone. Streeter was never a real starter for the Raiders, he was a part of the hodge podge they called an offense before they got Cooper and Crabs because their WR corps wasn't very good. I believe back then he Raiders had Roberts and Holmes as well, guess who's still on their roster producing and who was let go?

Smelter has been on our roster for how long now and has done what exactly? If he can't even climb the sorry depth chart we throw out on Sunday's
Go back and check to see how long he was on IR and never fully healthy
I'm not saying he is Jerry Rice but you are speaking as though he has been active the entire time which is not true.


now I doubt he's able to if we finally add some talent. He wasn't Baalkes last ACL pick either. Touche' it was redmon the CB, arguing this point is pointless I threw that out there to indicate he was a torn ACL draft pick. The fact that he wasn't the last one is not that big of a deal.

Rogers was slated to be a starting WR, really? Haha, even before playing a preseason game? And he lit up who in the CFL?

How about the entire league? He made the CFL equivalent of the all pro team at WR and led the league in yardage and receiving touchdowns and was 4th in receptions en route to a Grey Cup Championship. Yes we know that its the CFL and not the level of the NFL however he was the BEST WR in the CFL when we signed him. and FYI there was plenty of interest from many other NFL teams to sign him. Again, not saying this guy is going to be the next Jerry Rice or Terrell Owens for us. I am merely reinforcing my initial statement of "We have NO CLUE what we have in him" and to basically destroy the false verisimilitude of your statements or implications that they have spent their entire career fighting just to get on special teams or we should not rely on these guys or not expect any thing from them.



We have by far the worst WR talent in the NFL.


the stats would indicate this yes, however my post is not saying that they are great or even serviceable, but merely they could be more productive if they were used correctly

Poor coaching aside from Tomsula I guess is who you are referring too,
Oh no this goes far beyond Tomsula who, I thought you knew is not the designer of the offense but the long string of offensive coordinators who have under-utilized our personnel for years....even the Harbaugh years.

which I don't even attribute the biggest part of these WRs struggles as that would be the poor play at QB,

yes that is a big part of it however as I said before, Scheming (putting the right players in the right place where their specific skill set can be amplified) can fix some of this. Of course balls flying 20 ft over your head or thrown into the ground have more to do with QB as you said.

using scrubs from other teams and being forced to start them immediately does not make any of these guys quality

If you try to mow your lawn with kitchen scissors and it doesn't work out well, throw them in the trash and call them "crappy lawnmower" its not the tool's fault. It is actually the fault of the person who used the wrong tool for the wrong job, Which is the point of my entire post




Did this have a point? If you are saying "used correctly these guys wouldn't be as bad" is in fact saying that these guys are serviceable. Complaining about the Harbaugh years? Really haha? Is there no pleasing us.
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Forge


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
Fureys49ers wrote:
A complimentary or specialist type WR when it comes to a home run threat should never be anything more than your #3 WR. Mainly because if the down and distance doesn't suit their "specialty" or isn't a situation that would require in Smith's case, running an intermediate to deep route, he becomes fairly useless. We've all seen year after year now just what happens when you ask Torrey Smith to do anything other than run an intermediate to deep route, I'm actually fairly certain defenses just started ignoring him altogether unless the down and distance was right.

Kerley as Forge said is just a guy, supposedly a quick, explosive slot WR/play maker. On his career he averages under 10 yards a PR, right around 15 yards a KR, 1 return TD, about 10 yards per catch and averages 6 plays over 20 yards a season. Nothing about that is special, and factor in the fact he's 5'9 maybe 180 lbs and he's not much of a mismatch against a HS CB let alone and NFL CB. It's actually sad and laughable how bad our WRs have been for so long that we consider him to be above average or even average. There's a reason the Jets stopped using him after his third year, he became a roster bubble player and they added more to their WR corps. There is absolutely nothing special that you couldn't find in 75% of the WRs in the NFL today.

Streamer, Patton, Ellington, Rogers, Harper, Smelter...? Really, do we expect anything out of any of these guys? These are all players who spend their whole career fighting for a special teams position and you keep on the practice squad as long as you can. Maybe you keep one or two around cause they have something that intrigues you, but you don't rely on these guys, you don't ask one of them to actually produce or expect it. If ya do, you end up with the sorry mess that is our WR depth. The fact that we could pick up Kerley so late in the preseason and have him become our "best" WR immediately should tell you more than enough in what we already have on our team.



