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2017 QB Thread - Version II
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Groink


Joined: 30 Dec 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
Rich7sena wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Sounds like Manziel, who wasn't even that good without all the off-field stuff. That description could also probably apply to Greg Ward JR too (though he's more athletic with a stronger arm).

I actually think Manziel was further ahead in terms of mechanics than Mahomes when they both came out, but I'd still give Mahomes a clear edge as a prospect. The arm talent is as good as I've seen from a college quarterback.
This is a joke, right?
He was throwing a mid 90's fastball in high school and his father pitched in the majors. I think it's safe to say he has a pretty good arm...
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Groink wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Rich7sena wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Sounds like Manziel, who wasn't even that good without all the off-field stuff. That description could also probably apply to Greg Ward JR too (though he's more athletic with a stronger arm).

I actually think Manziel was further ahead in terms of mechanics than Mahomes when they both came out, but I'd still give Mahomes a clear edge as a prospect. The arm talent is as good as I've seen from a college quarterback.
This is a joke, right?
He was throwing a mid 90's fastball in high school and his father pitched in the majors. I think it's safe to say he has a pretty good arm...
I didn't question it being "pretty good" (and btw how he or his dad throw a baseball doesn't matter)
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Groink


Joined: 30 Dec 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
Groink wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Rich7sena wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Sounds like Manziel, who wasn't even that good without all the off-field stuff. That description could also probably apply to Greg Ward JR too (though he's more athletic with a stronger arm).

I actually think Manziel was further ahead in terms of mechanics than Mahomes when they both came out, but I'd still give Mahomes a clear edge as a prospect. The arm talent is as good as I've seen from a college quarterback.
This is a joke, right?
He was throwing a mid 90's fastball in high school and his father pitched in the majors. I think it's safe to say he has a pretty good arm...
I didn't question it being "pretty good" (and btw how he or his dad throw a baseball doesn't matter)
Lol yea, him throwing a baseball faster than many major leaguers can while a teenager means nothing. Whatever you say. And his dad playing a pro sport and having an elite arm also had no effect on him either. Got it.

His arm is elite. Whether or not he cleans up his mechanics to use it to its best potential is the big question.
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Groink wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Groink wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Rich7sena wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Sounds like Manziel, who wasn't even that good without all the off-field stuff. That description could also probably apply to Greg Ward JR too (though he's more athletic with a stronger arm).

I actually think Manziel was further ahead in terms of mechanics than Mahomes when they both came out, but I'd still give Mahomes a clear edge as a prospect. The arm talent is as good as I've seen from a college quarterback.
This is a joke, right?
He was throwing a mid 90's fastball in high school and his father pitched in the majors. I think it's safe to say he has a pretty good arm...
I didn't question it being "pretty good" (and btw how he or his dad throw a baseball doesn't matter)
Lol yea, him throwing a baseball faster than many major leaguers can while a teenager means nothing. Whatever you say. And his dad playing a pro sport and having an elite arm also had no effect on him either. Got it.

His arm is elite. Whether or not he cleans up his mechanics to use it to its best potential is the big question.
I don't know why you guys get so mad when someone else has a different opinion or viewpoint. Throwing a baseball is irrelevant in regard to throwing a football. Throwing a football is relevant to throwing a football. I will care about how fast he can throw a baseball when it becomes relevant. What his dad did as an athlete is irrelevant to the situation. I don't care what his dad did because I am not evaluating his dad to play quarterback in the NFL. Neither his or his dad's throwing ability in baseball should be used as an assumption of his throwing ability in football.

His arm is not "elite" and it is not as good as any other college quarterback in, lets say, the past ten years (I'm not sure how long Rich7Sena has been closely watching college football, but ten seems like a decent guess). That's what I'm arguing against.
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Rich7sena


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
I don't know why you guys get so mad when someone else has a different opinion or viewpoint.

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jrry32


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CalhounLambeau wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Patrick Mahomes is one player whom I simply can't evaluate without knowing about his work habits and his football IQ. If you can develop that kid, he has Brett Favre like potential.

Exactly how I feel and who he compares to.


Yea. It's hard to have a concrete opinion on him as a draftnik. I just don't have the information I need. With most QBs, I can tell. With Mahomes, it's just too much projection.

That won't stop me from saying take him. But it will stop me from saying that I have a concrete first round grade on him.

IDOG_det wrote:
Sounds like Manziel, who wasn't even that good without all the off-field stuff. That description could also probably apply to Greg Ward JR too (though he's more athletic with a stronger arm).


