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Raiders not retaining OC Musgave; Promoting QB Coach Downing
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91jmay


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 29946
Location: Wonderland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oregon Ducks wrote:
lmao! What a joke of a franchise. I'm guessing Musgrave goes on to become a more successful HC than Of the River can ever hope to be.

HC Laughing Laughing

Unless some nothing college programme is hiring or a high school team there is no chance that is happening.
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TitanLegend


Joined: 18 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOaktown_56 wrote:
TitanLegend wrote:
So you fire a guy(or don't renew the contract of a guy, whatever) who produced a top 5/top 3 offense with a healthy Carr, but keep the DC who produced the joke that is the Raiders defense despite all the talent on it? Laughing

Just when you think maybe Jack Del Rio gets it as a head coach, stuff like this happens. Just as clueless as he was in Jacksonville.


Keeping our DC was bad, but you're clueless if you think Musgrave was the reason for the Raider's success. Our qb coach Downing had 3 or 4 other OC offers and we chose to keep him and keep some continuity with the old playbook while getting rid of a coordinator who lacked awareness with his play calls at times and get to keep the good plays that he has available.


I'm clueless if I think the offensive coordinator who calls the plays is at least partially responsible for the offense's success?

uwotm8?

You can make all the complaints about Musgrave that you want, fact of the matter is the offense was scoring nearly 30 ppg with a healthy Carr. And he was fired.

Sounds to me like he had far more good plays than bad. You think some guy who has never been a coordinator is going to come in and be better than a top 3 offense(with healthy Carr) based off of what?

You scored 27 or more points in 9 of the 11 games before Carr's injury(counting the Carolina game since it was the game he got injured in, but eh).

Good luck to your new OC given this fanbases retardedly high expectations. 27 points in over 80% of your games isn't good enough.

Lemme guess you guys would have scored 50ppg without Musgrave holding you down? Laughing
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91jmay


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Typical clown who has never watched the games and comments. The issue with Musgrave was during periods of the game he would go super conservative and let the opposition back into the game. Carr and Del Rio mentioned it in press conferences during the year as a frustrating factor. It was part of the reason a lot of our games where close was due to conservative play calling.

When we went to hurry up O and DC was given options to call plays/audible to one of 3 plays we were a much better O.

Musgrave did a decent job this year, but if he was such an offensive genius why did the O only play average at best last year? It's almost like the talent level change and the QB was a year more experienced Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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TitanLegend


Joined: 18 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
Typical clown who has never watched the games and comments. The issue with Musgrave was during periods of the game he would go super conservative and let the opposition back into the game. Carr and Del Rio mentioned it in press conferences during the year as a frustrating factor. It was part of the reason a lot of our games where close was due to conservative play calling.

When we went to hurry up O and DC was given options to call plays/audible to one of 3 plays we were a much better O.

Musgrave did a decent job this year, but if he was such an offensive genius why did the O only play average at best last year? It's almost like the talent level change and the QB was a year more experienced Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


You mean..having a top offense requires solid talent and a good QB?

You've gotta be kidding me, I'm so blown away by that piece of information!!!!111111

Lets look at the other top 10 offenses(PPG).

Falcons - Ryan/Julio/Solid O-line/Good RBs
Saints - Brees/Solid o-line/makes his receivers better than they are but has some decent options
Patriots - Brady is the GOAT/Bennett/Blount/Better OL play this year
Packers - Rodgers/Cobb/Nelson/O-line is really nice in pass pro
Cowboys - Dak/Elliot/Best o-line in NFL/Dez/Witten(though he's not as good as he once was)
Cardinals - Palmer(not great, but you can do worse)/Johnson/Fitz
Colts - Luck/Hilton/Doyle/Dorsett/Gore isn't bad
Chargers - Rivers/Gates/Gordon pre injury/Henry
Bills - Tyrod(same as Palmer)/McCoy/Really good run blocking o-line
Steelers - Ben/Bell/Brown/Good o-line

Bills/Steelers tied for 10th in OPPG.

So what is the common theme here? Every team has good QB play(that might be stretching the term a bit of Buffalo and Arizona, but like I said you can do a lot worse than who they have at QB, and they've got fantastic RBs to rely on instead). Most teams have at least decent o-line play(Cards, Chargers and Colts being the exceptions, albeit their schemes/QBs really hurt their o-lines stats in the Cards/Colts case, and injuries kill an already iffy line for SD).

