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Browns Resign LB Jamie Collins, (4 years / $50 million)
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Broncofan


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
Broncofan wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
sdrawkcab321 wrote:
Quote:
The contract extension for #Browns LB Jamie Collins: 4 years, $50M, source said. $26M in guarantees. Large.


Far stretch from "Von Miller money" that was being reported though.


But it is a new bar for ILB's, just over Kuechly. That's quite an overpay in a vacuum for a guy I don't think is even a top 10 at the ILB position.

But, I get why CLE had to do it - only way to retain guys there.


Lukes contract was signed 18 months earlier and has more GTD money on a per year basis..


If you want to argue guaranteed $, then use the timeframe over which the guaranteed $ is spread out - both are spread out over 2 years salary plus the bonus. It's a weak argument to use GTD money over the life of the contract, since those years can just be voided without penalty - it's the years that are guaranteed that matters if you are going to compare guaranteed $. If Collins is spread out over 3 years salary, then the argument holds, but if all the guaranteed $ (besides the signing bonus) is all in Year 1-2, it's the same timeframe.

But fair enough on the 18-month earlier signing time for Kuechly, the cap's certainly gone way up since then, so the relative value is certainly less now for the same $ 2 signing periods ago. It's just a sign that a new bar is about to get set for top salaries. Again, I'm not sure Collins is a top 10 ILB, so even with the context, the $ is hard to swallow - except when you add in the context of what CLE needs to do to retain guys right now & make a statement, and their current cap situation.
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Last edited by Broncofan on Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ketchup


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
Doesnt seem all that egregious to me. Not nearly as much as Jones will get.
Not egregious at all. I don't mean this to knock on Cleveland but the fact is, if they want to keep talent, they are going to have to pay a bit more in most cases.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ketchup wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Doesnt seem all that egregious to me. Not nearly as much as Jones will get.
Not egregious at all. I don't mean this to knock on Cleveland but the fact is, if they want to keep talent, they are going to have to pay a bit more in most cases.

Doesn't hurt that they have like $100M in cap space either.
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Tyty


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Changing the market for the better guys
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patsfan25


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broncofan wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
sdrawkcab321 wrote:
Quote:
The contract extension for #Browns LB Jamie Collins: 4 years, $50M, source said. $26M in guarantees. Large.


Far stretch from "Von Miller money" that was being reported though.


But it is a new bar for ILB's, just over Kuechly. That's quite an overpay in a vacuum for a guy I don't think is even a top 10 at the ILB position.

But, I get why CLE had to do it - only way to retain guys there.


Really? Can you name 10 that are better?
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patsfan25


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Collins is a fantastic chess piece on defense and someone to definitely build around. I don't think he's a fully polished player, and he probably won't ever be. Seems like he's stopped developing in that area. And he certainly has a questionable motor. But his athleticism and instincts alone make him a disruptive and explosive defensive player. Looks like he definitely made an impact after getting traded to Cleveland as well. Good for the Browns.
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Yin-Yang


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan25 wrote:
Collins is a fantastic chess piece on defense and someone to definitely build around. I don't think he's a fully polished player, and he probably won't ever be. Seems like he's stopped developing in that area. And he certainly has a questionable motor. But his athleticism and instincts alone make him a disruptive and explosive defensive player. Looks like he definitely made an impact after getting traded to Cleveland as well. Good for the Browns.


Pretty much this.

That said, I would've been a little concerned if NE gave him this deal. Obviously they lack the ammo (cap space) that Cleveland has, but they've got a lot of other important players to retain this offseason. Curious to see how Hightower's future contract compares to this one.
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hornbybrown


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow... I though he was going to get more than that.

Very happy with this. That leaves us at around 95 mil cap space with some likely cuts getting us to about 110 mil. Combine that with 5 picks in the first 65 and 3 comp picks, with the first coaching staff and front office I believe in..:, just maybe things are looking up
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MemphisEagles


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan25 wrote:
Collins is a fantastic chess piece on defense and someone to definitely build around. I don't think he's a fully polished player, and he probably won't ever be. Seems like he's stopped developing in that area. And he certainly has a questionable motor. But his athleticism and instincts alone make him a disruptive and explosive defensive player. Looks like he definitely made an impact after getting traded to Cleveland as well. Good for the Browns.


Yeah but he definitely fits the mold of a guy who won't live up to his big contract.
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Broncofan


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan25 wrote:
Broncofan wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
sdrawkcab321 wrote:
Quote:
The contract extension for #Browns LB Jamie Collins: 4 years, $50M, source said. $26M in guarantees. Large.


Far stretch from "Von Miller money" that was being reported though.


But it is a new bar for ILB's, just over Kuechly. That's quite an overpay in a vacuum for a guy I don't think is even a top 10 at the ILB position.

But, I get why CLE had to do it - only way to retain guys there.


Really? Can you name 10 that are better?


Kuechly, Wagner, Marshall, Lee, Freeman, Hightower I'd rank ahead of him by a fair amount.

Johnson, CJ Mosley, Deonte Buchanon, Shazier are a much tighter case, but I have them higher. And that's not accounting for the future guys, like Perryman, Kendricks MIN & Ragland, or the elite ILB draft guys coming in, who likely surge as some of those guys fade/get hurt. So yeah, not sure he's a top 10, let alone top ILB at his position $ wise.

