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nextsuperstar


Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Posts: 1853
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raves wrote:
nextsuperstar wrote:
SWATcha wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
So... with the Butler deal looking ever more like a certainty, what are y'all predictions on compensation?

Personally I feel it's going to be at best the 42nd pick. No one else is offering a 1st rounder. Most Pats fans sound like a lot of Saints fans during the Cooks talk and simply assume there getting 32 back. That very well may be the case but I'd be shocked.

Saints got a very late 1 for a 23 year old offensive playmaker on a cheap 2 year deal.

Butler is 27 and will demand huge money upfront, the Pats also shipped a similar disgruntled player in Jamie Collins out for a comp 3rd. Maybe the Saints and Pats meet in the middle at 42 but I wouldn't be shocked if it's only 76.

I have a feeling that a lot of Pat fans are going be just as upset over compensation as the Saints fans were for what we got for Cooks... what say you?

My prediction...

Saints get Butler

Pats get pick 76 and LB Stephone Anthony who BB develops into a all-pro


It's either 42 or 76. I don't think 32 is in play. Could be wrong of course.

Ideally I'd like it to be 76. Gives the Saints 3 picks in the top 50, along with the signings they've made so far.


If the Patriots would settle for a second or third round pick, why didn't they place a second round tender on Butler?


Maybe because they wanted to use him as leverage in another trade if they could or just keep him? It's a lot better to say you traded:
#32
#103
Butler

For:
Cooks
#76
#118

Than Butler for #76 or even #42. Granted people will look at it as 2 separate deals probably but as some others have mentioned, this was likely already in the works and a long term deal might have just needed to be finalized to complete the full trade.


So your opinion is that there is a side agreement that Butler is part of the cooks trade? That I guess would have assumed that Cooks would not come to New England unless what Butler eventually got traded to NO? If that was the case, why did they make the Cooks trade already? Couldn't they have waited a week?
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Jlowe22


Joined: 27 Dec 2009
Posts: 2475
Location: South Mississippi
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nextsuperstar wrote:
Raves wrote:
nextsuperstar wrote:
SWATcha wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
So... with the Butler deal looking ever more like a certainty, what are y'all predictions on compensation?

Personally I feel it's going to be at best the 42nd pick. No one else is offering a 1st rounder. Most Pats fans sound like a lot of Saints fans during the Cooks talk and simply assume there getting 32 back. That very well may be the case but I'd be shocked.

Saints got a very late 1 for a 23 year old offensive playmaker on a cheap 2 year deal.

Butler is 27 and will demand huge money upfront, the Pats also shipped a similar disgruntled player in Jamie Collins out for a comp 3rd. Maybe the Saints and Pats meet in the middle at 42 but I wouldn't be shocked if it's only 76.

I have a feeling that a lot of Pat fans are going be just as upset over compensation as the Saints fans were for what we got for Cooks... what say you?

My prediction...

Saints get Butler

Pats get pick 76 and LB Stephone Anthony who BB develops into a all-pro


It's either 42 or 76. I don't think 32 is in play. Could be wrong of course.

Ideally I'd like it to be 76. Gives the Saints 3 picks in the top 50, along with the signings they've made so far.


If the Patriots would settle for a second or third round pick, why didn't they place a second round tender on Butler?


Maybe because they wanted to use him as leverage in another trade if they could or just keep him? It's a lot better to say you traded:
#32
#103
Butler

For:
Cooks
#76
#118

Than Butler for #76 or even #42. Granted people will look at it as 2 separate deals probably but as some others have mentioned, this was likely already in the works and a long term deal might have just needed to be finalized to complete the full trade.


So your opinion is that there is a side agreement that Butler is part of the cooks trade? That I guess would have assumed that Cooks would not come to New England unless what Butler eventually got traded to NO? If that was the case, why did they make the Cooks trade already? Couldn't they have waited a week?


I think personally that Butler [inappropriate/removed] up the original trade that Saints and Pats wanted to make, and they came up with an alternative that accounted for Butler being unpredictable. I'm talking out of my [inappropriate/removed] also though, and have no idea wtf is going on.
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Mid Iowa


Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Posts: 518
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Mid Iowa wrote:
Canadian Saint wrote:
Is it only me but after Thomas, I'm really luke warm on the other options available to help the pass rush at 11?

Barnett/Taco/Willis are in the next tier of pass rushers for me. If we're going to pick one, I'd rather it be later in the 1st than at 11.
I agree. Taco, while improving, is slow, and shows signs of laziness. Not a good combo. Perhaps he can snap out of it, but not an 11 in my opinion.

Go McCaffrey at 11, Taco at 32 if he's still there, which I'll bet he will be. Heck, maybe even 42.


