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Elway's got his guy: Vance Joseph new Broncos HC
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AnAngryAmerican


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 19377
Location: Loveland, CO
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I said the hire should raise some red flags. Should it not?

Not only did his team fail to show up in crunch time in the playoffs but they crapped the bed the week prior against the Pats. Talent deficiencies not withstanding, that's big. Given the likely return of Fox Ball to Denver - Fox was reported to have said "isn't winning the division enough?" - should we not do our due dilligence as fans and question the move, examine its positive and negative aspects?

Given how poorly the hire has been received by the fan base should we not worry that we could return to Mac-era like levels of discontention where things were incessantly contentious; that has an affect on the team, believe it or not, players/coaches/execs know what the sentiment of the fans (customers) is. A negative aura surrounding the team is not helpful. The expected dismissal of Wade as DC and hire of Mike McCoy to be OC is not going to help matters. One radio host tosay said this hire is only marginally better than Mac while others think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread - division among fans is not helpful.

I'm not trying to be a doom-and-gloom guy but the potential for problems here is pretty serious. No?

Things might work out. I sure hope they do. If Elway is right and Vance is a lockerroom altering force, that would be great. And I will give him and his staff time. But, boy, this is a leap of faith and a major roll of the dice.
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mke1010


Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
BroncoBruin wrote:
I think it would be a huge mistake to abandon the zone blocking WCO. The scheme needs some creative tweaks, a few new coaches and an influx of talent along the offensive line. But to start over completely with a new offense? Man, I don't see that as the right move at all.

I agree that scrapping the offense and returning to Fox Ball under Mike McCoy is a bad idea. Sucks to think what could have been had we hired Kyle, fix the offense, keep the defense in-tact and contend next year. Instead all we have to look forward is a rebuilding year, vanilla game-plans and conservative play-calling. What a waste of all the HOF talent on this defense. Other than the cheerleaders and CU homers on The Fan, this hire is not being terrible well-received by many in the media and a majority of the fan base.

Put your money where your mouth is to back up this repetitive whining. Let's make a bet. You say Broncos will be rebuilding next season, I say there will be every bit as much in the hunt for the playoffs next season as they were this season. I also think think depending on QB play, they could be real SB contenders.
Care to make it interesting?
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mke1010


Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and btw, everybody has a bad day at the office. EVERYBODY. We get it. Miami defense was uninspired, played without heart and was bad against the Steelers. I watched the game. Many of us did.
You've made your point but like Elliot said, it lacks depth.

Show me a pattern throughout his career of players not playing hard for him, being uninspired and performing poorly and then you have a case. Anyone can pick one game and make of it whatever they wish particularly if it suits a favored viewpoint.
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germ-x


Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 9157
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the hire. I said it a few days ago, Vance Joseph had similar career path to Mike Tonkin and both were well regarded in their ability to relate to players.

I laid out my criteria multiple times in what has made rookie head coaches sustain success and aside from Special Teams experience Joseph checked all the boxes.

My list was Toub, Joseph, and then Shanahan.

Shanahan scared me the most. I honestly would have been a bit upset if he were the hire.

Toub and Joseph were neck and neck, I gave Toub the edge because of special teams experience.
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Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 2987
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, I don't agree with using 1 game to raise big flags. But everyone's entitled to their opinion. If we all agreed, it would be one boring place...unless you're all agreeing with me, in which case, carry on. Laughing

(I kid, in case, it's not clear)

I would however suggest we find out the entirety of Joseph's coaching staff will be before we draw more conclusions. Unlike post-game threads, or discussions on players' peformances, here we're still working off a lot of unknowns. Let's face it, who Joseph hires as OC, OL coach, DC and ST coach will go a long way in determining his fate as HC here. For example, any decision that involves keeping Barone as OL coach, man, I can't support in any way, shape or form.
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This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
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mke1010


Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broncofan wrote:
Guys, I don't agree with using 1 game to raise big flags. But everyone's entitled to their opinion. If we all agreed, it would be one boring place...unless you're all agreeing with me, in which case, carry on. Laughing

(I kid, in case, it's not clear)

I would however suggest we find out the entirety of Joseph's coaching staff will be before we draw more conclusions. Unlike post-game threads, or discussions on players' peformances, here we're still working off a lot of unknowns. Let's face it, who Joseph hires as OC, OL coach, DC and ST coach will go a long way in determining his fate as HC here. For example, any decision that involves keeping Barone as OL coach, man, I can't support in any way, shape or form.


I agree with you. Very Happy
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pittsburgh is impossible to play in look at the Chiefs earlier in the year they got smoked with a top 5 defensive unit.
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and Mccoy is a good Oc he hasn't had much in terms of talent Peyton was coming of neck surgery we had no true full back. Tebow was Tebow .
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Big Palooka wrote:
"They don't have to worry about him making consistent passes. They will win another 2-3 max with him at QB."
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AnAngryAmerican


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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Location: Loveland, CO
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear God.