I think Smith has been misused. I believe he is not just a specialist. At worst, he's a specialist. But the guy actually pretty good hands, when the ball is actually thrown his way. He's just not a #1 type who will get open on his own. You can scheme a #2 open, but you can't do that on a regular basis without a real #1 who can create separation for himself or catch the ball even when covered. No opponent has had to cheat to cover our receivers. They only have to stick to their assignments, because we didn't have the WRs or QB to really challenge them. Once we have a guy other teams have to change their assignments for, then you can scheme other receivers open. Torrey Smith's biggest value is as a deep threat, that's his specialty, but it doesn't mean that's all he can do. We didn't even send him deep, so that limited a lot of the things we could do with him. Even with a limited route tree, Smith could be a very valuable WR: Go route (duh), hook/curl (playing off the go route), then sprinkle in a few double moves. No, he might not be the guy to move the chains on an important third down. But in a combination with another WR who can actually move the chains, I believe he'd be terrific. The chain mover would make him more effective, and this effectiveness would make the chain mover more effective as well. By himself, Torrey Smith is nothing. But as part of a good receiving corp, I think he could be excellent.

I like Kerley, even though he's barely more than a roster bubble player. Not the quickest or fastest, and definitely not the biggest. But I like players who give their all on the field, even in a losing effort. Kerley was probably our toughest player on offense all year. He made tough catches and took hits and got right back up. He has some savvy to him, and was usually the only reliable target at Gabbert's and Kap's disposal. He's not a returner, to me. He himself said he never liked returning, I think. He's an emergency returner, if I'm the HC. But I like what he brings as a 4th receiver, even as a third. He won't get open fast, but on a broken play, he'll usually find a spot.

Let's get a top guy, a true #1. If we can't get Alshon, I'd much prefer getting Mike Williams or Corey Davis than getting Trubisky in the first (if possible, with a trade down?). If we got Trubisky, who would he throw to? A bunch of WRs whose roles don't match their abilities?


I Have never, not once, seen that used to describe Smith Laughing His career drop rate I believe is slightly above 5%, which isn't awful, but above the league average I would guess since only one team had a drop rate of 5% or over and only 5 total were 4.8% or higher. But drops aren't everything, especially given that different systems call different things drops, but I can't remember when I've seen the guy make a tough catch either. I think you can survive with him as a #2, but he's a low end one to me. His better fit to me wold be as a #3 and role player.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
Fureys49ers wrote:
A complimentary or specialist type WR when it comes to a home run threat should never be anything more than your #3 WR. Mainly because if the down and distance doesn't suit their "specialty" or isn't a situation that would require in Smith's case, running an intermediate to deep route, he becomes fairly useless. We've all seen year after year now just what happens when you ask Torrey Smith to do anything other than run an intermediate to deep route, I'm actually fairly certain defenses just started ignoring him altogether unless the down and distance was right.

Kerley as Forge said is just a guy, supposedly a quick, explosive slot WR/play maker. On his career he averages under 10 yards a PR, right around 15 yards a KR, 1 return TD, about 10 yards per catch and averages 6 plays over 20 yards a season. Nothing about that is special, and factor in the fact he's 5'9 maybe 180 lbs and he's not much of a mismatch against a HS CB let alone and NFL CB. It's actually sad and laughable how bad our WRs have been for so long that we consider him to be above average or even average. There's a reason the Jets stopped using him after his third year, he became a roster bubble player and they added more to their WR corps. There is absolutely nothing special that you couldn't find in 75% of the WRs in the NFL today.

Streamer, Patton, Ellington, Rogers, Harper, Smelter...? Really, do we expect anything out of any of these guys? These are all players who spend their whole career fighting for a special teams position and you keep on the practice squad as long as you can. Maybe you keep one or two around cause they have something that intrigues you, but you don't rely on these guys, you don't ask one of them to actually produce or expect it. If ya do, you end up with the sorry mess that is our WR depth. The fact that we could pick up Kerley so late in the preseason and have him become our "best" WR immediately should tell you more than enough in what we already have on our team.



