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Raiders not retaining OC Musgave; Promoting QB Coach Downing
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OakRaiders3828


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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Location: Lehigh Valley
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love how every time the Raiders make a move they're deemed as a joke or incompetent franchise. It's like people refuse to admit that they're headed in the right direction or they just still think it's 2007.
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91jmay


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's more than fair to question/criticise this move, it might end up backfiring badly but trying to link it to outdated critiques of Raiders is very strange.
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dawsonleery


Joined: 31 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly when you have a franchise QB in place it doesn't matter who your OC is. I remember when Raiders hired Bill Musgrave we were being bashed by everyone. He came to Oakland with horrible rep. He just happened to land in a spot with Derek Carr which saved Musgraves career. Not to mention Raiders have a young coach in Todd Downing who is highly coveted around the league. Del Rio didn't want to lose him.
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MrOaktown_56


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 7580
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TitanLegend wrote:
91jmay wrote:
Again, learn to read. I said Musgrave did a decent job, he produced the minimum level he should have with the talent available to him. He isn't a McDaniels who can create O with backup QBs, he can't really scheme up a dominant run game. He didn't elevate the O and only held them back in small portions. I was fine with keeping him, i'm fine with letting him go.

Keep lying about me hating him though. It just underscores your lack of argument.

The Raiders also did not have a top 3 O though.


Producing 27 pgg(which would tie you for 4th with Green Bay, .6 behind New England for 3rd) is the bare minimum? Expectations are your problem. If you wanna be pushy about it and make it top 5 instead of top 3 you can, but it's not really a relevant talking point. The point is you scored points at an elite level. Same level that teams being QB'd by Tom Brady, Drew Brees, MVP-Matt Ryan and Aaron Rodgers. And Carr isn't as good as 3 of those QBs are(not a knock on Carr so much as it is just how good Brady/Brees/Rodgers are), and isn't as good as Ryan has played this season. And you've got WRs who drop passes like it's their job.

And still, pretty much 27ppg with a healthy Carr.

McDaniels can create offense with backup QBs? I mean he produced some offense with Garroppolo I guess, but he was a 2nd round pick and a guy a bunch of teams were interested in as their starting QB even before this season, so that's stretching the definition a bit. I do like McDaniels as an OC but I'm not sure the "he's so much better cause look at what he did with Jimmy" is a great take, but eh. You look at what he did in St Louis(crap) and Denver(crap), and it's another example of yeah, it requires really good players to have a really good unit on either side of the ball.

Rarely do you see a coordinator take a team/unit with little or average talent and make it even good, much less great. Finding someone who can utilize your talent correctly is key. No offensive coordinator is perfect(or coach period), but when you get production at that level of out someone, moving on from them is a questionable move at it's absolute best.

Look at a guy like Kyle Shanahan who is being praised as Jesus right now because he has Atlanta playing at an extremely high level, but just last year Matt Ryan played arguably his worst season ever and the Atlanta offense struggled as a whole. Look at his Redskins tenure outside of RG3's rookie phenom year and it looks bad.

If you have a guy that takes great talent and produces great results, firing him is stupid. You can't reasonably ask for more than what the Radiers offense produced this season. You have about 1, sometimes 2 offenses a season that cracks that 30 ppg barrier(and that's usually a team QB'd by an elite QB or is having an elite season, Atlanta this year, Carolina/Ari last year, Packers/Broncos year before that, etc)

I'm just amazed at the ineptitude of franchises that make moves like this. That say what Norton did on defense was ok(and I want to stress again how much talent that Oakland defense has..not a perfect unit, but a ton of talent), but what Musgrave did on offense was not.

If you fire both of them I'm still heavily questioning the move to get rid of Musgrave but at least you're not holding some kind of double standard. When you do what Jack Del Rio has just done though?

That's indefensible, I don't care what your opinion of Musgrave is.


I'm not gonna argue on ken, but on musgrave it was either keeping him or Downing and we made a good decision there.

We had a top 5 qb (only this year), a top 3 OL, a very good overall pass catching backfield/receiver corps, and didn't play a very hard schedule.

If you watch the games, not going just off of pure statistics, you'll see that Musgrave wasn't a superb coordinator by any stretch of the imagination.

There's a good chance as well that Musgrave could have regressed like he has in previous places once teams figured out some of his tendencies and favorite playcalls. There's a reason he's bounced around the league.
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MrOaktown_56


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TitanLegend wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
TitanLegend wrote:
So you fire a guy(or don't renew the contract of a guy, whatever) who produced a top 5/top 3 offense with a healthy Carr, but keep the DC who produced the joke that is the Raiders defense despite all the talent on it? Laughing

Just when you think maybe Jack Del Rio gets it as a head coach, stuff like this happens. Just as clueless as he was in Jacksonville.


Keeping our DC was bad, but you're clueless if you think Musgrave was the reason for the Raider's success. Our qb coach Downing had 3 or 4 other OC offers and we chose to keep him and keep some continuity with the old playbook while getting rid of a coordinator who lacked awareness with his play calls at times and get to keep the good plays that he has available.


I'm clueless if I think the offensive coordinator who calls the plays is at least partially responsible for the offense's success?

uwotm8?

You can make all the complaints about Musgrave that you want, fact of the matter is the offense was scoring nearly 30 ppg with a healthy Carr. And he was fired.

Sounds to me like he had far more good plays than bad. You think some guy who has never been a coordinator is going to come in and be better than a top 3 offense(with healthy Carr) based off of what?

You scored 27 or more points in 9 of the 11 games before Carr's injury(counting the Carolina game since it was the game he got injured in, but eh).

Good luck to your new OC given this fanbases retardedly high expectations. 27 points in over 80% of your games isn't good enough.

