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Time To Transform The D, Right?
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{Family Ghost}


Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 2859
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wgbeethree wrote:
vegas492 wrote:
DocHambone wrote:
Do we believe that Clay is a plus edge defender at this point in his career? And do we believe he can still be a full time player?

It depends. In game one of this year, he was playing at an elite level. Really, really fast and strong. But the longer the season goes, the more he wears down.
So if you have to grade an entire year of him, no, not a plus defender.


FWIW, I remember it being a pretty big deal around here the PFF graded Clay as the worst player on defense in the first game of the year vs. Jacksonville


I guess we will just have to trust the coaches and personnel department to do a thorough job of grading Matthews. I could see it going either way, but I tend to think a hammy issue, and then a shoulder issue is enough to make a guy look pretty ordinary.


Last edited by {Family Ghost} on Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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vegas492


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wgbeethree wrote:
vegas492 wrote:
DocHambone wrote:
Do we believe that Clay is a plus edge defender at this point in his career? And do we believe he can still be a full time player?

It depends. In game one of this year, he was playing at an elite level. Really, really fast and strong. But the longer the season goes, the more he wears down.
So if you have to grade an entire year of him, no, not a plus defender.


FWIW, I remember it being a pretty big deal around here the PFF graded Clay as the worst player on defense in the first game of the year vs. Jacksonville

That would surprise me. In that game, Clay looked very quick, fast and strong. Maybe PFF didn't like his play, but he sure was moving at a different level than everyone else around him.

The problem I have with him is when he is nicked up, he becomes a shell of himself. Other guys can play, and play well, when nicked up. He just doesn't.
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wgbeethree


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vegas492 wrote:
wgbeethree wrote:
vegas492 wrote:
DocHambone wrote:
Do we believe that Clay is a plus edge defender at this point in his career? And do we believe he can still be a full time player?

It depends. In game one of this year, he was playing at an elite level. Really, really fast and strong. But the longer the season goes, the more he wears down.
So if you have to grade an entire year of him, no, not a plus defender.


FWIW, I remember it being a pretty big deal around here the PFF graded Clay as the worst player on defense in the first game of the year vs. Jacksonville

That would surprise me. In that game, Clay looked very quick, fast and strong. Maybe PFF didn't like his play, but he sure was moving at a different level than everyone else around him.

The problem I have with him is when he is nicked up, he becomes a shell of himself. Other guys can play, and play well, when nicked up. He just doesn't.


www.profootballfocus.com/pro-packers-jaguars-grades/

There's the link. LIS there was some debate of disagreement/agreement with the grade at the time and again FWIW, I did go through the post game thread and there were only two mentions of Clay's game being "plus" in it (one of them being yours) at the time.
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vegas492


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Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wgbeethree wrote:
vegas492 wrote:
wgbeethree wrote:
vegas492 wrote:
DocHambone wrote:
Do we believe that Clay is a plus edge defender at this point in his career? And do we believe he can still be a full time player?

It depends. In game one of this year, he was playing at an elite level. Really, really fast and strong. But the longer the season goes, the more he wears down.
So if you have to grade an entire year of him, no, not a plus defender.


FWIW, I remember it being a pretty big deal around here the PFF graded Clay as the worst player on defense in the first game of the year vs. Jacksonville

That would surprise me. In that game, Clay looked very quick, fast and strong. Maybe PFF didn't like his play, but he sure was moving at a different level than everyone else around him.

The problem I have with him is when he is nicked up, he becomes a shell of himself. Other guys can play, and play well, when nicked up. He just doesn't.


www.profootballfocus.com/pro-packers-jaguars-grades/

There's the link. LIS there was some debate of disagreement/agreement with the grade at the time and again FWIW, I did go through the post game thread and there were only two mentions of Clay's game being "plus" in it (one of them being yours) at the time.

Interesting write up, thanks for posting! I find it kind of ironic that they praised Randall.... Kind of goes to show that the kid could play well when he actually had two working legs... Smile
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TheOnlyThing


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After the loss in Atlanta, I started this thread by positing that "the time has come for a fundamental transformation of the defense SCHEME, COACHES, and PERSONNEL, right?"

Well just over 3 months later, I think we have our answer(s).