Greg Ward Jr. is just not comparable. Yes, it does sound like Manziel to some degree. That's why I care about his football IQ and work habits. The difference is that Mahomes is on another level when compared to Manziel in terms of physical attributes.
(Although, I did think and still think that Manziel could have developed into a starting caliber NFL QB if he was willing to work at it and learn. But my belief back then was that he would not work at it, and I still feel that way now. I don't have any such belief on Mahomes. There's not nearly as much out there on him as Manziel in regards to work habits and character issues. It's just a complete unknown to me.)

IDOG_det wrote:
His arm is not "elite" and it is not as good as any other college quarterback in, lets say, the past ten years (I'm not sure how long Rich7Sena has been closely watching college football, but ten seems like a decent guess). That's what I'm arguing against.


You're nitpicking. His arm is easily in the Cutler/Stafford/Favre tier. That's a top tier arm. Who cares if Kaepernick or somebody else had a mildly stronger arm? It's not worth the debate.

The amount of velocity Mahomes can get while changing arm angles and without incorporating his lower body (or throwing off balance) is pretty incredible.
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
His arm is not "elite" and it is not as good as any other college quarterback in, lets say, the past ten years (I'm not sure how long Rich7Sena has been closely watching college football, but ten seems like a decent guess). That's what I'm arguing against.


You're nitpicking. His arm is easily in the Cutler/Stafford/Favre tier. That's a top tier arm. Who cares if Kaepernick or somebody else had a mildly stronger arm? It's not worth the debate.

The amount of velocity Mahomes can get while changing arm angles and without incorporating his lower body (or throwing off balance) is pretty incredible.
It's not though...I don't know how you can watch those guys and say the arms are even close to the same. There are so many throws where his velocity wouldn't struggle if he had an elite arm...but...it still happens.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
It's not though...I don't know how you can watch those guys and say the arms are even close to the same. There are so many throws where his velocity wouldn't struggle if he had an elite arm...but...it still happens.


Well, I did. So have multiple other posters in this thread. Maybe you should start asking yourself how you can watch those guys and not see it when so many others do?

I've never seen his velocity struggle. I've seen a guy who sometimes floats balls unnecessarily. But I've also seen him make the same throws with a ton of zip. One of the things I like about Mahomes is that he knows when to take something off of the ball. Sometimes, he'll make a mistake with it, but I have zero doubts about his arm strength.

His ability to generate velocity without incorporating his lower body is Auburn Cam Newton esque. I'm not sure how you aren't seeing it. And it seems like many others feel that way.
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
It's not though...I don't know how you can watch those guys and say the arms are even close to the same. There are so many throws where his velocity wouldn't struggle if he had an elite arm...but...it still happens.


Well, I did. So have multiple other posters in this thread. Maybe you should start asking yourself how you can watch those guys and not see it when so many others do?

I've never seen his velocity struggle. I've seen a guy who sometimes floats balls unnecessarily. But I've also seen him make the same throws with a ton of zip. One of the things I like about Mahomes is that he knows when to take something off of the ball. Sometimes, he'll make a mistake with it, but I have zero doubts about his arm strength.

His ability to generate velocity without incorporating his lower body is Auburn Cam Newton esque. I'm not sure how you aren't seeing it. And it seems like many others feel that way.
I don't care about that. I'd rather look at something myself and be wrong than be right because I went along with other people for the sake of going along with other people.

Off of the top of my head I can think of plays against Oklahoma where his velocity struggled, one pass almost bouncing in on a 5 yard out. Having an elite arm is more than just making good throws with good velocity, it's also about not making poor throws with poor velocity. Mahomes doesn't get good velocity on throws that guys with elite arms would. I've never said he can't generate good velocity, what I don't understand is why people are ignoring the bad plays (or not remembering them or whatever).
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
It's not though...I don't know how you can watch those guys and say the arms are even close to the same. There are so many throws where his velocity wouldn't struggle if he had an elite arm...but...it still happens.


Well, I did. So have multiple other posters in this thread. Maybe you should start asking yourself how you can watch those guys and not see it when so many others do?

I've never seen his velocity struggle. I've seen a guy who sometimes floats balls unnecessarily. But I've also seen him make the same throws with a ton of zip. One of the things I like about Mahomes is that he knows when to take something off of the ball. Sometimes, he'll make a mistake with it, but I have zero doubts about his arm strength.