Lemme guess you guys would have scored 50ppg without Musgrave holding you down? Laughing


Your strawman is incredible.

Point blank, I'd take Downing over Musgrave going forward, solely based on how Carr was able to improve from year 1 to year 2 and year 2 to year 3 with him. Carr has acknowledged his very good relationship with Downing and IMO it held more weight than the FO was wiling to acknowledge.

I'm also sure that the performances in the last two weeks have something to do with it as well. Sure, having mediocre to bad qb play hurts, but averaging 10 points a game in the last two weeks is truly awful and Musgrave's play calling regressed heavily, fair or not.
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Goff and Gurley are the worst QB-RB combo in history lmfao


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daineraider


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oregon Ducks wrote:
lmao! What a joke of a franchise. I'm guessing Musgrave goes on to become a more successful HC than Of the River can ever hope to be.


Considering every Raider post from you is bashing them I wouldn't expect anything less. You are a joke of an NFL poster. NCAA not so bad when you aren't talking about Oregon because you treat them like they are Bama. Maybe stick to what you know which obviously isn't the Raiders being all you do is bash them.
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RaiderFanSD


Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Posts: 1074
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People knocked us when we hired him, knocking us for not retaining him. He wasnt good anywhere else, only difference is he had Carr here. As long as we got that guy, we're fine. Looked like Peyton Manning out there at times with the audibles.

And that Oregon guy is hilarious. You can sense the envy in his posts about the Raiders.
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Jakuvious


Joined: 06 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do think it's probably a good move to drop Musgrave. It was clear that the offense's success was a pure product of talent, not play calling or scheme. I'm not sure that the replacement is really ideal though. Firing a guy and then promoting one of his underlings isn't normally something that's going to lead to progress/change. It normally just leads to more of the same. With potentially lower quality due to inexperience. I would think if they were dumping Musgrave they would've gone outside the organization to someone with a history of success, particularly given that the Raiders now have the kind of talent and staff to actually attract positive contributors at a spot like that.

The offense will be fine. The talent is still there, so it would take a really horrendous OC for it to not be fine. It just doesn't seem like a progress making kind of move.
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BullsonParade


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How long before the new OC is put under the bus? 1 year? 2 years?
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Nuke


Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every time I see someone criticize play calling I automatically assume they know next to nothing about football.
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oakdb36


Joined: 01 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was Musgrave's 5th OC opportunity in the NFL and it never lasted more than 2 years. Maybe he's not that good...
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BroncoSojia


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't mind him joining the Broncos as an OC. He actually played here and backed up Elway for few years.
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Malik


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All offensive playcalling should be done exactly like how I play Madden!
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Chiefer


Joined: 19 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why keep the defensive coordinator though?
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Mr Raider


Joined: 25 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
I do think it's probably a good move to drop Musgrave. It was clear that the offense's success was a pure product of talent, not play calling or scheme. I'm not sure that the replacement is really ideal though. Firing a guy and then promoting one of his underlings isn't normally something that's going to lead to progress/change. It normally just leads to more of the same. With potentially lower quality due to inexperience. I would think if they were dumping Musgrave they would've gone outside the organization to someone with a history of success, particularly given that the Raiders now have the kind of talent and staff to actually attract positive contributors at a spot like that.

The offense will be fine. The talent is still there, so it would take a really horrendous OC for it to not be fine. It just doesn't seem like a progress making kind of move.


I agree with this. Musgrave was the OC of a statistically very good offense so it comes across as questionable to people that didn't actually watch, but a franchise QB is going to make your offense productive, especially with a top 3 OL, top 3 WR duo, and a trio of capable backa. I'm not saying I would have been heated if he was retained, but I'm not losing sleep over losing Bill Musgrave.

I don't mind the in house replacement though. Downing strikes me as a real up and comer. I think someone would have hired him as an OC because of his role in DC's development. Carr gushes about him regularly and the relationship they have. He's probably more in touch then any new comer would have been on Carr's strengths, weaknesses, thing he likes to run, things he doesnt, etc. That may help balance out the inexperience. And we're not asking DC to learn a whole new offensive concept for the 2nd time in 4 years. We keep a similar system with some of the bad thrown out, and the good featured more. That's the hope anyway. Though there should be some expected growing pains. Musgrave at this point is what he is, Downing is an unknown that they must believe has a much higher ceiling. It could backfire for sure, but at the end of the day talent often dictates just how good a coordinator looks.

It's the same reason KNJ gets so much hate, and granted I probably would have let him go as well, and it's confusing to let the OC of a good offense go and keep the DC of a bad defense, but if we're honest the Raider defense lacks talent. Khalil Mack is a great focal point obviously, Bruce Irvin is a nice complimentary player, Karl Joseph is a keeper, David Amerson can have a role on a good defense, but not the top corner. Mario Edwards Jr and Aldon would infuse some serious talent but to this point neither guy can be relied on and neither guy was a factor this year. Nobody on our LB core is a starter on an above average defense. Reggie Nelson is good for some turnovers but blows assignments and limits a defense because of his lack of range anymore. I mean there is a real argument that Karl Joseph was our second or third best defensive player and he missed the last 4 games with an injury and didn't play the first couple games either because they were easing him in or the coaches blew it, so our second or third best defensive player didn't play in 6 or so games essentially and he was a rookie DB. In an ideal world Bruce Irvin is your third or fourth best defensive player on a good defense capable of wimming playoff games. If we get Aldon and MEJ back for a full season that could be the case, but we'd still need talent at LB. If we have those guys and add some depth in free agency and the draft I think we'll have a better ability to judge Norton Jr and his scheme. If it doesn't improve next season he's surely gone.
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