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Rogerthat


Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 15
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epyon wrote:
Rogerthat wrote:
I do love the Watson "archer" touchdown celebration and he does the dab. Definitely the best touchdown celebration of the QB in the draft.


That's a penalty and a fine in the NFL, fwiw

The "Archer" thing, not the "dab" thing... because it's simulating weapons and implying violence, and some SJW got their panties in a bunch over it.

Sadly... I'm not even kidding...

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/josh-normans-fake-bow-and-arrow-celebration-leads-to-five-figure-fine/



They took our jobs.
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G08


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerthat wrote:
Epyon wrote:
Rogerthat wrote:
I do love the Watson "archer" touchdown celebration and he does the dab. Definitely the best touchdown celebration of the QB in the draft.


That's a penalty and a fine in the NFL, fwiw

The "Archer" thing, not the "dab" thing... because it's simulating weapons and implying violence, and some SJW got their panties in a bunch over it.

Sadly... I'm not even kidding...

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/josh-normans-fake-bow-and-arrow-celebration-leads-to-five-figure-fine/



They took our jobs.


BACK TO THE PILE!! Laughing
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft

jrry32 wrote:
apples

When the defense allows 20 pts or fewer, the Cutler-led Bears were 36-7


Last edited by G08 on Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Epyon


Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 327
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
IotaNet wrote:
G08 wrote:
My struggle was that it was the #3 overall pick. If I told you we had the #10 pick, I think you'd feel a lot better ...
EXACTLY!

In my mind, the #3 pick ought to be a sure thing -- or as close to a sure thing as exists in the draft. And Watson isn't it. You point is well taken however, about trusting Pace and his staff to make the call. So far, he's been a very good evaluator of talent.

EDIT: I decided to go back and see what the #3 picks have been over the past 10 years. With the given that nobody has a crystal ball, how do we project Watson to compare with this list?

2007: Joe Thomas
2008: Matt Ryan
2009: Tyson Jackson
2010: Gerald McCoy
2011: Marcell Dareus
2012: Trent Richardson
2013: Dion Jordan
2014: Blake Bortles
2015: Dante Fowler
2016: Joey Bosa

What near sure thing do you see? How do you know Allen won't be Tyson Jackson instead of Dareus or McCoy? How do you know Hooker or Adams won't be Michael Huff? "Sure things" bust too. Look at Tony Mandarich or Robert Gallery. Pace will be defined by the pick for sure whether he takes a QB or passes on a QB. This is the one. Pace is a proven scouting professional who has literally spent months researching QBs for this exact pick. If he thinks Watson is worthy then who am I to say he's wrong? Because I think Jonathan Allen is less risky? Yeah, he is. But the likelihood he's better than Akiem Hicks (who we got in the 2nd tier of FA) is not very high. Every 1st round pick is important. To me the part of picking 3rd is that you get the opportunity to get the top guy at a premium position. You don't get that picking 12th or 9th. 5T isn't a premium position to me so I'm not taking one 3rd. To me that's QB, LT or edge rusher, or MAYBE corner if you're looking at Charles Woodson Ron Deion Sanders. That's it. There isn't a worthy CB or LT this year and only one edge rusher, so for me it's QB or trade down.

As far as Watson goes, I see his floor as Tyrod Taylor and his ceiling as Russell Wilson. If he ends up Taylor and not Wilson then it's a disappointment but it's not crippling, and if he's Wilson then we are set at QB until about 2030. To me that's a guy worthy of the 3rd pick without question.


I don't think Taylor and Wilson are all that far off from one another talent wise, tbh, but that could just be me... And I think Taylor would be an ideal "veteran" to bring in for either Watson or Mahomes since Taylor also has some mobility... and we could have a unified offensive scheme regardless of who started.

Now then, I like Russell Wilson, and Russell Wilson is a better QB than what we have on the Bears, but I -REALLY- don't want Watson if Russell Wilson is all he can be (and I think Wilson <--->Watson really is an ideal comparison).... Wilson needed a positively stacked Seattle team to get to the Superbowl.

