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Jakuvious


Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 15324
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
Jakuvious wrote:
ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
I think the DL has an abundance of disruptive guys when healthy...Jones, Howard, Poe, RNR. Another wouldn't hurt, but how many guys do we need when we usually only play 2 at a time.


Poe is pretty rarely disruptive anymore. He's no longer that guy. He'll eat a double team. He'll get the occasional PD or big push. But he had maybe 1 or 2 actual disruptive plays per game this year. And that's probably being generous. PFF had him as our lowest graded front 7 player. He gets a pass because he's a fan favorite and those offensive plays are lots of fun, but he did not have a productive or disruptive season this year. And he clearly must not have been that good as a space eater either, given how often our ILBs were getting blocked and how poor our interior run defense was. Calling him disruptive after this season is just foolish.

Howard was a little better, but missed half the season.

RNR is unquestionably disruptive, but also disrupts himself a bit too often.

A lot of us overrate our talent, honestly. Particularly on the DL. And offensive skill positions, at times. Our DL is good, but if you really think Houston, Ford, Hali, RNR, Jones, Poe, and Howard were ALL disruptive players this year, then we should've been top 10 in sacks without a defensive coordinator at all.

For whatever reason, it's easier for people to blame coaches than it is to acknowledge that sometimes good players have bad games or bad plays or bad years, or sometimes the players just aren't THAT good.


Look I agree about Poe and I dont believe Tamba was disruptive either. Others were hurt part time. On the other hand you seem to be saying we are what our production shows and the coaches did all they could. Sacks can be misleading but 28th isnt good. Pressures is more vital and we were like 23rd...

So would you say the front 7 talent/skill level we put on the field this year was about 25th in the league?


No, but I think we had some who did not perform to their talent level. Not because of coaching, just because performance varies. Tamba is declining, Poe has back problems, Howard missed half the year, RNR is very raw. Jones is still learning as well. If we get the best version of each of those players, we're dominant. But that's not normally going to be the case. There's always a spectrum. Even elite players are not elite on every snap of every game of every year. But that's also not always the fault of coaching. When guys just aren't doing a very good job of breaking off blocks, there isn't much that play calling will do to fix that. And you could see that against Pittsburgh, for instance. Guys were just unable to beat the guys blocking them. Playcalling won't fix that.
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ArrowheadRage58


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
Jakuvious wrote:
ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
I think the DL has an abundance of disruptive guys when healthy...Jones, Howard, Poe, RNR. Another wouldn't hurt, but how many guys do we need when we usually only play 2 at a time.


Poe is pretty rarely disruptive anymore. He's no longer that guy. He'll eat a double team. He'll get the occasional PD or big push. But he had maybe 1 or 2 actual disruptive plays per game this year. And that's probably being generous. PFF had him as our lowest graded front 7 player. He gets a pass because he's a fan favorite and those offensive plays are lots of fun, but he did not have a productive or disruptive season this year. And he clearly must not have been that good as a space eater either, given how often our ILBs were getting blocked and how poor our interior run defense was. Calling him disruptive after this season is just foolish.

Howard was a little better, but missed half the season.

RNR is unquestionably disruptive, but also disrupts himself a bit too often.

A lot of us overrate our talent, honestly. Particularly on the DL. And offensive skill positions, at times. Our DL is good, but if you really think Houston, Ford, Hali, RNR, Jones, Poe, and Howard were ALL disruptive players this year, then we should've been top 10 in sacks without a defensive coordinator at all.

For whatever reason, it's easier for people to blame coaches than it is to acknowledge that sometimes good players have bad games or bad plays or bad years, or sometimes the players just aren't THAT good.


Look I agree about Poe and I dont believe Tamba was disruptive either. Others were hurt part time. On the other hand you seem to be saying we are what our production shows and the coaches did all they could. Sacks can be misleading but 28th isnt good. Pressures is more vital and we were like 23rd...