I think Smith has been misused. I believe he is not just a specialist. At worst, he's a specialist. But the guy actually pretty good hands, when the ball is actually thrown his way. He's just not a #1 type who will get open on his own. You can scheme a #2 open, but you can't do that on a regular basis without a real #1 who can create separation for himself or catch the ball even when covered. No opponent has had to cheat to cover our receivers. They only have to stick to their assignments, because we didn't have the WRs or QB to really challenge them. Once we have a guy other teams have to change their assignments for, then you can scheme other receivers open. Torrey Smith's biggest value is as a deep threat, that's his specialty, but it doesn't mean that's all he can do. We didn't even send him deep, so that limited a lot of the things we could do with him. Even with a limited route tree, Smith could be a very valuable WR: Go route (duh), hook/curl (playing off the go route), then sprinkle in a few double moves. No, he might not be the guy to move the chains on an important third down. But in a combination with another WR who can actually move the chains, I believe he'd be terrific. The chain mover would make him more effective, and this effectiveness would make the chain mover more effective as well. By himself, Torrey Smith is nothing. But as part of a good receiving corp, I think he could be excellent.

I like Kerley, even though he's barely more than a roster bubble player. Not the quickest or fastest, and definitely not the biggest. But I like players who give their all on the field, even in a losing effort. Kerley was probably our toughest player on offense all year. He made tough catches and took hits and got right back up. He has some savvy to him, and was usually the only reliable target at Gabbert's and Kap's disposal. He's not a returner, to me. He himself said he never liked returning, I think. He's an emergency returner, if I'm the HC. But I like what he brings as a 4th receiver, even as a third. He won't get open fast, but on a broken play, he'll usually find a spot.

Let's get a top guy, a true #1. If we can't get Alshon, I'd much prefer getting Mike Williams or Corey Davis than getting Trubisky in the first (if possible, with a trade down?). If we got Trubisky, who would he throw to? A bunch of WRs whose roles don't match their abilities?


I Have never, not once, seen that used to describe Smith Laughing His career drop rate I believe is slightly above 5%, which isn't awful, but above the league average I would guess since only one team had a drop rate of 5% or over and only 5 total were 4.8% or higher. But drops aren't everything, especially given that different systems call different things drops, but I can't remember when I've seen the guy make a tough catch either. I think you can survive with him as a #2, but he's a low end one to me. His better fit to me wold be as a #3 and role player.



He made a couple of one hand circus catches these last two years. So maybe I should have said "He has pretty good hand". Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
Fureys49ers wrote:
A complimentary or specialist type WR when it comes to a home run threat should never be anything more than your #3 WR. Mainly because if the down and distance doesn't suit their "specialty" or isn't a situation that would require in Smith's case, running an intermediate to deep route, he becomes fairly useless. We've all seen year after year now just what happens when you ask Torrey Smith to do anything other than run an intermediate to deep route, I'm actually fairly certain defenses just started ignoring him altogether unless the down and distance was right.

Kerley as Forge said is just a guy, supposedly a quick, explosive slot WR/play maker. On his career he averages under 10 yards a PR, right around 15 yards a KR, 1 return TD, about 10 yards per catch and averages 6 plays over 20 yards a season. Nothing about that is special, and factor in the fact he's 5'9 maybe 180 lbs and he's not much of a mismatch against a HS CB let alone and NFL CB. It's actually sad and laughable how bad our WRs have been for so long that we consider him to be above average or even average. There's a reason the Jets stopped using him after his third year, he became a roster bubble player and they added more to their WR corps. There is absolutely nothing special that you couldn't find in 75% of the WRs in the NFL today.

Streamer, Patton, Ellington, Rogers, Harper, Smelter...? Really, do we expect anything out of any of these guys? These are all players who spend their whole career fighting for a special teams position and you keep on the practice squad as long as you can. Maybe you keep one or two around cause they have something that intrigues you, but you don't rely on these guys, you don't ask one of them to actually produce or expect it. If ya do, you end up with the sorry mess that is our WR depth. The fact that we could pick up Kerley so late in the preseason and have him become our "best" WR immediately should tell you more than enough in what we already have on our team.



I think Smith has been misused. I believe he is not just a specialist. At worst, he's a specialist. But the guy actually pretty good hands, when the ball is actually thrown his way. He's just not a #1 type who will get open on his own. You can scheme a #2 open, but you can't do that on a regular basis without a real #1 who can create separation for himself or catch the ball even when covered. No opponent has had to cheat to cover our receivers. They only have to stick to their assignments, because we didn't have the WRs or QB to really challenge them. Once we have a guy other teams have to change their assignments for, then you can scheme other receivers open. Torrey Smith's biggest value is as a deep threat, that's his specialty, but it doesn't mean that's all he can do. We didn't even send him deep, so that limited a lot of the things we could do with him. Even with a limited route tree, Smith could be a very valuable WR: Go route (duh), hook/curl (playing off the go route), then sprinkle in a few double moves. No, he might not be the guy to move the chains on an important third down. But in a combination with another WR who can actually move the chains, I believe he'd be terrific. The chain mover would make him more effective, and this effectiveness would make the chain mover more effective as well. By himself, Torrey Smith is nothing. But as part of a good receiving corp, I think he could be excellent.


