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Pandomonium


Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 3149
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:25 pm    Post subject: a case for our WRs Reply with quote

I read many post on here and I see guys make comments about our WR corps like " worst WRs in the league" or "sub par WRs" or "garbage WRs".

Here's my take on our WRs:

When you attempt to make a thoroughbred into a ranch horse and he doesn't do well herding cattle. You shouldn't sell him to the glue factory because, That's not what he does.

When you try to make a shetland pony into a draft horse (pull the Budweiser wagon) and he can't do it you don't say he's a crappy draft horse and take him out back and shoot him.

I know you guys are saying "Pando, what in the H*** is your country behind trying to get at?"

well I'm saying this. We have a great WR corps as far as great #2's #3's and #4's
We are missing a true #1 WR
that Julio, AJ green, Dez, type of WR. The guy who makes DC's for other teams lose sleep.

at his absolute best Crabtree was a #2 the entire time he was here. That why he could not beat the other teams' best CB or at least break even. consistently.

None of our guys we have now can do this either and Frankly, Its not fair to them to call the garbage because they can't

we were asking #2 types to be #1's and asking our #3 and #4 type guys to be #2s

Smith is a #2 stretch the field, complimentary WR. His numbers have been pedestrian or just average at best. You put him on the other side of a TRUE #1 as watch him become a better WR than you thought he was.

Kerley is an Awesome #3 slot guy but many times he had to be forced into being the #2 or in some case the #1 and although he played well enough for anyone who is a fan of this team with half a brain to say he deserves to be resigned, If he can benefit from the true 1 and 2 on the outside, he could prove to be extremely explosive.

Patton. is that Tweener. Not quite a 2 but can play 3 better but since Kerley is clearly better, the reliable #4 when (And I think we could with Kyle's offense) go to 4 wides.

I said all that to say this....WE MUST stop being passive when it comes to drafting WRs. WE MUST grab a true #1 receiver early in the draft.

end of rant.
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StevenK


Joined: 15 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with a lot you are saying, but do you think that's Mike Williams or a Corey Davis? Where in the first would you take them? I would imagine we could trade back a bit, but we would probably have to get Williams right before the Titans or even Chicago depending on their QB situation and if they let Jeffery go. Or would you stay at 2 and draft Williams? I like Kerley, but I don't really care for Patton he hasn't been consistent. I wouldn't mind getting one of TE's in this draft because a lot of them are built like receivers and have them split out like we use to do with V. Davis. We have a lot of needs this year, so I think we will be going BPA unless Kyle and the GM fall in love with a certain player (more important a QB).
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Forge


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely not...just no...can't agree even slightly in the least.
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StevenK


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
Definitely not...just no...can't agree even slightly in the least.


Are u disagreeing saying we don't have any good receivers or that we don't need a number one?

I personally don't think we have any receivers that scare the opposing defenses. We do need a true number 1 receiver and if we decide to do that in this draft or free agency I wouldn't mind. The only receiver that I like on our team right now is Kerley and I think he maybe a free agent? I would like to extend him of course because he can produce in the slot.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
Definitely not...just no...can't agree even slightly in the least.



I somewhat agree with Pando. I don't think Patton should get another chance, because that ship has sailed. But Torrey Smith could re-become an excellent #2 next to a great #1 receiver. Kerley has shown to be more than adequate, in my mind. We could add a receiver to displace him (in which case, I still think Kerley would be a more than adequate 4th receiver), but the receiving corp as a whole would only be marginally better. What we truly need is that #1 receiver. Someone who can demand double-teams. Someone who can make contested catches (and I disagree with Pando that Crabtree was never a #1, because there was a stretch in 2012 where Crabtree was nearly unstoppable, converting third downs on a regular basis). Someone who, by the attention he brings to himself, makes the job easier for the other guys on the team. Easier for the QB, because he knows he can make tough throws with a good chance of completing it (something I think hurt Kap and Blaine, in that they would often not throw the ball rather than risk an incompletion), and easier for the other receivers, because they would spend less time being covered by the opponent's best corner, because they would often not have to worry about the safety help to their side, if the #1 has cleared him up, and also because seeing a great receiver make great catches has an effect on the others, who might just lay out for the big catch more often. A great WR should come with great work ethic, and that also elevates the work of the other receivers, who know they have to work just as hard if they want to earn more targets from their QB.