First, with regard to coaching, at his season ending press conference MM announced that Dom Capers is "an outstanding" football coach. MM followed that public declaration of support of Dom by retaining (as far as I know) every single member of his defensive coaching staff. Hence, the COACHES have not been transformed. Instead, the organization and especially head coach MM have made it clear that any past defensive shortcomings are not due to coaching.

The same cannot be said when it comes to PERSONNEL. In addition to the inevitable injury-related release of Shields, since the end of the season, the Packers have parted ways with Pennell, Peppers, D. Jones, and Hyde. Without rehashing the merits of these decisions (I personally was fine with all of them), it is worth noting that TT made little effort to resign 3 defensive players who all played significant roles on the 2016 D, including his former #1 pick Jones.

Subsequent to the blowout in Atlanta, TT also signed 2 veteran defensive free agents -- RJF and House. The fact he has also surprisingly signed 3 veterans on the offensive side of the ball should not overshadow the fact that the RJF & House signings potentially represent a departure from the approach of the previous 6 seasons in which a total of 2 veteran defensive free agents (Peppers & Guion) were brought in. There is always a chance that TT might even add another veteran to the mix.

Even more tellingly, during the just completed draft TT used his first 4 picks on defense. No other team except Baltimore used their top 4 picks on D, and the Ravens "draft was dictated by the way the[ir] depleted defense was torched during the final month of last season." Ravens http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/schmuck-blog/bs-sp-peter-schmuck-column-0430-20170429-story.html

Consequently, the defensive personnel has, unsurprisingly, already been at least somewhat transformed since the 2016 season ended.

The third potential basis for transformation, SCHEME, remains unresolved. Certainly, there is not going to be any fundamental transformation to the 4-3. However, MM made comments yesterday about getting more DBs on the field and the need for more players to play more than 1 role on the D. We shall see what comes of these comments.

In the (not yet) final analysis, is there sufficient evidence to believe the Packers D will be (1) improved and (2) improved enough to be Super Bowl worthy in 2017? I think the answer, at this point, is yes and no.

Taking a look at the various position groups, the Safety position in GB has had better overall talent when exactly? Ever? Burnett & HHCD are in their respective primes (with Burnett perhaps plateauing or declining and HHCD still hopefully ascending). Brice showed he could at least hit someone. And Josh Jones is a very promising prospect whose addition might allow Burnett even greater positional flexibility. No reason not to be optimistic about this group.

I also think the Defensive Line could also be very good this season. Daniels is Daniels. There is every reason to believe Clark can take a step and be very good and good now. Lowry flashed a bit as a rookie and can hopefully make the vaunted 2nd year leap. I don't count on Adams doing much in 2017, but RJF is at least a solid veteran and Guion and Price are still around for depth purposes while Ringo has experience in the system. On paper, this looks to be a solid if unspectacular group.

So much for the good news.

The Inside Linebacker position continues to get no respect in Green Bay despite the fact we play a 3-4 base. There has been a chronic shortage of talent at the position. There are multiple 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks at OLB, DLine, CB, and Safety, while we have two 4th rounders and a couple of UDFAs at ILBer. Thus, it should not be a surprise that the position lacks talent.

Does anyone truly have confidence in Ryan or Martinez in coverage? (I confess I had high hopes for Blake heading into last season, but he was so obviously overmatched in 2016 that I won't make that mistake again). Does anyone have confidence Thomas can hold up against the run? Can anyone think of a worse trio of ILB blitzers in the NFL? Who or what exactly are Jordan Tripp and Derrick Matthews -- our projected "depth" if one of the top 3 get hurt?

I cannot fathom why the Pack continues to be OK with trotting out such pedestrian players at ILBer and the most optimistic spin I can put on this group is that Ryan is a willing and able run defender (heck, I think he's better than AJ Hawk), Thomas is decent defending the pass, and Martinez might be better in year two. But collectively this again project to be a below average group, which might be OK if it was the only weak link on the D but it isn't. The only realistic hope IMO for acceptable play at the position in 2017 is schematic changes that get these guys off the field more often than in 2016.

Cornerback oh Cornerback, he position that caused so much angst in 2016. How does it look for 2017? It has got to be better, right.