So would you say the front 7 talent/skill level we put on the field this year was about 25th in the league?


No, but I think we had some who did not perform to their talent level. Not because of coaching, just because performance varies. Tamba is declining, Poe has back problems, Howard missed half the year, RNR is very raw. Jones is still learning as well. If we get the best version of each of those players, we're dominant. But that's not normally going to be the case. There's always a spectrum. Even elite players are not elite on every snap of every game of every year. But that's also not always the fault of coaching. When guys just aren't doing a very good job of breaking off blocks, there isn't much that play calling will do to fix that. And you could see that against Pittsburgh, for instance. Guys were just unable to beat the guys blocking them. Playcalling won't fix that.


I did say the talent/skill that "we put on the field" which is a declining Tamba, a Poe with chronic back issues, Howard for half the year, a still learning Jones, a raw RnR, etc...

Jones was partly dominant and overall a terrific player, RnR was a revelation, Houston was Houston in the games he played, Ford was vastly improved and a sack leader at one point who also had some performances of note in non-sack games, Poe was maybe the weakest link at times and still a solid player, Tamba was a solid fill in finishing 21st in the NFL in hurries.

So it seems, for the most part, we had guys perform at or above their skill level/expectations...

Yet the overall product...there was not many results to speak of team wise...not just pressures and sacks, obviously the biggest problem in run D was the ILB's after DJ but the DL wasn't that good either as we struggled b4 his injury.

Are you saying we'd of been better off with the Dallas Cowboys DL this year? They seemed to perform at or above our level on the DL with a bunch of nobodies. When you can look at pretty much each starter/edge guy and be happy with his individual play this year and have no complaints with the depth, it seems that falls back on coaching. They were clearly not in position to win enough key downs, imo. The defense was obviously good, but I don't think it met any fans expectations, even if we beat Pit 21-18 in OT.
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Your Denver hatred is borderline pathological. I don't think my girlfriend cheating on me would cause me as much hate as you have for Denver.
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onejayhawk


Joined: 14 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thoughts on Tim Williams LB Alabama and Zach Cunningham LB Vandy?

Williams is a great edge rusher with possibly significant off the field issue. Cunningham is an undersized college ILB that many pundits project outside in a 4-3. DJ was a weakside LB in the 4-3 and ZC has college experience inside. Both would have to slide to reach us. Both have issues that may cause a slide.

If we can, should we pull the trigger on either of them?

J
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kingseanjohn


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

onejayhawk wrote:
Thoughts on Tim Williams LB Alabama and Zach Cunningham LB Vandy?

Williams is a great edge rusher with possibly significant off the field issue. Cunningham is an undersized college ILB that many pundits project outside in a 4-3. DJ was a weakside LB in the 4-3 and ZC has college experience inside. Both would have to slide to reach us. Both have issues that may cause a slide.

If we can, should we pull the trigger on either of them?

J


I like what little I've seen of Williams. However, he was arrested for carrying a pistol without a permit. He also reportedly had multiple failed drug tests.
Quote:
They say the severity of his substance-abuse issues are similar to Dallas Cowboys defensive end Randy Gregory

The interview process will make or break him. I'm leaning towards avoiding him unless he falls to the 4th right now. And I highly doubt he does that.


If we draft defense in the 1st round, my pick right now is Zach Cunningham. He looks like he'll be a great player. But he also fills a potential position of need. A lot of this depends on how much we like March/Wilson for the future. I think DJ can/should return next year. But at this point he's like a yearly rental. This is also dependent on giving Mitchell a real shot as the #2 CB next year.
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Jakuvious


Joined: 06 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:

I did say the talent/skill that "we put on the field" which is a declining Tamba, a Poe with chronic back issues, Howard for half the year, a still learning Jones, a raw RnR, etc...

Jones was partly dominant and overall a terrific player, RnR was a revelation, Houston was Houston in the games he played, Ford was vastly improved and a sack leader at one point who also had some performances of note in non-sack games, Poe was maybe the weakest link at times and still a solid player, Tamba was a solid fill in finishing 21st in the NFL in hurries.