Agreed.
Torrey is that guy who could really shine if he was on the other side of a big time playmaker


I like Kerley, even though he's barely more than a roster bubble player. Not the quickest or fastest, and definitely not the biggest. But I like players who give their all on the field, even in a losing effort. Kerley was probably our toughest player on offense all year. He made tough catches and took hits and got right back up. He has some savvy to him, and was usually the only reliable target at Gabbert's and Kap's disposal. He's not a returner, to me. He himself said he never liked returning, I think. He's an emergency returner, if I'm the HC. But I like what he brings as a 4th receiver, even as a third. He won't get open fast, but on a broken play, he'll usually find a spot.

Here's where we disagree. IMO I think he has a place as the teams slot WR and he is just a late bloomer. Some guys hit their peak late. I honestly feel like we haven't seen the best from this guy yet..I could be wrong just my opinion.


Let's get a top guy, a true #1.
Absolutely! I think a true #1 will elevate our entire WR depth chart.

If we can't get Alshon, I'd much prefer getting Mike Williams or Corey Davis than getting Trubisky in the first (if possible, with a trade down?). If we got Trubisky, who would he throw to? A bunch of WRs whose roles don't match their abilities?

I'm with you 95% there man.
the only thing I don't like is going after an Alshon Jeffrey IMO he is not a true #1. after that, I complete agree with you on the possible trade back.



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pandomonium wrote:
Fureys49ers wrote:
A complimentary or specialist type WR when it comes to a home run threat should never be anything more than your #3 WR. Mainly because if the down and distance doesn't suit their "specialty" or isn't a situation that would require in Smith's case, running an intermediate to deep route, he becomes fairly useless. We've all seen year after year now just what happens when you ask Torrey Smith to do anything other than run an intermediate to deep route, I'm actually fairly certain defenses just started ignoring him altogether unless the down and distance was right.

Kerley as Forge said is just a guy, supposedly a quick, explosive slot WR/play maker. On his career he averages under 10 yards a PR, right around 15 yards a KR, 1 return TD, about 10 yards per catch and averages 6 plays over 20 yards a season. Nothing about that is special, and factor in the fact he's 5'9 maybe 180 lbs and he's not much of a mismatch against a HS CB let alone and NFL CB. It's actually sad and laughable how bad our WRs have been for so long that we consider him to be above average or even average. There's a reason the Jets stopped using him after his third year, he became a roster bubble player and they added more to their WR corps. There is absolutely nothing special that you couldn't find in 75% of the WRs in the NFL today.

Streamer, Patton, Ellington, Rogers, Harper, Smelter...? Really, do we expect anything out of any of these guys? These are all players who spend their whole career fighting for a special teams position and you keep on the practice squad as long as you can. Maybe you keep one or two around cause they have something that intrigues you, but you don't rely on these guys, you don't ask one of them to actually produce or expect it. If ya do, you end up with the sorry mess that is our WR depth. The fact that we could pick up Kerley so late in the preseason and have him become our "best" WR immediately should tell you more than enough in what we already have on our team.


Actually, That's only partially true. we don't know what we have in smelter because he has been on IR the entirety of his NFL career. (he was baalke's last ACL redshirt draft pick) Rogers lit it up in the Canadian league and was slated to be a starter before he got hurt in training camp So as far as those two guys go we have NO CLUE what to expect if we are to think rationally.

I have no idea who "Streamer" is but Rod "Streeter" was actually a starter in Oakland and somewhat productive. He was allowed to walk after the drafting of Amari Cooper and the FA acquisition of Crabtree.

Now I Do understand may folks' disdain for Patton and Ellington in their past roles to an extent. However, I want to bring up a fact to make you scratch your collective heads....When during the time we have had an OC who ran an offense imaginative enough to utilize these guys' strengths??


Smelter hasn't been on the IR his entire career. He played some last year. We even waived him and he was available for anyone to pick up and yet they didn't. That's the only reason he's still on the team. Then it took forever for him to crack into a game on a team with probably the worst receiving talent in the NFL. That is not a good indicator of what type of player he was.