think we have a few fine receivers, but they're just not slotted right. Torrey shouldn't be a #1, Kerley shouldn't be a #2, Patton shouldn't be on the team, etc. Bring in a true #1, and pieces fit into place a lot more. Same goes for other positions. Gerald Hodges shouldn't be a starter. But I'd gladly take him as a back-up. We don't need to replace Hodges's spot on the roster, we need to find someone to play alongside Bowman that will displace guys like RayRay and Hodges down to back-up roles, and displace Michael Wilhoite off the roster entirely. Once we stop trying to replace every player we don't like as starters, and simply focus on bringing in better players to just displace them down, we're beginning to see a semblance of depth. We could look at the roster and see 4-5 really good players and think the situation is dire, and we need 40 new players to even compete. Or we can just realize that we simply need some top-end talent at key positions: one QB, one WR, one C, one ILB, one pass rusher, and perhaps one safety. Add these 6 players, and we suddenly have a competitive team.
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Forge


Joined: 19 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StevenK wrote:
Forge wrote:
Definitely not...just no...can't agree even slightly in the least.


Are u disagreeing saying we don't have any good receivers or that we don't need a number one?

I personally don't think we have any receivers that scare the opposing defenses. We do need a true number 1 receiver and if we decide to do that in this draft or free agency I wouldn't mind. The only receiver that I like on our team right now is Kerley and I think he maybe a free agent? I would like to extend him of course because he can produce in the slot.


Yeah, I'm saying our receivers are trash.
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Forge


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
Forge wrote:
Definitely not...just no...can't agree even slightly in the least.



I somewhat agree with Pando. I don't think Patton should get another chance, because that ship has sailed. But Torrey Smith could re-become an excellent #2 next to a great #1 receiver. Kerley has shown to be more than adequate, in my mind. We could add a receiver to displace him (in which case, I still think Kerley would be a more than adequate 4th receiver), but the receiving corp as a whole would only be marginally better. What we truly need is that #1 receiver. Someone who can demand double-teams. Someone who can make contested catches (and I disagree with Pando that Crabtree was never a #1, because there was a stretch in 2012 where Crabtree was nearly unstoppable, converting third downs on a regular basis). Someone who, by the attention he brings to himself, makes the job easier for the other guys on the team. Easier for the QB, because he knows he can make tough throws with a good chance of completing it (something I think hurt Kap and Blaine, in that they would often not throw the ball rather than risk an incompletion), and easier for the other receivers, because they would spend less time being covered by the opponent's best corner, because they would often not have to worry about the safety help to their side, if the #1 has cleared him up, and also because seeing a great receiver make great catches has an effect on the others, who might just lay out for the big catch more often. A great WR should come with great work ethic, and that also elevates the work of the other receivers, who know they have to work just as hard if they want to earn more targets from their QB.

think we have a few fine receivers, but they're just not slotted right. Torrey shouldn't be a #1, Kerley shouldn't be a #2, Patton shouldn't be on the team, etc. Bring in a true #1, and pieces fit into place a lot more. Same goes for other positions. Gerald Hodges shouldn't be a starter. But I'd gladly take him as a back-up. We don't need to replace Hodges's spot on the roster, we need to find someone to play alongside Bowman that will displace guys like RayRay and Hodges down to back-up roles, and displace Michael Wilhoite off the roster entirely. Once we stop trying to replace every player we don't like as starters, and simply focus on bringing in better players to just displace them down, we're beginning to see a semblance of depth. We could look at the roster and see 4-5 really good players and think the situation is dire, and we need 40 new players to even compete. Or we can just realize that we simply need some top-end talent at key positions: one QB, one WR, one C, one ILB, one pass rusher, and perhaps one safety. Add these 6 players, and we suddenly have a competitive team.


Torrey would have had to be an excellent #2 or a number 1 previously to re become one
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
Forge wrote:
Definitely not...just no...can't agree even slightly in the least.