This group was undeniably battered by injury in 2016. Losing the team's expected #1 CB opening week would have been brutal enough but then Randall and Rollins and even some of the backups to the backups got hurt. I don't see how anyone thinks the group won't be better just because it can't possibly be as injured as it was last year.

In addition, we have two welcome additions to the group in House and King. They project to be, at worst, our 3-4 CBs and should both see significant playing time in 2017.

With the likely improved health and welcome additions to the CB group in mind, let's take a look at what we actually have at the most important defensive grouping on our D (along with OLBer).

I surmise that House and Randall will be the boundary corners to open the season. Now, I like House and always have, but you know who apparently has not always thought that highly of him? The Green Bay Packers. (I can envision the teeth gnashing going on over this assertion LOL).

At the end of the 2014 season, House was 26 years old. He had been with GB for 4 years. Tramon Williams, who had been a starter, was informed he was not coming back in 2015. The Pack had Sam Shields as the projected #1 starter and Hayward who had played only in the slot. Nonetheless, GB let House walk.

Ask yourself this question, if the Packers truly believed Davon House was a starting caliber boundary CB in 2015 -- after watching him up close for 4 years, do you think they allow him to go to Jax (for a hardly break the bank contract) in his prime?

Now, two years later, after being cut by Jax, the 28-year old House was free to sign with any team in a CB needy league and all he received was a modest 1 year deal (from the CB neediest team in the NFL).

That is pretty tangible evidence that the NFL generally and the Packers specifically (at least in the recent past) have not exactly had great expectations of or for Davon House. I do not bring up the facts of House's release and resigning to damn House, because I think he might be a decent #2 CB, but rather to note the reality of the "talent" at CB on this team.

That brings me to our other projected CB starter Randall. Initially, I wholeheartedly agree that (i) Randall played pretty darn well as a rookie in 2015 and (ii) his injuries greatly (and adversely) affected his play in 2016. The thought that Randall can return to his promising 2015 (rookie) play after a sophomore season lost to injury -- the way Davante Adams did last season, certainly seems plausible to me. But what exactly does that mean?

In 2015, Sam Shields was unquestionably GB's #1 CB and for much of the season Hayward was the other boundary corner. For those optimistic that Randall can return to 2015 form, does that mean you believe he will be able to matchup against a Julio Jones or Dez Bryant? Personally, I have serious doubts. A jack-of-all trades DB in college, Randall was still "growing" into the CB position in 2016 (see his pre-injury game 2 performance against Diggs) before the injuries struck. Thus, while I see Randall being much better in 2017 than his injury-plagued 2016 season, I also don't think he will be a top 1/2 NFL starting CB this season.

As for CBs 3-5, let's start with the good news. Kevin King. Thank you, thank you, thank you, TT for acknowledging how dire the CB situation is/was and using the first pick on King. I see no reason not to be optimistic about him and while his learning curve will be steep at least he has the physical ability to compete. I'll also sound an optimistic note that perhaps Waters or Hawkins can add something given that they have been around the system for awhile now.

With respect to Gunter & Rollins, I don't see much. Ladarius certainly gives it his all but he lacks the necessary speed to do anything other than play on a slow track against a slow receiver. There is no way he should ever be put in position where he is asked to do anything else. Rollins is a different story.

I don't think Rollins was nearly as good as Randall in 2015 nor nearly as hurt as Randall was in 2016. He is also not as fast as Randall. His technique looks like he played a lot of basketball in college. He looked shattered in 2016. In short, I don't think Rollins is much of a player. I will be gladly take the blowback if Rollins proves me wrong, but I expect very little from him in 2017.

So, to summarize, among our top 5 projected CBs we have (i) 4 who had terrible seasons (for various reasons) in 2016, (ii) 2 who are new to the team (though House was here previously), (iii) no true projected #1, and (iv) significant uncertainty as to who will be playing and where. Hence, while I believe the CBs will be better in 2017, this still projects to be a below average group.

The other undeniably critical defensive position on this team is Outside Linebacker. Clay and Perry, the starters, are two highly paid former first round picks who both have highly productive seasons on their playing resumes. Indeed, Perry's best season in his 5-year career was last season. With double-digit sacks to go along with his solid run D, Nick earned the big contract TT negotiated with him. He is a good OLBer and is in his prime.