Streater is a fringe roster guy. Wr 4/5 type. He had one season in Oakland with slightly less than 900 yards where the other receivers on the roster were: Brice Butler, Denarius Moore, Andre Holmes, and Jacoby Ford. And I believe he was the only player to play all 16 games that year, so yeah, the balls had to go somewhere.

And Rogers was an undrafted free agent who went to the Canadian League. Now, I'm intrigued by him as a player to see if there's actually anything there, but I'm not banking on it.

Ellington can't stay healthy and is very much a role player. Patton? I've been saying that ship has sailed for 2 years now. He's just not very good. Let's put it this way - in 2013, Streater caught 60 balls for nearly 900 yards in very much the situation that Patton is in now. Basically, forced much higher up the depth chart than he should have been. Streater was facing number 1 and number 2 corners all year, yet Streater did what he could and had a respectable season. Patton averaged less than 30 yards a game (14 starts) and half as many yards total.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I will say, a lot of this is verbage semantics. I see people saying we don't need an overhaul on the receiving corps, but to me, if you go out and sign Alshon, and then draft a guy in the first or second round to be your number 2, which puts everyone in their proper place (Torrey as a 3, Kerley exclusively as a slot chain mover, and then whoever is going to be wr #5) that's actually a total overhaul of the receiving corps because those 2 guys are on the field for nearly 100% of your passing plays barring injury. In total, it's likely 40% of your receiving corps changed over, and possibly as much as 50% (if you only keep 4 active). IF you add three, I really think it's an overhaul.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pandomonium wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
Fureys49ers wrote:
A complimentary or specialist type WR when it comes to a home run threat should never be anything more than your #3 WR. Mainly because if the down and distance doesn't suit their "specialty" or isn't a situation that would require in Smith's case, running an intermediate to deep route, he becomes fairly useless. We've all seen year after year now just what happens when you ask Torrey Smith to do anything other than run an intermediate to deep route, I'm actually fairly certain defenses just started ignoring him altogether unless the down and distance was right.

Kerley as Forge said is just a guy, supposedly a quick, explosive slot WR/play maker. On his career he averages under 10 yards a PR, right around 15 yards a KR, 1 return TD, about 10 yards per catch and averages 6 plays over 20 yards a season. Nothing about that is special, and factor in the fact he's 5'9 maybe 180 lbs and he's not much of a mismatch against a HS CB let alone and NFL CB. It's actually sad and laughable how bad our WRs have been for so long that we consider him to be above average or even average. There's a reason the Jets stopped using him after his third year, he became a roster bubble player and they added more to their WR corps. There is absolutely nothing special that you couldn't find in 75% of the WRs in the NFL today.

Streamer, Patton, Ellington, Rogers, Harper, Smelter...? Really, do we expect anything out of any of these guys? These are all players who spend their whole career fighting for a special teams position and you keep on the practice squad as long as you can. Maybe you keep one or two around cause they have something that intrigues you, but you don't rely on these guys, you don't ask one of them to actually produce or expect it. If ya do, you end up with the sorry mess that is our WR depth. The fact that we could pick up Kerley so late in the preseason and have him become our "best" WR immediately should tell you more than enough in what we already have on our team.



I think Smith has been misused. I believe he is not just a specialist. At worst, he's a specialist. But the guy actually pretty good hands, when the ball is actually thrown his way. He's just not a #1 type who will get open on his own. You can scheme a #2 open, but you can't do that on a regular basis without a real #1 who can create separation for himself or catch the ball even when covered. No opponent has had to cheat to cover our receivers. They only have to stick to their assignments, because we didn't have the WRs or QB to really challenge them. Once we have a guy other teams have to change their assignments for, then you can scheme other receivers open. Torrey Smith's biggest value is as a deep threat, that's his specialty, but it doesn't mean that's all he can do. We didn't even send him deep, so that limited a lot of the things we could do with him. Even with a limited route tree, Smith could be a very valuable WR: Go route (duh), hook/curl (playing off the go route), then sprinkle in a few double moves. No, he might not be the guy to move the chains on an important third down. But in a combination with another WR who can actually move the chains, I believe he'd be terrific. The chain mover would make him more effective, and this effectiveness would make the chain mover more effective as well. By himself, Torrey Smith is nothing. But as part of a good receiving corp, I think he could be excellent.