I somewhat agree with Pando. I don't think Patton should get another chance, because that ship has sailed. But Torrey Smith could re-become an excellent #2 next to a great #1 receiver. Kerley has shown to be more than adequate, in my mind. We could add a receiver to displace him (in which case, I still think Kerley would be a more than adequate 4th receiver), but the receiving corp as a whole would only be marginally better. What we truly need is that #1 receiver. Someone who can demand double-teams. Someone who can make contested catches (and I disagree with Pando that Crabtree was never a #1, because there was a stretch in 2012 where Crabtree was nearly unstoppable, converting third downs on a regular basis). Someone who, by the attention he brings to himself, makes the job easier for the other guys on the team. Easier for the QB, because he knows he can make tough throws with a good chance of completing it (something I think hurt Kap and Blaine, in that they would often not throw the ball rather than risk an incompletion), and easier for the other receivers, because they would spend less time being covered by the opponent's best corner, because they would often not have to worry about the safety help to their side, if the #1 has cleared him up, and also because seeing a great receiver make great catches has an effect on the others, who might just lay out for the big catch more often. A great WR should come with great work ethic, and that also elevates the work of the other receivers, who know they have to work just as hard if they want to earn more targets from their QB.

think we have a few fine receivers, but they're just not slotted right. Torrey shouldn't be a #1, Kerley shouldn't be a #2, Patton shouldn't be on the team, etc. Bring in a true #1, and pieces fit into place a lot more. Same goes for other positions. Gerald Hodges shouldn't be a starter. But I'd gladly take him as a back-up. We don't need to replace Hodges's spot on the roster, we need to find someone to play alongside Bowman that will displace guys like RayRay and Hodges down to back-up roles, and displace Michael Wilhoite off the roster entirely. Once we stop trying to replace every player we don't like as starters, and simply focus on bringing in better players to just displace them down, we're beginning to see a semblance of depth. We could look at the roster and see 4-5 really good players and think the situation is dire, and we need 40 new players to even compete. Or we can just realize that we simply need some top-end talent at key positions: one QB, one WR, one C, one ILB, one pass rusher, and perhaps one safety. Add these 6 players, and we suddenly have a competitive team.


Torrey would have had to be an excellent #2 or a number 1 previously to re become one



I'm not saying he's the best all-around #2 receiver in the game. He's a bit of a specialist and complementary guy, but coupled with a true #1 receiver, he'd be perfect. 841, 855 and 1128 yards his first three years in the league. That's pretty good for a #2. He can be a big play guy. But we need a guy who can consistently make big plays, convert that big third down even when covered, draw attention from the defense.

If you don't like Torrey as a #2, how about a #3? Is he still trash as a number 3?If we could somehow sign Alshon Jeffery and draft a rookie, and we rounded the unit with Smith and Kerley/Smelter/Rogers/whoever, would the guys who were previously trash still be trash?I don't believe so. So I won't call them trash now just because we don't have good enough receivers to displace them down to their better role. Maybe Torrey isn't an excellent #2, but at worst he's a 2-3 tweener, and can be a pretty good one at that.
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Forge


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
Forge wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
Forge wrote:
Definitely not...just no...can't agree even slightly in the least.



I somewhat agree with Pando. I don't think Patton should get another chance, because that ship has sailed. But Torrey Smith could re-become an excellent #2 next to a great #1 receiver. Kerley has shown to be more than adequate, in my mind. We could add a receiver to displace him (in which case, I still think Kerley would be a more than adequate 4th receiver), but the receiving corp as a whole would only be marginally better. What we truly need is that #1 receiver. Someone who can demand double-teams. Someone who can make contested catches (and I disagree with Pando that Crabtree was never a #1, because there was a stretch in 2012 where Crabtree was nearly unstoppable, converting third downs on a regular basis). Someone who, by the attention he brings to himself, makes the job easier for the other guys on the team. Easier for the QB, because he knows he can make tough throws with a good chance of completing it (something I think hurt Kap and Blaine, in that they would often not throw the ball rather than risk an incompletion), and easier for the other receivers, because they would spend less time being covered by the opponent's best corner, because they would often not have to worry about the safety help to their side, if the #1 has cleared him up, and also because seeing a great receiver make great catches has an effect on the others, who might just lay out for the big catch more often. A great WR should come with great work ethic, and that also elevates the work of the other receivers, who know they have to work just as hard if they want to earn more targets from their QB.

think we have a few fine receivers, but they're just not slotted right. Torrey shouldn't be a #1, Kerley shouldn't be a #2, Patton shouldn't be on the team, etc. Bring in a true #1, and pieces fit into place a lot more. Same goes for other positions. Gerald Hodges shouldn't be a starter. But I'd gladly take him as a back-up. We don't need to replace Hodges's spot on the roster, we need to find someone to play alongside Bowman that will displace guys like RayRay and Hodges down to back-up roles, and displace Michael Wilhoite off the roster entirely. Once we stop trying to replace every player we don't like as starters, and simply focus on bringing in better players to just displace them down, we're beginning to see a semblance of depth. We could look at the roster and see 4-5 really good players and think the situation is dire, and we need 40 new players to even compete. Or we can just realize that we simply need some top-end talent at key positions: one QB, one WR, one C, one ILB, one pass rusher, and perhaps one safety. Add these 6 players, and we suddenly have a competitive team.