Clay, on the other hand, is about to turn 31. He returned to OLB last season after 1.5 where he played primarily in the middle. He's only had 1 double digit season of sacks in the past 4 (and just 6.5 and 5 the past two seasons). Now, MM is making noises about moving Clay "all around" again. http://packerswire.usatoday.com/2017/03/29/mike-mccarthy-wants-to-keep-moving-clay-matthews-around-the-field/

There is every reason to believe Clay Matthews' best seasons as a pass rushing outside linebacker are behind him.

Behind Perry and Clay, are the threesome of Fackrell, Elliott, and Biegel. Taking Biegel first, I like him and I like his selection in the 4th round. However, I do not foresee him have much of any impact, as a rookie, at OLB. That leaves the other two.

I like Elliott and have always wondered why he did not get more of an opportunity, which it certainly appears he will this season. However, just last month the Packers basically told him he was free to go elsewhere when they shockingly (to me given the lack of depth at OLB) chose not to even extend him the "low" RFA tender offer. http://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2017/3/9/14871226/packers-jayrone-elliott-will-not-offer-rfa-tender

If the Pack was willing to let Jayrone go over a couple 100K or whatever they eventually saved, how can one possibly be confident that this is a guy to rely upon in 2017?

That leaves Fackrell. As a rookie behind Clay, Perry, Peppers, and D. Jones, Fackrell did not get much playing time. Many are skeptical that this 2nd year player (who will turn 26 during the season) has the ability to play, but even for the optimists the truth is we have no idea. Yet, at this point, Fackrell is the projected #3 OLBer and I guess replacement at the position when Clay gets moved around.

Now, no discussion of OLB would be complete without remarking about the injury history of our 2 starters. Even in his best season last year, Perry missed multiple games. He has never played all 16 games and though he has missed only 5 games over the past 3 seasons, he has missed a full 1/4 of the games over his career (20 of 80). Moreover, he has also played in games with casts and while nursing other significant injuries.

Meanwhile, Clay's long history of injury has been well documented and it would be illogical to think that history would improve as he gets older.

Thus, we are staring at the very real chance that completely untested Kyler Fackrell and/or Jayrone Elliott will staring at OLB this season. Is anyone really OK with this reality?

It must also be remembered that in 2016, OLB was a very deep position with D. Jones and Peppers getting significant snaps (taking pressure of Clay & Nick and keeping them fresh). How is the position possibly not significantly weaker with Peppers (7.5 sacks, 2 FFs) and D. Jones (team leader in pressures) being replaced by a 4th round rookie, a UDFA whom the Pack was willing to let walk for peanuts, and the great unknown that is Kyler Fackrell? Does anyone else think Kyler f'ing Fackrell may be key to the Pack's D markedly improving next season?

To summarize, AS OF NOW, I certainly think the Pack's D will be better in 2017 principally because they cannot possibly be as bad at CB as they were last year. I also think they are good at Safety and along the DLine. However, with a below average group of ILBers & CBs and a paper thin OLB corps, I do not see the D as being Super Bowl caliber.
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Cadmus


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheOnlyThing wrote:


Cornerback oh Cornerback, he position that caused so much angst in 2016. How does it look for 2017? It has got to be better, right.

This group was undeniably battered by injury in 2016. Losing the team's expected #1 CB opening week would have been brutal enough but then Randall and Rollins and even some of the backups to the backups got hurt. I don't see how anyone thinks the group won't be better just because it can't possibly be as injured as it was last year.

In addition, we have two welcome additions to the group in House and King. They project to be, at worst, our 3-4 CBs and should both see significant playing time in 2017.

With the likely improved health and welcome additions to the CB group in mind, let's take a look at what we actually have at the most important defensive grouping on our D (along with OLBer).

I surmise that House and Randall will be the boundary corners to open the season. Now, I like House and always have, but you know who apparently has not always thought that highly of him? The Green Bay Packers. (I can envision the teeth gnashing going on over this assertion LOL).