Agreed.
Torrey is that guy who could really shine if he was on the other side of a big time playmaker


I like Kerley, even though he's barely more than a roster bubble player. Not the quickest or fastest, and definitely not the biggest. But I like players who give their all on the field, even in a losing effort. Kerley was probably our toughest player on offense all year. He made tough catches and took hits and got right back up. He has some savvy to him, and was usually the only reliable target at Gabbert's and Kap's disposal. He's not a returner, to me. He himself said he never liked returning, I think. He's an emergency returner, if I'm the HC. But I like what he brings as a 4th receiver, even as a third. He won't get open fast, but on a broken play, he'll usually find a spot.

Here's where we disagree. IMO I think he has a place as the teams slot WR and he is just a late bloomer. Some guys hit their peak late. I honestly feel like we haven't seen the best from this guy yet..I could be wrong just my opinion.


Let's get a top guy, a true #1.
Absolutely! I think a true #1 will elevate our entire WR depth chart.

If we can't get Alshon, I'd much prefer getting Mike Williams or Corey Davis than getting Trubisky in the first (if possible, with a trade down?). If we got Trubisky, who would he throw to? A bunch of WRs whose roles don't match their abilities?

I'm with you 95% there man.
the only thing I don't like is going after an Alshon Jeffrey IMO he is not a true #1. after that, I complete agree with you on the possible trade back.





I thikn we're not that far apart on Kerley. I did say I like him as a third receiver (probably more than many on here). But I do see his limitations. He's not the quickness mismatch that can drive other teams crazy. He's not Edelman/Welker/etc. I love his toughness and his competitiveness, that's why I think there's a place for him on my team. But he could easily be displaced (down to 4th receiver) by a quicker, more explosive slot receiver. And oftentimes, #1 receivers can be good slot receivers, so our #3 receiver doesn't have to be a slot guy. He can be an outside receiver who's off the field when we play only two receivers, and can be an outside receiver if we move our #1 over to the slot. I think Kerley is easily displaceable as a third receiver, but could be a reliable target and a good player to round out the receiving corp. Again, all of it hinges on getting a true #1 receiver.

I think Alshon is a #1. He makes the tough catches. Opponents have to take him into account. He's not a speedster, so he can't really compare to a Julio Jones or an Antonio Brown, but he finds ways to get open and can outjump defensive backs and come down with the ball. To me, that's good enough for what I want from a #1 WR. And he would make a guy like Torrey so much better.
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Pandomonium


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
Pandomonium wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
Fureys49ers wrote:
A complimentary or specialist type WR when it comes to a home run threat should never be anything more than your #3 WR. Mainly because if the down and distance doesn't suit their "specialty" or isn't a situation that would require in Smith's case, running an intermediate to deep route, he becomes fairly useless. We've all seen year after year now just what happens when you ask Torrey Smith to do anything other than run an intermediate to deep route, I'm actually fairly certain defenses just started ignoring him altogether unless the down and distance was right.

Kerley as Forge said is just a guy, supposedly a quick, explosive slot WR/play maker. On his career he averages under 10 yards a PR, right around 15 yards a KR, 1 return TD, about 10 yards per catch and averages 6 plays over 20 yards a season. Nothing about that is special, and factor in the fact he's 5'9 maybe 180 lbs and he's not much of a mismatch against a HS CB let alone and NFL CB. It's actually sad and laughable how bad our WRs have been for so long that we consider him to be above average or even average. There's a reason the Jets stopped using him after his third year, he became a roster bubble player and they added more to their WR corps. There is absolutely nothing special that you couldn't find in 75% of the WRs in the NFL today.

Streamer, Patton, Ellington, Rogers, Harper, Smelter...? Really, do we expect anything out of any of these guys? These are all players who spend their whole career fighting for a special teams position and you keep on the practice squad as long as you can. Maybe you keep one or two around cause they have something that intrigues you, but you don't rely on these guys, you don't ask one of them to actually produce or expect it. If ya do, you end up with the sorry mess that is our WR depth. The fact that we could pick up Kerley so late in the preseason and have him become our "best" WR immediately should tell you more than enough in what we already have on our team.