Musgrave was given a lot of talent and produced like a top 3 offense with said talent, so he did his job. So the complaint here is what, exactly? That he did his job?

And it's just compounded and made even extra stupid because you kept the coordinator that was given so much talent on defense, similar to what Musgrave did on offense and did the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Musgrave did.

JDR is a joke. If conservative play calling gets you 27ppg, then you take conservative play calling.

The whole "lololol you didn't watch the games" crap is so old, and is so irrelevant here because #1 I've watched the entirety of 6 Raiders games this season(2 of them being the condensed games though), and the statistics do not lie when they're this gaudy, this consistently.

This "I hate my OC even though he's extremely successful" is so old among football fans and so irritating.
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OakRaiders3828


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He wasn't fired bro
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OakRaiders3828


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oregon Ducks wrote:
lmao! What a joke of a franchise. I'm guessing Musgrave goes on to become a more successful HC than Of the River can ever hope to be.


Laughing

A fan of the chargers talking about joke franchises. Classic
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TitanLegend


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
He wasn't fired bro


Read my first post in the thread. Not wanting him back is pretty much the exact same thing as firing him, just different wording.
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91jmay


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, learn to read. I said Musgrave did a decent job, he produced the minimum level he should have with the talent available to him. He isn't a McDaniels who can create O with backup QBs, he can't really scheme up a dominant run game. He didn't elevate the O and only held them back in small portions. I was fine with keeping him, i'm fine with letting him go.

Keep lying about me hating him though. It just underscores your lack of argument.

The Raiders also did not have a top 3 O though.
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OakRaiders3828


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teams do this more than people think. His contract was up and we had an up and coming OC groomed on the staff that we didn't want to lose.

I think we would've resigned him if Downing wasn't getting calls
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Last edited by OakRaiders3828 on Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think they would have fired Musgrave if they had to. But his contract expired. So they chose to promote Downing, probably because they liked what they saw from him the last 2 years. Nobody here knows what he can do at OC because he has never been one. Maybe we can wait until at least his 1st game to judge him.

And if Norton's contract was up, i doubt they would have re-signed him. They chose to let it play out. I can't say that's something i agree with.
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Trentwannabe


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the pleasure of meeting Downing a few years back when he was in Buffalo.

Really cool guy and I can see him being a guy players want to play for,
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TitanLegend


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
Again, learn to read. I said Musgrave did a decent job, he produced the minimum level he should have with the talent available to him. He isn't a McDaniels who can create O with backup QBs, he can't really scheme up a dominant run game. He didn't elevate the O and only held them back in small portions. I was fine with keeping him, i'm fine with letting him go.

Keep lying about me hating him though. It just underscores your lack of argument.

The Raiders also did not have a top 3 O though.


Producing 27 pgg(which would tie you for 4th with Green Bay, .6 behind New England for 3rd) is the bare minimum? Expectations are your problem. If you wanna be pushy about it and make it top 5 instead of top 3 you can, but it's not really a relevant talking point. The point is you scored points at an elite level. Same level that teams being QB'd by Tom Brady, Drew Brees, MVP-Matt Ryan and Aaron Rodgers. And Carr isn't as good as 3 of those QBs are(not a knock on Carr so much as it is just how good Brady/Brees/Rodgers are), and isn't as good as Ryan has played this season. And you've got WRs who drop passes like it's their job.

And still, pretty much 27ppg with a healthy Carr.

McDaniels can create offense with backup QBs? I mean he produced some offense with Garroppolo I guess, but he was a 2nd round pick and a guy a bunch of teams were interested in as their starting QB even before this season, so that's stretching the definition a bit. I do like McDaniels as an OC but I'm not sure the "he's so much better cause look at what he did with Jimmy" is a great take, but eh. You look at what he did in St Louis(crap) and Denver(crap), and it's another example of yeah, it requires really good players to have a really good unit on either side of the ball.

Rarely do you see a coordinator take a team/unit with little or average talent and make it even good, much less great. Finding someone who can utilize your talent correctly is key. No offensive coordinator is perfect(or coach period), but when you get production at that level of out someone, moving on from them is a questionable move at it's absolute best.