At the end of the 2014 season, House was 26 years old. He had been with GB for 4 years. Tramon Williams, who had been a starter, was informed he was not coming back in 2015. The Pack had Sam Shields as the projected #1 starter and Hayward who had played only in the slot. Nonetheless, GB let House walk.

Ask yourself this question, if the Packers truly believed Davon House was a starting caliber boundary CB in 2015 -- after watching him up close for 4 years, do you think they allow him to go to Jax (for a hardly break the bank contract) in his prime?


Now, two years later, after being cut by Jax, the 28-year old House was free to sign with any team in a CB needy league and all he received was a modest 1 year deal (from the CB neediest team in the NFL).

That is pretty tangible evidence that the NFL generally and the Packers specifically (at least in the recent past) have not exactly had great expectations of or for Davon House. I do not bring up the facts of House's release and resigning to damn House, because I think he might be a decent #2 CB, but rather to note the reality of the "talent" at CB on this team.


What the hell are you babbling about? Do you live in some type of alternate reality?

The contract Davon House received from the Jaguars made him a Top 20 CB in terms of AAV.

Do people forget that when the Packers re-signed Shields to a 4 Year, 39 Million contract it made him the second highest paid CB in the NFL behind only Darelle Revis?

Today, Shields would be the 15th highest paid CB in the NFL.


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Arodsmightybelt


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We stocked up well enough that the excuses on defense are officially over. We frontloaded defense hard in this draft. Its Dom put up or shut up time. All the pressure is on him to make this defense click. I really hope he can.

the edge depth is no doubt paper thin.......agree with that. And I share the pessimism at ILB, and my feelings are already well known on Randall and Rollins, but picking up King and House will help alleviate that. We filled in enough holes to where the excuses are gone.

Cautiously optimistic going into the season with defense. I dont want to see 3rd and 10 be a foregone conclusion at first down anymore. No other fanbase has that kind of PTSD on 3rd and long that the packers have.
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CentralFC


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

should def post that on Bleacher Report ToT
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NormSizedMidget


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree with some of that but its still better than 95% of what the "pros" push out these days
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{Family Ghost}


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, what's the game plan for the Packers in regards to the inside linebacking position .. seems like they are phasing out the prototypical inside linebacker in place of bigger DB's who are highly athletic. McCarthy mentioned yesterday that he wanted to get more DBs on the field. Sounds like Matthews will spend some time at ILB as well. Does that leave much if a role for Ryan, Martinez, and Joe Thomas? Are we going to be playing mostly Dime defense with 6 db's from here on out?


@ByRyanWood 24m24 minutes ago
Don't forget Clay Matthews, Morgan Burnett, even Josh Jones. Everything you know about ILB position is about to change.

Thorny @AyeAmThorny
Who is playing ILB for us? Ryan, Thomas and Martinez? It's been over a decade since we used a high pick at ILB.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually read your entire post TOT, and I still think you're completely off base.

You're not going to have All Pro's at every position. And in this day and age of the salary cap, you're going to have to pick and choose where you're spending money. Given that our defense is predicated off of pressure and creating turnovers, neither of which likely comes from our ILB spots, it seems unwise to use premium assets on a position that isn't a difference maker or spend significant money on those positions. We need guys who are going to fill their roles, and be assignment-responsible. Look at it from this perspective, right now our ILBs (Jake Ryan, Blake Martinez, and Joe Thomas) have a combined cap hold of a little less than $2M. There are 18 players with bigger cap holds then our entire ILB corps combined. If you're saving money there, you can spend it elsewhere. And this wasn't a very strong draft for ILB, especially once Jarrad Davis went off the board and Reuben Foster's medicals were as bad as some think they are.

As for CB, I think we're in a much, much better situation than we were last year because quite frankly I don't think we can be as injured as we were last year. Losing arguably a top-15 corner in Sam Shields during the first game, and the myriad of lower body injuries hampers the defense. Just by virtue of health, we're going to be better off. I mean, you really don't believe injuries weren't a HUGE reason for the drop off in pass defense?
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DocHambone


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone else pretty much done with the ILB position and think it will mostly be manned by a mix of Jones, Burnett, Clay and Biegel? Those 4 give you great versatility with Pass rush AND coverage from the position.
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PackyAttacky


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
I actually read your entire post TOT, and I still think you're completely off base.