Look at the past 10 years of Super Bowl Games even, and count the number of QBs in them that aren't elite:

2006 Manning vs Grossman
(Grossman only made it with an elite defense)

2007 Eli vs Brady
Eli was playing out of his damn mind

2008 Rothlesburger vs Warner

2009 Brees vs Manning

2010 Rodgers vs Rothlesburger

2011 Flacco vs Kaepernick
(both absolutely stacked teams, and top 5 defenses... and Flacco was playing very well)

2012 Eli vs Brady 2

2013 Wilson vs Manning
(Wilson had a top 10 defense of all time, and Peyton Manning was still elite)

2014 Brady vs Wilson
(Wilson still had a top 10 defense of all time)

2015 Manning vs Cam
(Both teams had absolutely elite defenses)


That's 20 quarterbacks and the only non elite ones are:

Grossman, Wilson, Cam, and Kaep (arguably you could add the 2016 Peyton Manning to that).... and all of those QBs had absurdly stacked teams, and top 5 defenses to do it with.... I'd add that of those 4 names, they made 5 total appearances and only won once.


Getting back to the point, if Watson's ceiling is Russell Wilson, then I don't want him at all, because that's not someone you can even get to the Superbowl with, without stacking the living hell out of the rest of your squad... and I don't want to be a squad constantly hanging around as a gatekeeper, but never quite being good enough to challenge for the title. Give me elite upside, even if it comes at higher risk.... Give me Mahomes, and let's go for some rings, instead of wildcard spots.


EDIT: Oh.... and something else I thought about.... How many QBs on that list would you say have questions about their arm strength?
Maybe Peyton and Wilson are pretty much the only two.... and both had top 10 -all time- defenses to win the Superbowl.... -Everyone else- had elite arm strength...
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TankWilliams


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epyon, you are massively underrating Russell Wilson.
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AZBearsFan


Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 13030
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russell Wilson got to the SB twice with a loaded DEFENSE. He's had a lousy OL most of his tenure and has never had an elite WR at his disposal. Russell Wilson also has the second highest Career QB Rating in the history of the league.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

So there's that too.
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Epyon


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
Russell Wilson got to the SB twice with a loaded DEFENSE. He's had a lousy OL most of his tenure and has never had an elite WR at his disposal. Russell Wilson also has the second highest Career QB Rating in the history of the league.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

So there's that too.


It wasn't just an elite defense... it was a top 10 of all time defense... Grossman made it to the Superbowl under similar circumstances for us. I'd add that the elite defense part was true for basically all the non elite QBs.

I will also add, that Wilson also had an elite running game working in his favor as well.

The trends don't lie... You really need an elite ceiling QB with a giant arm, or an absolutely mind blowing defense (and in some cases, both). I don't think Watson is that guy at all, nor do I think we have that kind of defense (nor will we if we spend first round draft picks on Russell Wilson ceiling QBs)
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AZBearsFan


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Posts: 13030
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epyon wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Russell Wilson got to the SB twice with a loaded DEFENSE. He's had a lousy OL most of his tenure and has never had an elite WR at his disposal. Russell Wilson also has the second highest Career QB Rating in the history of the league.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

So there's that too.


It wasn't just an elite defense... it was a top 10 of all time defense... Grossman made it to the Superbowl under similar circumstances for us. I'd add that the elite defense part was true for basically all the non elite QBs.

I will also add, that Wilson also had an elite running game working in his favor as well.

The trends don't lie... You really need an elite ceiling QB with a giant arm, or an absolutely mind blowing defense (and in some cases, both). I don't think Watson is that guy at all, nor do I think we have that kind of defense (nor will we if we spend first round draft picks on Russell Wilson ceiling QBs)

You're really going to argue that Wilson isn't an elite QB? 2nd ALL TIME in QB rating? 3rd ALL TIME in TD/INT ratio? If that's not elite, what IS elite? Setting aside this year when a hobbled all year Wilson was basically running a one-dimensional offense (their leading rusher had < 500 yards), Seattle's OFFENSE ranked 9th, 8th, 10th and 4th in points scored from 2012-2015. Their defense is great without question but they're winning 27-13 most weeks, not 13-10. Seattle's rush offense ranks at the top of the league every year because Wilson adds another 500+ rush yards to their total himself (a skill Watson also possesses).

If you're not sold on Watson then that's fine but just say that. To say you don't want to take Watson because his ceiling might ONLY be as high as a guy who 5 years into his career who is putting up all time great level efficiency numbers is just ludicrous.
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Epyon


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
Epyon wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Russell Wilson got to the SB twice with a loaded DEFENSE. He's had a lousy OL most of his tenure and has never had an elite WR at his disposal. Russell Wilson also has the second highest Career QB Rating in the history of the league.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

So there's that too.


It wasn't just an elite defense... it was a top 10 of all time defense... Grossman made it to the Superbowl under similar circumstances for us. I'd add that the elite defense part was true for basically all the non elite QBs.