Look at a guy like Kyle Shanahan who is being praised as Jesus right now because he has Atlanta playing at an extremely high level, but just last year Matt Ryan played arguably his worst season ever and the Atlanta offense struggled as a whole. Look at his Redskins tenure outside of RG3's rookie phenom year and it looks bad.

If you have a guy that takes great talent and produces great results, firing him is stupid. You can't reasonably ask for more than what the Radiers offense produced this season. You have about 1, sometimes 2 offenses a season that cracks that 30 ppg barrier(and that's usually a team QB'd by an elite QB or is having an elite season, Atlanta this year, Carolina/Ari last year, Packers/Broncos year before that, etc)

I'm just amazed at the ineptitude of franchises that make moves like this. That say what Norton did on defense was ok(and I want to stress again how much talent that Oakland defense has..not a perfect unit, but a ton of talent), but what Musgrave did on offense was not.

If you fire both of them I'm still heavily questioning the move to get rid of Musgrave but at least you're not holding some kind of double standard. When you do what Jack Del Rio has just done though?

That's indefensible, I don't care what your opinion of Musgrave is.
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OakRaiders3828


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has nothing to do with an inept franchise that loves turnover or anything to do with ken norton (defense doesn't have the level of talent you're claiming) this has to do with having a young up and coming OC that is extremely close with our franchise QB that we chose to promote instead of retaining Musgrave so that we wouldn't lose him.

Clearly he was seen as more valuable, and I think they know a bit more than some titans fan. More than likely most of the terminology and concepts will be the same.
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91jmay


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's very simple. The Raiders wanted to keep Downing who was getting interview requests over Musgrave who they feel is expendable given his previous OC stints. It is interesting you bring up McDaniels past failings but don't do the same for Musgrave. Very interesting.

Musgrave did a decent job this year, but you are ignoring his career body of work for one season where he had elite talent. 27 PPG is what the O should be scoring, and it is a gamble on Downing however given how highly he is thought of in the locker room losing him would be a very detrimental to Carr which is really the main factor in any decision.

KNJ should be fired, I agree there. The Raiders talent on D is also overrated though by you in a very odd way. They have Mack, Irvin who is solid plus very ordinary players on D-Line given Mario Edwards + Aldon where basically out all year, nobody of note at LBer other than Perry Riley who is solid, Joseph playing well at SS and Nelson one of the worst in the league at FS. Amerson is a good CB, Smith has floated between average and terrible this year. Depth also a huge issue in the secondary. D needs a lot of players across the board.
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CrashMan510


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TitanLegend wrote:
91jmay wrote:
Typical clown who has never watched the games and comments. The issue with Musgrave was during periods of the game he would go super conservative and let the opposition back into the game. Carr and Del Rio mentioned it in press conferences during the year as a frustrating factor. It was part of the reason a lot of our games where close was due to conservative play calling.

When we went to hurry up O and DC was given options to call plays/audible to one of 3 plays we were a much better O.

Musgrave did a decent job this year, but if he was such an offensive genius why did the O only play average at best last year? It's almost like the talent level change and the QB was a year more experienced Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


doesnt watch raider games.


goody, statistics. go get gamepass, watch every game the last 2 years, and keep telling me how great hes done. Hes mediocre. The colts game where derek went down, the broncos game this year, and the charger/jets/steelers game last year where his best. He actually had feel for the game, he was actually aggressive with the play calling and the team was executing.

This year especially, the team had so many games where the game would be close, then the raider offense would get in a rhythm, start rolling, take a td lead......then immediately after that great drive the offense would go full conservative and the 3 and outs would start raining(damn well knowing how bad our defense was this year). Then when the team starts loosing/blowing the lead and the urgency comes, derek would turn the switch on, go no huddle, and win the game.

----and the garbage bubble screen that only worked 1 game in his 2 years here
---- the retarded shotgun runs all of 2015 with murray
---- not getting amari cooper involved late this year


Musgraves contract was up, and he wasn't worth a contract extension, especially with Downing getting calls for bigger jobs. Theres a reason why musgrave has bounced around the league.

idk whats going to change this year, but hopefully this means Carr starts going full Peyton and starts running the offense more
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