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Redskins Promote Greg Manusky to DC
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HTTRG3Dynasty


Joined: 03 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Can anyone explain why the Colts went from 11th and 10th in weighted defensive DVOA in 2014 and 2015, respectively, with Manusky, to 26th in 2016 without him?


Anyone have an answer for this?
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JaguarCrazy2832


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not really sure why but we'll see how it works
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HTTRG3Dynasty


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:

After he left, the 49ers spent the next three seasons as a top 3 NFL defense under Vic Fangio.


I think adding Aldon Smith (plus some key FA pick-ups) and Bowman being in his 2nd year in 2011 probably helped with this Laughing.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
jrry32 wrote:

After he left, the 49ers spent the next three seasons as a top 3 NFL defense under Vic Fangio.


I think adding Bowman and Aldon Smith (plus some key FA pick-ups) in 2011 probably helped with this Laughing.


Bowman was on the 2010 49ers.

I'm sure Aldon helped, but let's not pretend that the 2010 49ers defense didn't have a ton of talent. There's a reason why 49ers and Chargers fans tore Manusky apart. You guys are welcome to ignore that, but I think this is a pretty disappointing hire.
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HTTRG3Dynasty


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
jrry32 wrote:

After he left, the 49ers spent the next three seasons as a top 3 NFL defense under Vic Fangio.


I think adding Bowman and Aldon Smith (plus some key FA pick-ups) in 2011 probably helped with this Laughing.


Bowman was on the 2010 49ers.

I'm sure Aldon helped, but let's not pretend that the 2010 49ers defense didn't have a ton of talent. There's a reason why 49ers and Chargers fans tore Manusky apart. You guys are welcome to ignore that, but I think this is a pretty disappointing hire.


I already edited my post to Bowman's 2nd year. He had 46 tackles in 2010 and 143 tackles in 2011. They had Takeo Spikes and Patrick Willis starting in 2010. Spikes had 109 tackles, 3 INTs, and 9 passes defensed that year, so I'm not sure I can blame Manusky for starting him over the rookie. They were 13th in weighted DVOA the year he left. It's not like he was terrible.

And yes, I'm sure Aldon's 14 sacks in 2011 definitely helped. So did Carlos Rogers and Donte Whitner.

The guy has had pretty poor talent on his rosters in the places he's been. He was only with the Chargers for one season, so I don't really put a lot of stock in his performance there. But he did have the Colts defense outperforming their talent level in 2014 and 2015. Then they fell off a cliff this year.

I'm not ecstatic about the hire, but the only other guy I really wanted, that was available, was Pettine, so I'm happy they hired my second choice at least.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
jrry32 wrote:

After he left, the 49ers spent the next three seasons as a top 3 NFL defense under Vic Fangio.


I think adding Bowman and Aldon Smith (plus some key FA pick-ups) in 2011 probably helped with this Laughing.


Bowman was on the 2010 49ers.

I'm sure Aldon helped, but let's not pretend that the 2010 49ers defense didn't have a ton of talent. There's a reason why 49ers and Chargers fans tore Manusky apart. You guys are welcome to ignore that, but I think this is a pretty disappointing hire.


I already edited my post to Bowman's 2nd year. He had 46 tackles in 2010 and 143 tackles in 2011. They had Takeo Spikes and Patrick Willis starting in 2010. Spikes had 109 tackles, 3 INTs, and 9 passes defensed that year, so I'm not sure I can blame Manusky for starting him over the rookie.

Yes, I'm sure Aldon's 14 sacks definitely helped. So did Carlos Rogers and Donte Whitner.

The guy has had pretty poor talent on his rosters in the places he's been. He was only with the Chargers for one season, so I don't really put a lot of stock in his performance there. But he did have the Colts defense outperforming their talent level in 2014 and 2015. Then they fell off a cliff this year.

I'm not ecstatic about the hire, but the only other guy I really wanted, that was available, was Pettine, so I'm happy they hired my second choice at least.


Why did San Francisco under Vic Fangio and San Diego under John Pagano immediately significantly improve after Manusky left?

You can blame changes to the roster. There will always be changes to the roster from year to year. Simply put, it's hard to buy the talent excuse when better DCs came in and significantly improved the unit.

The only team you can point to as getting worse is Indy. And that's using DVOA. Using traditional metrics, they performed worse but there wasn't a huge drop-off. Which I could easily chalk up to injuries and attribution like you did the changes in SF (if I chose to do that).

I know I'm not going to change your mind on Manusky. I'll just wish you the best of luck and move on.

P.S. I agree that Pettine was the best choice. Not sure why you guys passed on him.
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HTTRG3Dynasty


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Fangio is definitely a better DC than Manusky. Not sure about Pagano. But I was just pointing out that adding an all-pro level talent like Aldon Smith, and a few other good players in FA, can dramatically improve a defense. How good do you think the Rams defense would be without Donald (not saying Smith and Donald are equal in talent)? I think it's likely Manusky could have fielded a top 7 defense, if not top 5, with that additional talent added to his roster.