So it seems, for the most part, we had guys perform at or above their skill level/expectations...

Yet the overall product...there was not many results to speak of team wise...not just pressures and sacks, obviously the biggest problem in run D was the ILB's after DJ but the DL wasn't that good either as we struggled b4 his injury.

Are you saying we'd of been better off with the Dallas Cowboys DL this year? They seemed to perform at or above our level on the DL with a bunch of nobodies. When you can look at pretty much each starter/edge guy and be happy with his individual play this year and have no complaints with the depth, it seems that falls back on coaching. They were clearly not in position to win enough key downs, imo. The defense was obviously good, but I don't think it met any fans expectations, even if we beat Pit 21-18 in OT.


Houston was not always Houston. His performance outside of the Denver one (and maybe Atlanta) was not that of an elite OLB. Particularly against Pittsburgh. His impact in that postseason game was virtually non-existent.

My point is simple. We had guys who were not winning one on one matchups frequently enough. Ford late in the year, Houston outside the Denver game, Poe and Hali and others throughout the majority of the season. That isn't coaching. I'm not talking about the overall product. I don't care about our sack or pressure totals, for the sake of this argument. I'm talking about the simple fact that most of our players on the defensive front were not winning one on one battles with any consistency. Throw out play calls, throw out large scale ideas, I'm talking when we put Dontari Poe against a C, for too much of the season, he was losing too often. And that's just an example. It was across the board.

Because your analysis just doesn't make sense. You're saying all these very talented guys played at or above their talent level, yet they didn't get sacks? That straight up doesn't make sense. Especially when we consistently saw games against Pittsburgh or Tampa Bay or Tennessee or Oakland where QBs had forever in the pocket or RBs had consistently clean holes. Our guys were just getting beat in those games. Plain and simple. If you think Sutton needs to compensate for our guys getting beat better than he does now, I can hear that argument. That makes some sense. But this narrative that our defense is the most talented in the NFL and every single starter and most of our backups are all very talented and played really well all year....but Sutton screwed it up is complete bull. Sutton's schemes are fairly straightforward. If the guys are playing well, the defense will succeed. If the defense is failing, those guys aren't playing as well as you think they are. Our defensive front was overrated around here this year. Plain and simple. They got man-handled on a fairly consistent basis all year by opposing OLs. That's not coaching. That's player performance.

(Sorry, in retrospect, some of this MIGHT not be directed at you specifically. The Sutton stuff. I might accidentally be blurring together two different debates.)
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Rearviewmirror


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rage thinks that elite players should play elite 100% of the time and when they don't he can't comprehend it.
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valkrei


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
Rage thinks that elite players should play elite 100% of the time and when they don't he can't comprehend it.


100 percent is impossible. But when its a big game, we do need our big players to have big games. If your only good stats are against weaker teams then its not different then throwing for an extra 150 yards a game in junk time and your team lost by 30 points.
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ArrowheadRage58


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

-AR
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BroncosFan2010 wrote:

Your Denver hatred is borderline pathological. I don't think my girlfriend cheating on me would cause me as much hate as you have for Denver.


Last edited by ArrowheadRage58 on Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ArrowheadRage58


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
Rage thinks that elite players should play elite 100% of the time and when they don't he can't comprehend it.


That makes no sense...nobody expects that. Do we have a better DL/Edge players than most of the league or not? It's about if the team front 7 (or 5) is playing up to their capabilities skill/talent level as a unit.

And i'll repeat what I said in another thread that nobody had an answer for:

"Even more so to my main point, the bend but don't break D is better suited to stop teams who are more likely to shoot themselves in the foot...the teams KC is trying to get over the hump against in the playoffs...NE and to a lesser extent Pit are far less likely to screw it up themselves and Sutton is basically gifting these teams a FG attempt before they start to bear down. That is unlikely to bring us a SB, imo. The way to beat Brady was shown last year and KC has very similar pieces, yet chooses to do the exact opposite."