Torrey would have had to be an excellent #2 or a number 1 previously to re become one



I'm not saying he's the best all-around #2 receiver in the game. He's a bit of a specialist and complementary guy, but coupled with a true #1 receiver, he'd be perfect. 841, 855 and 1128 yards his first three years in the league. That's pretty good for a #2. He can be a big play guy. But we need a guy who can consistently make big plays, convert that big third down even when covered, draw attention from the defense.

If you don't like Torrey as a #2, how about a #3? Is he still trash as a number 3?If we could somehow sign Alshon Jeffery and draft a rookie, and we rounded the unit with Smith and Kerley/Smelter/Rogers/whoever, would the guys who were previously trash still be trash?I don't believe so. So I won't call them trash now just because we don't have good enough receivers to displace them down to their better role. Maybe Torrey isn't an excellent #2, but at worst he's a 2-3 tweener, and can be a pretty good one at that.


Our receiving corps as currently assembled is trash. Individually? Eh, they are what they are, and would depend on where you want to start the label, "trash" lol. I mean, i'd consider Smith around the top 75 receivers in the NFL. Out of a league that as 150+, he's about league average I would say, so hard to call that "trash" on an individual basis.

I agree with the bolded, and I actually had a post written up saying exactly this last night until I deleted just scratched it lol He's too much of a specialist for me to consider as a reliable number 2 (and maybe that's a difference too - maybe its more reliability than actual skill level). Yes, at best his highest ceiling I'd say he's a low two from what he's shown in the past, but in truth I think we are past that and not going to get that again. I think right now, he's more likely a high #3? I mean, is there a difference between say, he and Taylor Gabriel at this point? Is he the older version of Kenny Stills? If you were ranking wide receivers league wide I can't imagine Torrey Smith lands much higher in the ranks than wide receiver 75 maybe?

Kerley is just a guy. That's it. There's nothing really all that great about him, he's just not bad. For what he does, eh...he's okay. He's not a great slot receiver (and to call him one would mostly just show that a person is unaware of some of the receivers who spend the majority of their time as the slot receiver across the NFL)...he's...just a guy. That being said, I've said before I'm fine with re-signing him if they go that route.

Those two are by far our best and I'm not ranking either of them in the top 60 of wide receivers across the league more than likely. Now, some of that could be recency bias base, but it's not like it would be unusual for a receiver with Smith's skillset to burn out by age 28.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate this more nuanced analysis. I agree with a lot of that, if not everything. I just wasn't ready to call all our receivers trash, when simply adding one great receiver could make that group more than dependable already. Something being complete trash, to me, requires a major overhaul of all parts directly or indirectly associated with it. My diet is trash. I can't add one meal of nothing but vegetables a week and consider myself healthy. I have to rebuild the entire way I approach food, change it from top to bottom. I don't believe that is the case with our receivers. We just need to improve at the top. The Lions had the opposite problem for years, with Calvin Johnson being amazing, and the rest being totally unreliable (and wasn't Kerley part of that depth at one point? I don't remember, but I like him enough now as a 4th receiver to overlook it). They needed depth at the bottom. We simply (not so simply) need premium talent at the top.
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DTMW78


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's face it guys, as a group they ain't great.
But they are being asked to be more than they are capable of being.
Smith is not a #1 by any stretch but that is his current role, same with Kerley.
The fact that Balke couldn't spot a wr in a room full of em was the problem and letting Crabs walk was a huge mistake.
Put Smith opposite a decent #1 type wr and his production goes up.
Then slide Kerley in the slot and you have a decent looking group imo.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A complimentary or specialist type WR when it comes to a home run threat should never be anything more than your #3 WR. Mainly because if the down and distance doesn't suit their "specialty" or isn't a situation that would require in Smith's case, running an intermediate to deep route, he becomes fairly useless. We've all seen year after year now just what happens when you ask Torrey Smith to do anything other than run an intermediate to deep route, I'm actually fairly certain defenses just started ignoring him altogether unless the down and distance was right.