His ability to generate velocity without incorporating his lower body is Auburn Cam Newton esque. I'm not sure how you aren't seeing it. And it seems like many others feel that way.
I don't care about that. I'd rather look at something myself and be wrong than be right because I went along with other people for the sake of going along with other people.

Off of the top of my head I can think of plays against Oklahoma where his velocity struggled, one pass almost bouncing in on a 5 yard out. Having an elite arm is more than just making good throws with good velocity, it's also about not making poor throws with poor velocity. Mahomes doesn't get good velocity on throws that guys with elite arms would. I've never said he can't generate good velocity, what I don't understand is why people are ignoring the bad plays (or not remembering them or whatever).


Yet, I don't think you're sitting here trying to tell us that Mahomes has such a weak arm that he can't throw a 5 yard out. That should probably indicate to you that arm strength wasn't the issue on that play.

Mahomes gets velocity on throws that just wouldn't be possible without having a top tier arm. It makes it clear to me where I'd rank his arm.

You're welcome to continue fighting this battle. But it's not an argument worth continuing to me.
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
It's not though...I don't know how you can watch those guys and say the arms are even close to the same. There are so many throws where his velocity wouldn't struggle if he had an elite arm...but...it still happens.


Well, I did. So have multiple other posters in this thread. Maybe you should start asking yourself how you can watch those guys and not see it when so many others do?

I've never seen his velocity struggle. I've seen a guy who sometimes floats balls unnecessarily. But I've also seen him make the same throws with a ton of zip. One of the things I like about Mahomes is that he knows when to take something off of the ball. Sometimes, he'll make a mistake with it, but I have zero doubts about his arm strength.

His ability to generate velocity without incorporating his lower body is Auburn Cam Newton esque. I'm not sure how you aren't seeing it. And it seems like many others feel that way.
I don't care about that. I'd rather look at something myself and be wrong than be right because I went along with other people for the sake of going along with other people.

Off of the top of my head I can think of plays against Oklahoma where his velocity struggled, one pass almost bouncing in on a 5 yard out. Having an elite arm is more than just making good throws with good velocity, it's also about not making poor throws with poor velocity. Mahomes doesn't get good velocity on throws that guys with elite arms would. I've never said he can't generate good velocity, what I don't understand is why people are ignoring the bad plays (or not remembering them or whatever).


Yet, I don't think you're sitting here trying to tell us that Mahomes has such a weak arm that he can't throw a 5 yard out. That should probably indicate to you that arm strength wasn't the issue on that play.

Mahomes gets velocity on throws that just wouldn't be possible without having a top tier arm. It makes it clear to me where I'd rank his arm.

You're welcome to continue fighting this battle. But it's not an argument worth continuing to me.
If he had an elite arm the other issues wouldn't matter. If his arm was elite he would be able to throw a 5 yard out even with his terrible footwork. Simple as that.
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Rich7sena


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pat Kirwan wrote:
A well respected QB coach for decades in the NFL told me Mahomes has the best arm talent since Brett Favre. Raw & not ready but worth it!

FF->Twitter->FF
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Groink


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
I don't know why you guys get so mad when someone else has a different opinion or viewpoint. Throwing a baseball is irrelevant in regard to throwing a football. Throwing a football is relevant to throwing a football. I will care about how fast he can throw a baseball when it becomes relevant. What his dad did as an athlete is irrelevant to the situation. I don't care what his dad did because I am not evaluating his dad to play quarterback in the NFL. Neither his or his dad's throwing ability in baseball should be used as an assumption of his throwing ability in football.

His arm is not "elite" and it is not as good as any other college quarterback in, lets say, the past ten years (I'm not sure how long Rich7Sena has been closely watching college football, but ten seems like a decent guess). That's what I'm arguing against.
No one is mad, and you can have your own opinion, even if it is wrong. NFL people are calling his arm the best in the class as well.

And I'm not saying you draft someone on what they did in another sport, but it is a telling correlation of his arm strength. I pitched in college, and I could also throw a football 60 yards. It means nothing, they are completely different throwing motions, but it tells you his arm is top tier.
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CalhounLambeau


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Deshaun Watson is impressing every team with his knowledge of the offense his understanding of coverages and personnel and leadership skills

- Michael Lombardi
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CalhounLambeau wrote:
Quote:
Deshaun Watson is impressing every team with his knowledge of the offense his understanding of coverages and personnel and leadership skills

- Michael Lombardi
the lack of commas is killing me
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