6'6" 277 lbs with athleticism... that combination typically goes high. Sure it would be nice to land Taco later but realistically he's a top 20 prospect. His field drills were great and he plays with great leverage and motor for a man his size. Get off isn't elite but knows how to set up blockers and has an array of pass rush moves and violent hands. 10 sacks in last 10 games, Taco is an accending prospect that's gonna go a lot higher than people realize.

Top 15 in my book all day... could even be top 10 to either Carolina or Cincinnati.
I guess that's not what I see in him. Did you see how the whole Michigan team played this last year? Let's compare them to the Patriots. When the system is clicking, every player looks great. Pull one of those players from that system, put them elsewhere, and they play pretty well, but not super star like.

We could have the exact same conversation about Taco that we have about Butler. Is it system? Is he really worth the high draft pick? Will he perform once he gets in the Saints crappy system?

I think Taco is a risk in the 1st round, period, let alone 11.
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whodatworm23


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Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nextsuperstar wrote:
Raves wrote:
nextsuperstar wrote:
SWATcha wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
So... with the Butler deal looking ever more like a certainty, what are y'all predictions on compensation?

Personally I feel it's going to be at best the 42nd pick. No one else is offering a 1st rounder. Most Pats fans sound like a lot of Saints fans during the Cooks talk and simply assume there getting 32 back. That very well may be the case but I'd be shocked.

Saints got a very late 1 for a 23 year old offensive playmaker on a cheap 2 year deal.

Butler is 27 and will demand huge money upfront, the Pats also shipped a similar disgruntled player in Jamie Collins out for a comp 3rd. Maybe the Saints and Pats meet in the middle at 42 but I wouldn't be shocked if it's only 76.

I have a feeling that a lot of Pat fans are going be just as upset over compensation as the Saints fans were for what we got for Cooks... what say you?

My prediction...

Saints get Butler

Pats get pick 76 and LB Stephone Anthony who BB develops into a all-pro


It's either 42 or 76. I don't think 32 is in play. Could be wrong of course.

Ideally I'd like it to be 76. Gives the Saints 3 picks in the top 50, along with the signings they've made so far.


If the Patriots would settle for a second or third round pick, why didn't they place a second round tender on Butler?


Maybe because they wanted to use him as leverage in another trade if they could or just keep him? It's a lot better to say you traded:
#32
#103
Butler

For:
Cooks
#76
#118

Than Butler for #76 or even #42. Granted people will look at it as 2 separate deals probably but as some others have mentioned, this was likely already in the works and a long term deal might have just needed to be finalized to complete the full trade.


So your opinion is that there is a side agreement that Butler is part of the cooks trade? That I guess would have assumed that Cooks would not come to New England unless what Butler eventually got traded to NO? If that was the case, why did they make the Cooks trade already? Couldn't they have waited a week?


Butler had the tender on him... he had not signed it yet. Players with tenders that are unsigned cannot be traded.

Cooks was due a 800k roster bonus which forced the deal to be made sooner than expected, the Saints were dead set on not being on the hook for that bonus if they were to trade Cooks.

To me this does appear to be a prolonged plan to a Cooks for Butler swap... Bill Belicheck has a very reserved approach to dealing with players with the tender attached to them and the Saints have always been tight lipped with anything they do. The Pats and Saints have a lot of built up trust between the two front offices and staffs so I know there's no bickering going on between the two.

Honestly man, what I think you have here were two teams with respect for one another that had two disgruntled star players that fit needs on the other squads so a plan was hatched to swap players.

The Saints and Pats have faced off in joint practice for what... 4 years running? Both teams have seen the Cooks vs Butler showdown before, so both teams know what they are getting.

Yes... at the end of the day we will look back and say it was all part of the same trade if it goes down. The only thing I think that stops it is a breakdown in contract negotiations between the Saints and Butler, not compensation talks with the Pats.
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whodatworm23


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Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FLOODx wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Mid Iowa wrote:
Canadian Saint wrote:
Is it only me but after Thomas, I'm really luke warm on the other options available to help the pass rush at 11?

Barnett/Taco/Willis are in the next tier of pass rushers for me. If we're going to pick one, I'd rather it be later in the 1st than at 11.
I agree. Taco, while improving, is slow, and shows signs of laziness. Not a good combo. Perhaps he can snap out of it, but not an 11 in my opinion.

Go McCaffrey at 11, Taco at 32 if he's still there, which I'll bet he will be. Heck, maybe even 42.


6'6" 277 lbs with athleticism... that combination typically goes high. Sure it would be nice to land Taco later but realistically he's a top 20 prospect. His field drills were great and he plays with great leverage and motor for a man his size. Get off isn't elite but knows how to set up blockers and has an array of pass rush moves and violent hands. 10 sacks in last 10 games, Taco is an accending prospect that's gonna go a lot higher than people realize.

Top 15 in my book all day... could even be top 10 to either Carolina or Cincinnati.