All I've said was that the defensive performance of Miami against Pittsburgh should raise some red flags and thus the leadership traits so ascribed to Vance bears watching since his team didn't come to play.

Changing offensive schemes with someone who has been as nondescript an OC as Mike McCoy, when offense was clearly our problem, is troubling. Maybe McCoy learns how to coach and coordinate an offense when he doesn't have Peyton Manning. Maybe he learns how to develop QBs when he's never had to.

Maybe Joe Woods can step in for Wade and we don't miss a beat. The history of the NFL is littered with rookie DCs who replaced HOF DCs and saw nary a drop off in production, right? Just look how good the Steelers D has been since LeBeau left.
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BroncoBruin


Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Posts: 12842
Location: La Mesa, CA
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You do have to wonder if hiring McCoy means moving from a WCO to an Ernhardt-Pickens offense. That might be beneficial to Siemian, but I don't see the fit for Lynch...
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We have to keep in mind that Rob Bironas is dead, but might be an upgrade over McMannus.
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champ11


Joined: 14 Apr 2014
Posts: 5501
Location: CO -> ATX
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
I said the hire should raise some red flags. Should it not?

Not only did his team fail to show up in crunch time in the playoffs but they crapped the bed the week prior against the Pats. Talent deficiencies not withstanding, that's big. Given the likely return of Fox Ball to Denver - Fox was reported to have said "isn't winning the division enough?" - should we not do our due dilligence as fans and question the move, examine its positive and negative aspects?

Given how poorly the hire has been received by the fan base should we not worry that we could return to Mac-era like levels of discontention where things were incessantly contentious; that has an affect on the team, believe it or not, players/coaches/execs know what the sentiment of the fans (customers) is. A negative aura surrounding the team is not helpful. The expected dismissal of Wade as DC and hire of Mike McCoy to be OC is not going to help matters. One radio host tosay said this hire is only marginally better than Mac while others think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread - division among fans is not helpful.

I'm not trying to be a doom-and-gloom guy but the potential for problems here is pretty serious. No?

Things might work out. I sure hope they do. If Elway is right and Vance is a lockerroom altering force, that would be great. And I will give him and his staff time. But, boy, this is a leap of faith and a major roll of the dice.


Honestly, I'm just disappointed the fan base has reacted in such a negative manner. I think it's complete BS.

So everyone wants Shanahan to come in and fix the offense while the defense remains elite and Wade stays. Everyone is acting like it was just plug and go. It's looking more and more like Wade was never going to be here. Additionally, who says our defense is going to gel with the offensive wiz kid. The offensive wiz kid that had a very good offensive line, 2 running backs that are both better than any RB we have, the third best WR in the league, and of course an MVP finalist at QB this past season. It was never a lock that this team was going to instantly become a contender with Shanahan at the helm with this offensive talent. The key is what Elway does on that side of the ball this offseason. Is Elway still here? Yup.

Do the majority of Broncos fans have any insight into how the coaching search operates or even what the keys to being a head coach are? I doubt it. Apparently people think they know who is a better fit to run the organization than John Elway.

So since everyone was excited about Shanahan they are going to latch onto some fairly superficial and irrelevant issues with Vance Joseph and his abilities to be a head coach. Is there a reason to question the playoff performance? Absolutely. And I'm sure Joseph was questioned about it in the interview. But to already lack confidence and be ready to pounce on Vance Joseph for these reasons is ridiculous.

We have a guy that is 44 and who Elway coveted two years ago. NFL people have only said good things about him, including Phillips and Kubiak. He has experience in numerous different places and has been working his way up the coaching ranks since he left the NFL. I wish people were excited that we hired a young guy whom Elway clearly views as a long term coach for this franchise. It's just disappointing for me that the fan base is already pissed at this guy who they haven't even heard speak yet. He deserves a chance. I'm not talking about being sheep. I'm talking about being positive based on what we know as fans and how well we know this organization is run.

Anyways, this isn't specifically directed at you AAA. I know you are as knowledgeable and invested as any Broncos fan. We're all going to be happy if Vance succeeds. I just wish the fan base would be happy for this guy and excited to see what he does.

I do think the coordinator hires are incredibly important so I look forward to discussing what the units will look like and what everyone thinks of the hires.
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germ-x


Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
Dear God.

All I've said was that the defensive performance of Miami against Pittsburgh should raise some red flags and thus the leadership traits so ascribed to Vance bears watching since his team didn't come to play.

Changing offensive schemes with someone who has been as nondescript an OC as Mike McCoy, when offense was clearly our problem, is troubling. Maybe McCoy learns how to coach and coordinate an offense when he doesn't have Peyton Manning. Maybe he learns how to develop QBs when he's never had to.

Maybe Joe Woods can step in for Wade and we don't miss a beat. The history of the NFL is littered with rookie DCs who replaced HOF DCs and saw nary a drop off in production, right? Just look how good the Steelers D has been since LeBeau left.


Again, McCoy doesn't get enough credit. The guy is a good OC. No he isn't great, but he's the best veteran OC on the market.