I will also add, that Wilson also had an elite running game working in his favor as well.

The trends don't lie... You really need an elite ceiling QB with a giant arm, or an absolutely mind blowing defense (and in some cases, both). I don't think Watson is that guy at all, nor do I think we have that kind of defense (nor will we if we spend first round draft picks on Russell Wilson ceiling QBs)

You're really going to argue that Wilson isn't an elite QB? 2nd ALL TIME in QB rating? 3rd ALL TIME in TD/INT ratio? If that's not elite, what IS elite? Setting aside this year when a hobbled all year Wilson was basically running a one-dimensional offense (their leading rusher had < 500 yards), Seattle's OFFENSE ranked 9th, 8th, 10th and 4th in points scored from 2012-2015. Their defense is great without question but they're winning 27-13 most weeks, not 13-10. Seattle's rush offense ranks at the top of the league every year because Wilson adds another 500+ rush yards to their total himself (a skill Watson also possesses).

If you're not sold on Watson then that's fine but just say that. To say you don't want to take Watson because his ceiling might ONLY be as high as a guy who 5 years into his career who is putting up all time great level efficiency numbers is just ludicrous.



Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Big Ben, Flacco, Luck, Stafford, Matt Ryan, Rivers, Mariota, Carr, and Winston are all QBs I'd take before Wilson if given absolute choice.... That's like a third of the League... Even if you argued for half of them (like Winston and Mariota are still more potential than true player so far, but both have more upside than Wilson)... where exactly do you draw the line of -elite- at? Hell, Brees/Brady/Rogers/Big Ben alone is more than 10%. of the starting 32 QBs!

How on earth could I rate a QB as elite when he's not even in my top 10 of active players (I say active because Peyton would obviously also be on the list if we counted any players during Wilsons career)?
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Sugashane


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epyon wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Russell Wilson got to the SB twice with a loaded DEFENSE. He's had a lousy OL most of his tenure and has never had an elite WR at his disposal. Russell Wilson also has the second highest Career QB Rating in the history of the league.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

So there's that too.


It wasn't just an elite defense... it was a top 10 of all time defense... Grossman made it to the Superbowl under similar circumstances for us. I'd add that the elite defense part was true for basically all the non elite QBs.

I will also add, that Wilson also had an elite running game working in his favor as well.

The trends don't lie... You really need an elite ceiling QB with a giant arm, or an absolutely mind blowing defense (and in some cases, both). I don't think Watson is that guy at all, nor do I think we have that kind of defense (nor will we if we spend first round draft picks on Russell Wilson ceiling QBs)


There have been many elite running games and defenses, Russell still takes care of the ball and produces better than almost any QB to ever play when stacked against QBs with either or both. If he plays another 5 years and matches the last 5 years' stats, even if never seeing another playoff game, he is walking into the HoF as a first ballot. Hell look at his stats compared to Brady. Brady has more TDs and yards, but it is because of the volume of throws he makes. On a career average, Wilson throws more TDs per every 100 throws than Brady (even with the ridiculous years Brady has had factored in), has a better YPA, a better completion percentage, all while almost matching him for as few INTs.

That is worth several top overall picks, not just a 3rd overall. It is that simple.
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Epyon


Joined: 02 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sugashane wrote:
Epyon wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Russell Wilson got to the SB twice with a loaded DEFENSE. He's had a lousy OL most of his tenure and has never had an elite WR at his disposal. Russell Wilson also has the second highest Career QB Rating in the history of the league.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

So there's that too.


It wasn't just an elite defense... it was a top 10 of all time defense... Grossman made it to the Superbowl under similar circumstances for us. I'd add that the elite defense part was true for basically all the non elite QBs.

I will also add, that Wilson also had an elite running game working in his favor as well.

The trends don't lie... You really need an elite ceiling QB with a giant arm, or an absolutely mind blowing defense (and in some cases, both). I don't think Watson is that guy at all, nor do I think we have that kind of defense (nor will we if we spend first round draft picks on Russell Wilson ceiling QBs)


There have been many elite running games and defenses, Russell still takes care of the ball and produces better than almost any QB to ever play when stacked against QBs with either or both. If he plays another 5 years and matches the last 5 years' stats, even if never seeing another playoff game, he is walking into the HoF as a first ballot. Hell look at his stats compared to Brady. Brady has more TDs and yards, but it is because of the volume of throws he makes. On a career average, Wilson throws more TDs per every 100 throws than Brady (even with the ridiculous years Brady has had factored in), has a better YPA, a better completion percentage, all while almost matching him for as few INTs.