I think Smith has been misused. I believe he is not just a specialist. At worst, he's a specialist. But the guy actually pretty good hands, when the ball is actually thrown his way. He's just not a #1 type who will get open on his own. You can scheme a #2 open, but you can't do that on a regular basis without a real #1 who can create separation for himself or catch the ball even when covered. No opponent has had to cheat to cover our receivers. They only have to stick to their assignments, because we didn't have the WRs or QB to really challenge them. Once we have a guy other teams have to change their assignments for, then you can scheme other receivers open. Torrey Smith's biggest value is as a deep threat, that's his specialty, but it doesn't mean that's all he can do. We didn't even send him deep, so that limited a lot of the things we could do with him. Even with a limited route tree, Smith could be a very valuable WR: Go route (duh), hook/curl (playing off the go route), then sprinkle in a few double moves. No, he might not be the guy to move the chains on an important third down. But in a combination with another WR who can actually move the chains, I believe he'd be terrific. The chain mover would make him more effective, and this effectiveness would make the chain mover more effective as well. By himself, Torrey Smith is nothing. But as part of a good receiving corp, I think he could be excellent.


Agreed.
Torrey is that guy who could really shine if he was on the other side of a big time playmaker


I like Kerley, even though he's barely more than a roster bubble player. Not the quickest or fastest, and definitely not the biggest. But I like players who give their all on the field, even in a losing effort. Kerley was probably our toughest player on offense all year. He made tough catches and took hits and got right back up. He has some savvy to him, and was usually the only reliable target at Gabbert's and Kap's disposal. He's not a returner, to me. He himself said he never liked returning, I think. He's an emergency returner, if I'm the HC. But I like what he brings as a 4th receiver, even as a third. He won't get open fast, but on a broken play, he'll usually find a spot.

Here's where we disagree. IMO I think he has a place as the teams slot WR and he is just a late bloomer. Some guys hit their peak late. I honestly feel like we haven't seen the best from this guy yet..I could be wrong just my opinion.


Let's get a top guy, a true #1.
Absolutely! I think a true #1 will elevate our entire WR depth chart.

If we can't get Alshon, I'd much prefer getting Mike Williams or Corey Davis than getting Trubisky in the first (if possible, with a trade down?). If we got Trubisky, who would he throw to? A bunch of WRs whose roles don't match their abilities?

I'm with you 95% there man.
the only thing I don't like is going after an Alshon Jeffrey IMO he is not a true #1. after that, I complete agree with you on the possible trade back.





I thikn we're not that far apart on Kerley. I did say I like him as a third receiver (probably more than many on here). But I do see his limitations. He's not the quickness mismatch that can drive other teams crazy. He's not Edelman/Welker/etc. I love his toughness and his competitiveness, that's why I think there's a place for him on my team. But he could easily be displaced (down to 4th receiver) by a quicker, more explosive slot receiver. And oftentimes, #1 receivers can be good slot receivers, so our #3 receiver doesn't have to be a slot guy. He can be an outside receiver who's off the field when we play only two receivers, and can be an outside receiver if we move our #1 over to the slot. I think Kerley is easily displaceable as a third receiver, but could be a reliable target and a good player to round out the receiving corp. Again, all of it hinges on getting a true #1 receiver.

I think Alshon is a #1. He makes the tough catches. Opponents have to take him into account. He's not a speedster, so he can't really compare to a Julio Jones or an Antonio Brown, but he finds ways to get open and can outjump defensive backs and come down with the ball. To me, that's good enough for what I want from a #1 WR. And he would make a guy like Torrey so much better.


I want to make sure I'm clear. I don't want you to think I think that Alshon is blah.
I think he is a definite upgrade no doubt. I just think we can do better for our "true #1" like we both like to say.

I just watched this senior bowl and this Tay Jones kid from ECU was simply amazing. I'm interested in seeing him at the combine running his drills. and possibly some pro day footage with a QB he's used to. He may be available with our 34th overall pick
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zay Jones should very much be available at pick #34 although I think he'll be there at our 3rd round pick as well. Him and Cooper Kupp definitely are the winners from the senior bowl.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fureys49ers wrote:
Zay Jones should very much be available at pick #34 although I think he'll be there at our 3rd round pick as well. Him and Cooper Kupp definitely are the winners from the senior bowl.


No doubt. The nice thing about things like this is that if they pushed themselves into round 2, they may be pushing someone out who wasn't there at the senior bowl. If we don't address wide receiver in rounds 1 and 2, a guy like Chris Godwin could easily fall out of the second (maybe third depending on the combine) and be there at round 3/4. Carlos Henderson could get a delayed call in the middle rounds. Guys like that.
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