As far as the defense, I think I've said it 10x now. As long has Elway keeps bringing in the talent and the DC doesn't get conservative the way Del Rio was with this team the defense will be fine. The biggest thing Phillips brought was aggressiveness. This team has the DBs that can hold up bringing 5 or 6 players and the talent up front to make that aggressiveness count. Where this team has issues is when they start playing off man/soft coverage. It's an attacking defense and as long had the next DC understands that the defense will be fine. I love what SOB brought to this team and hope he somehow sticks around, but I also don't see him as a tremendous loss and said that weeks ago. As good as he is, Denver was also a perfect fit for him (much like Shanahan was for Denver during Elways last 3 years) if Denver wouldn't have had the defensive talent they had the past 2 years Broncos fans would have ran Phillips out of town (which has happened to Wade on many occasions). He's looked terrible as a DC when he hasn't had a defensive backfield that could withstand his aggressive play calling. Still, though, Denver is a perfect fit for what he likes to do, but not the end all be all for this teams success.

The Lebeau reference is terrible as well. The Steeler defense has actually improved each year since 2014, which was Lebeau's last year with the team.
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broncos_fan _from _uk


Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 9313
Location: SA
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a good hire. With all of the candidates we were looking at we were going to go through some growing pains. Like I said in the other thread, with the exception of Tomlin, all of the coaches who have won a SB within 3 years of taking over the job in the last 25 years have been previous HCs (either in college or the NFL).

My preference was Toub but VJ was a close second. Again like I said in the other thread, the thought of Shanahan scared me. I truly believe he will fail in his first HC gig. I give him 4 years before he is fired. If it wasnt for his last name I would want nothing to do with him. He is the type of HC that fails in the modern NFL. The fact is the job of the coach has changed so much in the last 20 years, with the size of the staffs and the areas of responsibility, that skills required to be a good coordinator (X/O creativity, exhaustive film study) are not the same as those required to be a good HC. I think the reason so many Hot Coordinators fail is because they are promoted based upon the job they did not their projected ability to do the job they are being promoted into. It's a common phenomenon in the business world known as the Peters Principle.

Vance on the other hand has the qualities you look for in a successful HC. Organized, can handle our..ahem..ego players, motives very well, delegates, and is well respected. We shall see (as we would have with all of them) how he is at game management but, yeah, I like the hire.

As for the mike McCoy hire, I know many find in uninspired, but in the NFL he is considered a (if not THE) top OC available. As for Woods I think it shows that he wants to keep the defense together as much as possible given the contract issues with Wade.
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germ-x


Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos_fan _from _uk wrote:
It's a good hire. With all of the candidates we were looking at we were going to go through some growing pains. Like I said in the other thread, with the exception of Tomlin, all of the coaches who have won a SB within 3 years of taking over the job in the last 25 years have been previous HCs (either in college or the NFL).

My preference was Toub but VJ was a close second. Again like I said in the other thread, the thought of Shanahan scared me. I truly believe he will fail in his first HC gig. I give him 4 years before he is fired. If it wasnt for his last name I would want nothing to do with him. He is the type of HC that fails in the modern NFL. The fact is the job of the coach has changed so much in the last 20 years, with the size of the staffs and the areas of responsibility, that skills required to be a good coordinator (X/O creativity, exhaustive film study) are not the same as those required to be a good HC. I think the reason so many Hot Coordinators fail is because they are promoted based upon the job they did not their projected ability to do the job they are being promoted into. It's a common phenomenon in the business world known as the Peters Principle.

Vance on the other hand has the qualities you look for in a successful HC. Organized, can handle our..ahem..ego players, motives very well, delegates, and is well respected. We shall see (as we would have with all of them) how he is at game management but, yeah, I like the hire.

As for the mike McCoy hire, I know many find in uninspired, but in the NFL he is considered a (if not THE) top OC available. As for Woods I think it shows that he wants to keep the defense together as much as possible given the contract issues with Wade.


Excellent post and I agree with all of it.

I really don't understand the hate for McCoy. He's a good coach.

As with Joseph, he checks all but 1 of the boxes I laid out multiple times that recent history has shown lead to rookie HCs having sustained success.

- He's going to a team that it's excellent management.
- He's not being asked to make player acquisitions and has an elite GM above him.
- Numerous reports state he's a leader of men that knows how to motivate.
- He isn't considered an offensive or defensive genius and will run an entire team while letting his coaches.
- He doesn't have special teams experience, but does have experience on both sides of the ball having played offense in college.
- He's shown an ability to adapt. Has worked under multiple HCs and DCs and ran both 3/4 and 4/3 defenses. He also changed positions when entering the NFL in order to make it in the league.
- He doesn't seem to have an ego to the point that it's his way or the highway.
- He's willing to surround himself with talented coordinators.

Those are the traits that John Harbaugh and Mike Tomlin possess which is why they've survived longer than 99% of rookie HCs in this league.
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broncosfan07


Joined: 21 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah Toub would've been my first choice but just glad it's not Shanahan.
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