Another overlooked fact: that offense all of a sudden became competent with the addition of Harbaugh as HC. That definitely helps a defense out. See: 2016 Cowboys.
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J-ALL-DAY


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manusky is okay but Fangio was amazing getting good CB play from average players. But not question Fangio had more to work with.

Anyways I see you guys also got Tomsula as the DL coach. Damn good get.
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HTTRG3Dynasty


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J-ALL-DAY wrote:
Manusky is okay but Fangio was amazing getting good CB play from average players. But not question Fangio had more to work with.

Anyways I see you guys also got Tomsula as the DL coach. Damn good get.


Yup, was just about to post that.

This makes me so happy.

Carol Maloney ‏@carolmaloney4
Quote:
#Redskins have hired Jim Tomsula as Dline coach. He worked with Manusky and McCloughan in San Fran as their Dline coach from '07-14
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Brian23


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only good aspect to this hire is Tomsula and that's debatable. Manusky is a perfect hire with whats wrong with the current Redskins FO. We've been draggin' along this staff essentially since the Shanahan years. Need to really clean house at some point, I'd expect it to be after this year.

This was really just tellin' that no potential DC's thought Gruden would be around longterm.
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BigJohnson


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian23 wrote:
The only good aspect to this hire is Tomsula and that's debatable. Manusky is a perfect hire with whats wrong with the current Redskins FO. We've been draggin' along this staff essentially since the Shanahan years. Need to really clean house at some point, I'd expect it to be after this year.

This was really just tellin' that no potential DC's thought Gruden would be around longterm.


What coaches are still here that coached under shanny?
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
J-ALL-DAY wrote:
Manusky is okay but Fangio was amazing getting good CB play from average players. But not question Fangio had more to work with.

Anyways I see you guys also got Tomsula as the DL coach. Damn good get.


Yup, was just about to post that.

This makes me so happy.

Carol Maloney ‏@carolmaloney4
Quote:
#Redskins have hired Jim Tomsula as Dline coach. He worked with Manusky and McCloughan in San Fran as their Dline coach from '07-14


That's a great hire.
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Forge


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manusky is....meh. Bland, as someone else said. At best, he's average, probably slightly below in my estimation. I was never super impressed with him on the 49ers. Again he wasn't bad...but you'll think that you can do better in the end.

Tomsula as d-line coach though is a huge win. People absolutely love playing for him, and he is very good at growing young players on the line. During his tenure, we had some guys develop into very good players and solid rotational guys that really had no business being so.
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Brian23


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigJohnson wrote:
Brian23 wrote:
The only good aspect to this hire is Tomsula and that's debatable. Manusky is a perfect hire with whats wrong with the current Redskins FO. We've been draggin' along this staff essentially since the Shanahan years. Need to really clean house at some point, I'd expect it to be after this year.

This was really just tellin' that no potential DC's thought Gruden would be around longterm.


What coaches are still here that coached under shanny?


Its the progression. When Gruden came on, we held onto the entire defensive staff and a good chunk of the offense. That progressed as people left, but the people before them who were chosen by the Shanny staff continued to hang around. Like Mike chose Kyle, Kyle chose McVay, who got promoted under Gruden, Who brought in Cavanaugh, who is now the OC. On defense it went like Haz kept his team, Joe kept a lot of his personnel, who were kept around/replaced by Joe, and who's now going to get picked up by Manusky.

Its not the same people, but the descendants are still there and its just hung over us for almost a decade. Always some bad connection, nepotism at its best, instead of trying to actually pick the best staff possible.
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The LBC


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
I think Fangio is definitely a better DC than Manusky. Not sure about Pagano. But I was just pointing out that adding an all-pro level talent like Aldon Smith, and a few other good players in FA, can dramatically improve a defense. How good do you think the Rams defense would be without Donald (not saying Smith and Donald are equal in talent)? I think it's likely Manusky could have fielded a top 7 defense, if not top 5, with that additional talent added to his roster.

Another overlooked fact: that offense all of a sudden became competent with the addition of Harbaugh as HC. That definitely helps a defense out. See: 2016 Cowboys.

Speaking in terms of play-calling as someone who actually watched them... yes, Pagano is a rather average, often-underwhelming DC... and he's a better play-caller than Manusky.

Manusky's coverages were (not just in San Diego, you can go back and look at the thread of when San Diego hired him and Niners fans were telling them to prepare for this exact thing) rife with huge cushions whether that fit the personnel or not. It was a rarity to see him send more than a 4-man rush; we legitimately celebrated when he'd actually blitz someone. Safety blitzes especially went out the window.

I'd have to see the numbers to be absolutely sure, but I'd suspect one of the reasons why he has favorable DVOA numbers on his side from his time in Indy was the total number of defensive snaps (Manusky's defenses tend to spend A LOT of time on the field and have trouble getting off it) diluting the average.
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