Kerley as Forge said is just a guy, supposedly a quick, explosive slot WR/play maker. On his career he averages under 10 yards a PR, right around 15 yards a KR, 1 return TD, about 10 yards per catch and averages 6 plays over 20 yards a season. Nothing about that is special, and factor in the fact he's 5'9 maybe 180 lbs and he's not much of a mismatch against a HS CB let alone and NFL CB. It's actually sad and laughable how bad our WRs have been for so long that we consider him to be above average or even average. There's a reason the Jets stopped using him after his third year, he became a roster bubble player and they added more to their WR corps. There is absolutely nothing special that you couldn't find in 75% of the WRs in the NFL today.

Streamer, Patton, Ellington, Rogers, Harper, Smelter...? Really, do we expect anything out of any of these guys? These are all players who spend their whole career fighting for a special teams position and you keep on the practice squad as long as you can. Maybe you keep one or two around cause they have something that intrigues you, but you don't rely on these guys, you don't ask one of them to actually produce or expect it. If ya do, you end up with the sorry mess that is our WR depth. The fact that we could pick up Kerley so late in the preseason and have him become our "best" WR immediately should tell you more than enough in what we already have on our team.
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Pandomonium


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DTMW78 wrote:
Let's face it guys, as a group they ain't great.
But they are being asked to be more than they are capable of being.
Smith is not a #1 by any stretch but that is his current role, same with Kerley.

The fact that Balke couldn't spot a wr in a room full of em was the problem and letting Crabs walk was a huge mistake.
Put Smith opposite a decent #1 type wr and his production goes up.
Then slide Kerley in the slot and you have a decent looking group imo.


this was all I was saying in my initial post Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fureys49ers wrote:
A complimentary or specialist type WR when it comes to a home run threat should never be anything more than your #3 WR. Mainly because if the down and distance doesn't suit their "specialty" or isn't a situation that would require in Smith's case, running an intermediate to deep route, he becomes fairly useless. We've all seen year after year now just what happens when you ask Torrey Smith to do anything other than run an intermediate to deep route, I'm actually fairly certain defenses just started ignoring him altogether unless the down and distance was right.

Kerley as Forge said is just a guy, supposedly a quick, explosive slot WR/play maker. On his career he averages under 10 yards a PR, right around 15 yards a KR, 1 return TD, about 10 yards per catch and averages 6 plays over 20 yards a season. Nothing about that is special, and factor in the fact he's 5'9 maybe 180 lbs and he's not much of a mismatch against a HS CB let alone and NFL CB. It's actually sad and laughable how bad our WRs have been for so long that we consider him to be above average or even average. There's a reason the Jets stopped using him after his third year, he became a roster bubble player and they added more to their WR corps. There is absolutely nothing special that you couldn't find in 75% of the WRs in the NFL today.

Streamer, Patton, Ellington, Rogers, Harper, Smelter...? Really, do we expect anything out of any of these guys? These are all players who spend their whole career fighting for a special teams position and you keep on the practice squad as long as you can. Maybe you keep one or two around cause they have something that intrigues you, but you don't rely on these guys, you don't ask one of them to actually produce or expect it. If ya do, you end up with the sorry mess that is our WR depth. The fact that we could pick up Kerley so late in the preseason and have him become our "best" WR immediately should tell you more than enough in what we already have on our team.


Actually, That's only partially true. we don't know what we have in smelter because he has been on IR the entirety of his NFL career. (he was baalke's last ACL redshirt draft pick) Rogers lit it up in the Canadian league and was slated to be a starter before he got hurt in training camp So as far as those two guys go we have NO CLUE what to expect if we are to think rationally.

I have no idea who "Streamer" is but Rod "Streeter" was actually a starter in Oakland and somewhat productive. He was allowed to walk after the drafting of Amari Cooper and the FA acquisition of Crabtree.

Now I Do understand may folks' disdain for Patton and Ellington in their past roles to an extent. However, I want to bring up a fact to make you scratch your collective heads....When during the time we have had an OC who ran an offense imaginative enough to utilize these guys' strengths??
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DTMW78


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smith and Kerley are the only ones I expect to see on the roster next year.
Rogers and Smelter may be kept but only because they haven't really been able to show what they are capable of.
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