And yes, I thot it was clear Sutton needs to scheme better....obviously at certain times when we weren't able to get there or another team had a good matchup against us. So yeah, our guys were just getting beat sometimes...it happens. But clearly there was plenty to work with in and it just seems they weren't being put in position often enough to win...especially on 3rd downs.
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Your Denver hatred is borderline pathological. I don't think my girlfriend cheating on me would cause me as much hate as you have for Denver.
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valkrei


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
-AR


Nice your Initials.
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mayanfootball


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Following is a scouting report link for Jarrad Davis, ILB, Florida. Notice who the author compares Davis to in the NFL.
http://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Draft-Scouting-Reports/Scouting-Report-Jarrad-Davis.asp
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Chiefer


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^Jarrad Davis is a guy who I really like, hopefully he lasts to the 27th pick.


A player everybody seems to have forgotten about is quarterback Chad Kelly. Heck I even ask about him in he Draft forum and get no response Laughing Crying or Very sad

I think he could become a great QB, anybody that can go into Bama and win deserves some props(see: Dak Prescott). He's got a quick release and the ball gets to his receivers on a rope. Can make all the throws, but is usually a high tempo short range/intermediate passer. I actually think he'd be a great fit for the Chiefs, that Ole Miss offense isn't that different from the Chiefs.

Not to mention his uncle is Jim Kelly.
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samsel23


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiefer wrote:
^Jarrad Davis is a guy who I really like, hopefully he lasts to the 27th pick.


A player everybody seems to have forgotten about is quarterback Chad Kelly. Heck I even ask about him in he Draft forum and get no response Laughing Crying or Very sad

I think he could become a great QB, anybody that can go into Bama and win deserves some props(see: Dak Prescott). He's got a quick release and the ball gets to his receivers on a rope. Can make all the throws, but is usually a high tempo short range/intermediate passer. I actually think he'd be a great fit for the Chiefs, that Ole Miss offense isn't that different from the Chiefs.

Not to mention his uncle is Jim Kelly.


Yeah I love Jarrad Davis. He does a lot of nice things, but my favorite is he is a pile stopper. When he makes a hit or comes into a pile he's either driving them backwards or stopping them on the spot.


Also I'd look more into Chad Kelly's personality, everything I've read about him makes him seem like an entitled POS.
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Chiefer


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

samsel23 wrote:
Chiefer wrote:
^Jarrad Davis is a guy who I really like, hopefully he lasts to the 27th pick.


A player everybody seems to have forgotten about is quarterback Chad Kelly. Heck I even ask about him in he Draft forum and get no response Laughing Crying or Very sad

I think he could become a great QB, anybody that can go into Bama and win deserves some props(see: Dak Prescott). He's got a quick release and the ball gets to his receivers on a rope. Can make all the throws, but is usually a high tempo short range/intermediate passer. I actually think he'd be a great fit for the Chiefs, that Ole Miss offense isn't that different from the Chiefs.

Not to mention his uncle is Jim Kelly.


Yeah I love Jarrad Davis. He does a lot of nice things, but my favorite is he is a pile stopper. When he makes a hit or comes into a pile he's either driving them backwards or stopping them on the spot.


Also I'd look more into Chad Kelly's personality, everything I've read about him makes him seem like an entitled POS.

Send me links because I'm not seeing it. I'm not saying he's a choir boy but the QB really doesn't have to be.

Maybe 3 years ago, but once he got kicked off Clemson and had to go to a community college he's done better.

Kinda reminds me of Kelce personality-wise, which out of a QB you need that sort of ingrained arrogance.
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Chiefer


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a guy we could go for if available is Adoree Jackson. If he does great on the 3-cone it's a guarantee.

He's very smooth, let Al Harris/ET coach him up and he could ball. Then Tyreek can focus on offense.
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