I usually have a draft crush on a pass rusher every year. Taco has the size I covet in a DE, but when I watch him I don't see an array of pass rush moves. I see a spin move that works when he uses it at the right time, but I feel like sometimes he's spinning just to spin with no leverage and ends up spinning right into the tackle. I think he has all the potential in the world, but I'm not sure how good the new coaching staff's going to be at developing a raw prospect like Taco. Derek Barnett isn't as long as I'd like for the 4-3 DE spot, but he has heavy hands, plays with good leverage, and a non-stop motor. I think he'd be a much safer pick at 11.


The guy I actually think is an ideal fit for the Saints is UCLA's Takk Mckinnley but with his shoulder surgery I'm just not sure if the Saints would take another chance on a injured player. If it weren't for that injury he would be my choice at 11 that's how highly I think of him but the shoulder worries me.
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Jlowe22


Joined: 27 Dec 2009
Posts: 2475
Location: South Mississippi
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
nextsuperstar wrote:
Raves wrote:
nextsuperstar wrote:
SWATcha wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
So... with the Butler deal looking ever more like a certainty, what are y'all predictions on compensation?

Personally I feel it's going to be at best the 42nd pick. No one else is offering a 1st rounder. Most Pats fans sound like a lot of Saints fans during the Cooks talk and simply assume there getting 32 back. That very well may be the case but I'd be shocked.

Saints got a very late 1 for a 23 year old offensive playmaker on a cheap 2 year deal.

Butler is 27 and will demand huge money upfront, the Pats also shipped a similar disgruntled player in Jamie Collins out for a comp 3rd. Maybe the Saints and Pats meet in the middle at 42 but I wouldn't be shocked if it's only 76.

I have a feeling that a lot of Pat fans are going be just as upset over compensation as the Saints fans were for what we got for Cooks... what say you?

My prediction...

Saints get Butler

Pats get pick 76 and LB Stephone Anthony who BB develops into a all-pro


It's either 42 or 76. I don't think 32 is in play. Could be wrong of course.

Ideally I'd like it to be 76. Gives the Saints 3 picks in the top 50, along with the signings they've made so far.


If the Patriots would settle for a second or third round pick, why didn't they place a second round tender on Butler?


Maybe because they wanted to use him as leverage in another trade if they could or just keep him? It's a lot better to say you traded:
#32
#103
Butler

For:
Cooks
#76
#118

Than Butler for #76 or even #42. Granted people will look at it as 2 separate deals probably but as some others have mentioned, this was likely already in the works and a long term deal might have just needed to be finalized to complete the full trade.


So your opinion is that there is a side agreement that Butler is part of the cooks trade? That I guess would have assumed that Cooks would not come to New England unless what Butler eventually got traded to NO? If that was the case, why did they make the Cooks trade already? Couldn't they have waited a week?


Butler had the tender on him... he had not signed it yet. Players with tenders that are unsigned cannot be traded.

Cooks was due a 800k roster bonus which forced the deal to be made sooner than expected, the Saints were dead set on not being on the hook for that bonus if they were to trade Cooks.

To me this does appear to be a prolonged plan to a Cooks for Butler swap... Bill Belicheck has a very reserved approach to dealing with players with the tender attached to them and the Saints have always been tight lipped with anything they do. The Pats and Saints have a lot of built up trust between the two front offices and staffs so I know there's no bickering going on between the two.

Honestly man, what I think you have here were two teams with respect for one another that had two disgruntled star players that fit needs on the other squads so a plan was hatched to swap players.

The Saints and Pats have faced off in joint practice for what... 4 years running? Both teams have seen the Cooks vs Butler showdown before, so both teams know what they are getting.

Yes... at the end of the day we will look back and say it was all part of the same trade if it goes down. The only thing I think that stops it is a breakdown in contract negotiations between the Saints and Butler, not compensation talks with the Pats.


This is what I think, that because butler did not sign his tender, they hatched a deal that still gave cooks to the pats before the bonus, and the saints questionably adequate draft picks, in case butler did something else off the wall. Both sides knowing pats get 32 back(or something other than 11) if butler signs with Saints.

I find it hard to believe Butler wasn't in mind during the cooks trade, and that the saints are willing to part with 11.

Pats fans that think Belichick has to rape and swindle the league are being silly, it's in his best interest to maintain good relations and make mutually beneficial trades, especially with a team he doesn't compete with.
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FLOODx


Joined: 26 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
FLOODx wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Mid Iowa wrote:
Canadian Saint wrote:
Is it only me but after Thomas, I'm really luke warm on the other options available to help the pass rush at 11?

Barnett/Taco/Willis are in the next tier of pass rushers for me. If we're going to pick one, I'd rather it be later in the 1st than at 11.
I agree. Taco, while improving, is slow, and shows signs of laziness. Not a good combo. Perhaps he can snap out of it, but not an 11 in my opinion.