Collins is a good player, a chess piece like you said - but agree he's also likely never going to be a complete player. And top at his position? No. Now, no doubt some or many of those guys (especially the young ones) will get paid more than Collins will in the future. But again, this is about CLE needing to lock a guy up, and not about straight up value.
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This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pnies20 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
DawgX wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
Browns have to overpay for pretty much anyone because a) they have to spend a ton of money and b) no one really wants to play there. Only absurd money will draw decent players to them right now. Not even meant to be an insult to them....its just true.

I like Collins, but his impact will continue to be limited until they get some talent around him. At least they have the resources to do so. Whether or not they do it the right way is another story.


What is the right way? Adding talent?

Nassib/Des Bryant/Shelton/Ogbah on the line with Collins/ /Kirksey is a good start. If Haden can get/stay healthy he has a couple years left and hopefully a safety already on the team becomes starting material. I think a quality MLB/S/CB could make this a competent defense whether acquired through FA or the draft. Potentially throw Garrett in there as a disrupter and that could help also.

I think the Browns are already doing this the right way, at least according to most fans. Building through the draft seems to be what 90% believe is the right way.


Finding talent, developing it and using it the right way....something the Browns have failed to do in 2 decades.

And yes....building through the draft is key. However, given how the Browns looked this season and all the money they have, Im honestly wondering if they go on another FA binge and overpay some players, out of fear and impatience.

Im not saying what will or will not happen....just that the Browns have squandered talent and draft picks in the past, and while this could be a landmark year for them in terms of getting things turned around, I dont trust them to make the most of the resources they have to turn this franchise around. It could happen....but we have seen the Browns in similar positions in the past and they failed miserably to take advantage.

Is this time different? We'll see.


This is also a completely different regime. But yes, we'll have to wait and see. Keeping a talent like Collins is a step in the right direction.


Different regime, yes....but thats part of my point. How many different "regimes" have they had? How many worked out?

Again, not saying this one wont have the same result....just that I will never trust a Browns regime until they actually prove a) they can turn things around, b) get over the hump and c) maintain it.

Honestly, in the past, I gave the Browns credit for certain drafts and offseason movies because I thought they were pretty solid....but then they turned out to mean nothing. So while I can see why Browns fans have hope, its kind of like....we have seen this before.

Just hope it has a different outcome....for the sake of Browns fans, anyway.


The Browns traditionally get pretty good draft grades right after the draft. We've had some talented teams minus a QB and we've had some pretty bad head coaches. The rare times that we get a coach or G.M. that looks like he knows what he is doing we fire them.


Well, as we all know, draft grades (immediately following the draft) dont mean much at all.

I wouldnt say the Browns have had any notably talented teams. Yes, they have had talented pieces, but it never comes together and even if things get going in the right direction, as you said, it gets blown up and its largely back to square 1.

All Im saying is....we'll see. If I were a Browns fan...even if I saw some things I liked, I would still not trust my front office at all until I saw it result in something better than a 6 or 7 win season.


2007 and 2014 were talented, just no continuity/continued draft success.


Compared to who? Or are you referring to the drafts?
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AkronsWitness


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
sdrawkcab321 wrote:
Quote:
The contract extension for #Browns LB Jamie Collins: 4 years, $50M, source said. $26M in guarantees. Large.


Far stretch from "Von Miller money" that was being reported though.


Yea, he got less than half of Von Miller money--but people wanted to paint him as a money hungry player with a Pacman Jones personality.

To the people who say he got overpaid:

1) Von Miller
2) Justin Houston
3) Clay Mathews
4) Jamie Collins
5) Luke Kuechley
6) Ryan Kerrigan
7) Bobby Wagner


Looking at that quick list, I think he is right where he should be in terms of salary. It was Lukes fault for not demanding more from the Panthers. Outside of that little hiccup, I think his salary is right where is should be.
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AkronsWitness


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
sdrawkcab321 wrote:
Quote:
The contract extension for #Browns LB Jamie Collins: 4 years, $50M, source said. $26M in guarantees. Large.


Far stretch from "Von Miller money" that was being reported though.


Yea, he got less than half of Von Miller money--but people wanted to paint him as a money hungry player with a Pacman Jones personality.

To the people who say he got overpaid:

1) Von Miller
2) Justin Houston
3) Clay Mathews
4) Jamie Collins
5) Luke Kuechley
6) Ryan Kerrigan
7) Bobby Wagner


Looking at that quick list, I think he is right where he should be in terms of salary. It was Lukes fault for not demanding more from the Panthers. Outside of that little hiccup, I think his salary is right where is should be.

If he got 76 million with 40 guaraunteed, I would call that an overpay. 50 mill with 25 guaranteed is not.
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AkronsWitness


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
sdrawkcab321 wrote:
Quote:
The contract extension for #Browns LB Jamie Collins: 4 years, $50M, source said. $26M in guarantees. Large.


Far stretch from "Von Miller money" that was being reported though.


Yea, he got less than half of Von Miller money--but people wanted to paint him as a money hungry player with a Pacman Jones personality.

To the people who say he got overpaid:

1) Von Miller
2) Justin Houston
3) Clay Mathews
4) Jamie Collins
5) Luke Kuechley
6) Ryan Kerrigan
7) Bobby Wagner


Looking at that quick list, I think he is right where he should be in terms of salary. It was Lukes fault for not demanding more from the Panthers. Outside of that little hiccup, I think his salary is right where is should be.

If he got 76 million with 40 guaraunteed, I would call that an overpay. 50 mill with 25 guaranteed is not.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone have a quick list of top paid linebackers so we know where he falls on the list?

Good for him getting paid, but it can't be easy going from the Patriots and annually competing for Super Bowls, to the Browns.
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