You're not going to have All Pro's at every position. And in this day and age of the salary cap, you're going to have to pick and choose where you're spending money. Given that our defense is predicated off of pressure and creating turnovers, neither of which likely comes from our ILB spots, it seems unwise to use premium assets on a position that isn't a difference maker or spend significant money on those positions. We need guys who are going to fill their roles, and be assignment-responsible. Look at it from this perspective, right now our ILBs (Jake Ryan, Blake Martinez, and Joe Thomas) have a combined cap hold of a little less than $2M. There are 18 players with bigger cap holds then our entire ILB corps combined. If you're saving money there, you can spend it elsewhere. And this wasn't a very strong draft for ILB, especially once Jarrad Davis went off the board and Reuben Foster's medicals were as bad as some think they are.

As for CB, I think we're in a much, much better situation than we were last year because quite frankly I don't think we can be as injured as we were last year. Losing arguably a top-15 corner in Sam Shields during the first game, and the myriad of lower body injuries hampers the defense. Just by virtue of health, we're going to be better off. I mean, you really don't believe injuries weren't a HUGE reason for the drop off in pass defense?


You need to go on every other Packers message board and post that. PLEASE!!

And if anybody thinks injuries weren't a huge part of the drop off last year then I don't know what to tell you.
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TheOnlyThing


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
I actually read your entire post TOT, and I still think you're completely off base.

You're not going to have All Pro's at every position.
And in this day and age of the salary cap, you're going to have to pick and choose where you're spending money. Given that our defense is predicated off of pressure and creating turnovers, neither of which likely comes from our ILB spots, it seems unwise to use premium assets on a position that isn't a difference maker or spend significant money on those positions. We need guys who are going to fill their roles, and be assignment-responsible. Look at it from this perspective, right now our ILBs (Jake Ryan, Blake Martinez, and Joe Thomas) have a combined cap hold of a little less than $2M. There are 18 players with bigger cap holds then our entire ILB corps combined. If you're saving money there, you can spend it elsewhere. And this wasn't a very strong draft for ILB, especially once Jarrad Davis went off the board and Reuben Foster's medicals were as bad as some think they are.

As for CB, I think we're in a much, much better situation than we were last year because quite frankly I don't think we can be as injured as we were last year. Losing arguably a top-15 corner in Sam Shields during the first game, and the myriad of lower body injuries hampers the defense. Just by virtue of health, we're going to be better off. I mean, you really don't believe injuries weren't a HUGE reason for the drop off in pass defense?


Firstly, no one is contending All-Pros are needed at every position. That is a lazy assertion to deflect from the arguments being made.

Secondly, I clearly wrote in my earlier post that, regarding the ILB position, "collectively this again projects to be a below average group, which might be OK if it was the only weak link on the D but it isn't."

Third, the problems with the argument that the Pack will be just fine on D in 2017 because they are saving $ at ILBer and thus are able to pour more resources into premium positions like OLB & CB are that (1) while GB is heavily invested at OLB it is highly unlikely to reap a commensurate reward from that investment (especially from Clay), and (2) GB is NOT heavily invested (at least not financially) at CB and the group remains, on paper, underwhelming.

Finally, you state you read my post but then accuse me of ignoring the impact of injuries on the CB position last season. So I've got to ask, did you skip over the first paragraph of what I wrote about the CB position or choose to ignore it to fit a narrative? Here is what I actually wrote:

"This group was undeniably battered by injury in 2016. Losing the team's expected #1 CB opening week would have been brutal enough but then Randall and Rollins and even some of the backups to the backups got hurt. I don't see how anyone thinks the group won't be better just because it can't possibly be as injured as it was last year."

I stand by my belief that, even with what well maybe an even more lethal offense in 2017, as presently constructed, the overall defensive personnel is not Super Bowl caliber. You obviously believe otherwise.
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PackyAttacky


Joined: 12 Mar 2017
Posts: 183
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake Ryan is worst an average ILB and by most accounts a good ILB. Like it or not IMO he is here to stay for at least ten years in a Packers uniform.
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