Go McCaffrey at 11, Taco at 32 if he's still there, which I'll bet he will be. Heck, maybe even 42.


6'6" 277 lbs with athleticism... that combination typically goes high. Sure it would be nice to land Taco later but realistically he's a top 20 prospect. His field drills were great and he plays with great leverage and motor for a man his size. Get off isn't elite but knows how to set up blockers and has an array of pass rush moves and violent hands. 10 sacks in last 10 games, Taco is an accending prospect that's gonna go a lot higher than people realize.

Top 15 in my book all day... could even be top 10 to either Carolina or Cincinnati.


I usually have a draft crush on a pass rusher every year. Taco has the size I covet in a DE, but when I watch him I don't see an array of pass rush moves. I see a spin move that works when he uses it at the right time, but I feel like sometimes he's spinning just to spin with no leverage and ends up spinning right into the tackle. I think he has all the potential in the world, but I'm not sure how good the new coaching staff's going to be at developing a raw prospect like Taco. Derek Barnett isn't as long as I'd like for the 4-3 DE spot, but he has heavy hands, plays with good leverage, and a non-stop motor. I think he'd be a much safer pick at 11.


The guy I actually think is an ideal fit for the Saints is UCLA's Takk Mckinnley but with his shoulder surgery I'm just not sure if the Saints would take another chance on a injured player. If it weren't for that injury he would be my choice at 11 that's how highly I think of him but the shoulder worries me.


I like Takk. He's a powerful dude with above average speed. Non stop motor and he plays mean. Like Taco though I don't think he has too many rush moves. I wouldn't mind him at 32. Just not sure about this new coaching staff developing pass rushers.
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navysaintsfan


Joined: 01 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://twitter.com/PardonMyTake/status/842450395251265537

Quote:
BREAKING: Sources are telling PMT that NE's Malcolm Butler will be traded to the Saints in exchange for the 32nd overall pick #MustCreditPMT


No one else reporting this, but I have been hearing rumblings from my "source" that the 32nd pick has been what was likely to be moved from the get go. I've been expecting the 32 to move the whole time. I'd be relatively OK with this I guess.
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navysaintsfan


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And for the record I have been VERY happy with this offseason so far. It's pleasant having cap space for making moves. No one sleep on AJ Klein. I think this kid is gonna be pretty solid in the middle.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

navysaintsfan wrote:
And for the record I have been VERY happy with this offseason so far. It's pleasant having cap space for making moves. No one sleep on AJ Klein. I think this kid is gonna be pretty solid in the middle.


I've been very pleased as well with this offseason thus far... however I have mixed feelings on a potential Butler deal.

On one hand I get it, I do feel Butler is a top 5-8 corner in the league regardless of scheme and I understand that 12-14 per is the market for those type of players but having to give up the 32nd pick as well??? Especially in this draft where there will be a slew of ver talented corners available at that selection is risky to say the least.

We all know why this trade will happen if it indeed does... we have a 38 year old QB that isn't getting any younger and a HC that's another 7-9 season from getting fired.

Acquiring Butler (in their minds) will speed up the process of overall improvement of the defense instead of having to wait on a rookies development or there I say, miss firing again on another late first rounder like they did with Anthony.

This deal does have the feeling of a little bit of desperation on our part to be honest and I can see and understand those who are for it and those who oppose it.
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domepatrol91


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that's true I don't know how any Saints fan could complain, that's totally fair compensation for Cooks. I love this offseason, solid moves all around.

It would also confirm what I believed earlier, that the Pats won't go into the draft without a 1st or 2nd. They traded their 2nd for Ealy knowing theyd be getting 32 right back.
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Spartica4Real


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Butler is already good and the #32 pick is not. I'll take that deal.
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domepatrol91


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought just crossed my mind, after all the bullshish with Galette and his woman beating ways I'm disgusted we are even looking at Mixon.
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ohiogenius


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whats the depth chart looking like post FA assuming the butler trade
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ohiogenius wrote:
Whats the depth chart looking like post FA assuming the butler trade


QB: Brees
RB: Ingram
FB: Kuhn
WR1: Thomas
WR2: Snead
WR3: Ginn
TE: Fleener
LT: Armstead
LG: Peat
C: Unger
RG: Warford
RT: Strief

DE: Okafor
UT: Fairley/Rankins
NT: Davidson
DE: Jordan
WLB: Robertson
MLB: Klein
SLB: Anthony
CB: Butler
NB: PJ Williams
FS: Bell
SS: Vacarro
CB: Breaux

That is my best guess right now. Only needs for the draft that I see:

1. DE
2. DB
3. SLB
4. OG
5. WR

And besides the DE position I wouldn't have any problem with our current starting 11 right now!
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