That is worth several top overall picks, not just a 3rd overall. It is that simple.


I like stats, as stats tend to be objective, but this is a case where stats don't tell you the whole story.

For example, Wilson has a higher career QBR than Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Kurt Warner, and Tom Brady..... and I don't believe for a single second that you'd pick Russel Wilson anywhere but dead last of just those names, for a QB you'd rather have under center (assuming active and in primes).

The reason for that is really really simple... They're quarterbacks that can carry a team, and Russell Wilson isn't. You could put Tom Brady on Cleveland, and make them a playoff franchise overnight... If Russell Wilson had been drafted by Cleveland, you wouldn't even remember his name by now.

Russell Wilson didn't win a Superbowl because he's an elite QB, he won a Superbowl by being a game manager who rode his defense and run game. Now maybe "game manager" is a bit unfair, since it's mostly used as a pejorative roughly meaning "QB that sucks" when it's supposed to be more along the lines of "QB that isn't going to hurt us" but the intended meaning is kind of his role. He's a good, maybe even great game manager, and it's even arguable that he's surpassed the typical "game manager" label by being able to find other ways to contribute, such as with his legs as a runner... but the end result is that his team's don't win because he carries them, they win because he can carry himself enough to not be dead weight, and maybe contribute a little in chunks, while his playmakers go out and win the game.

That's exactly the kind of QB Watson is right now as well. Clemson didn't win that game because of Deshaun Watson, they won that game because their Defense shut Bama the hell down (or well, broke the Bama running back's leg), and the Clemson receivers made some spectacular catches.

It takes a significantly more talented roster to win the Superbowl with that kind of QB under center, and even then, the trends aren't good. With Watson in Particular, the INT rate alone could make him a fairly dangerous gamble, and even if that doesn't the arm strength is still a concern... Wilson and Manning are still the only two QBs in the past 10 years to even play in a Superbowl without what could be a described as a pretty damn good arm.


And I realize I sound like I despise Watson (or Wilson) but the truth is I don't... Watson is still my #2 QB in the class, even after saying all of that, and I'd love to have Wilson on our team instead of literally any of the QBs we have right now... That being said, I'm just recognizing the extreme inherent difficulty of trying to win a ring with that kind of QB, particularly when there is a shot to be had on the the elite upside kind of QB I'm talking about in Mahomes. I don't yet know if he's anywhere close to Aaron Rodgers, but I do know Texas Tech was about as Cleveland Browns as you could get in College Football, and Mahomes pretty much single handedly had them on the cusp of bowl game contention.

Finally, I'd add that Watson forced his receivers to make highlight reel worthy catches to what should have been fairly easy and accurate passes..... Mahomes.... well....just watch...

https://amp.twimg.com/v/6081f5a5-d751-41cf-93f2-e24dae30f5d2
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bearsfan323


Joined: 02 Apr 2014
Posts: 2483
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epyon wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Russell Wilson got to the SB twice with a loaded DEFENSE. He's had a lousy OL most of his tenure and has never had an elite WR at his disposal. Russell Wilson also has the second highest Career QB Rating in the history of the league.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

So there's that too.


It wasn't just an elite defense... it was a top 10 of all time defense... Grossman made it to the Superbowl under similar circumstances for us. I'd add that the elite defense part was true for basically all the non elite QBs.

I will also add, that Wilson also had an elite running game working in his favor as well.

The trends don't lie... You really need an elite ceiling QB with a giant arm, or an absolutely mind blowing defense (and in some cases, both). I don't think Watson is that guy at all, nor do I think we have that kind of defense (nor will we if we spend first round draft picks on Russell Wilson ceiling QBs)

By no means am I imlying that Rex was good but I think the hate he gets is a little tiring and nonsensical. The defense had a few [inappropriate/removed] games in 2006 that he played a big part of winning, and there were games that the D played well that he also played well in. Unfortunately we all just remember the stinkers.
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pigsooie5


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

topwop1 wrote:
IotaNet wrote:
G08 wrote:
My struggle was that it was the #3 overall pick. If I told you we had the #10 pick, I think you'd feel a lot better ...
EXACTLY!

In my mind, the #3 pick ought to be a sure thing -- or as close to a sure thing as exists in the draft. And Watson isn't it. You point is well taken however, about trusting Pace and his staff to make the call. So far, he's been a very good evaluator of talent.

EDIT: I decided to go back and see what the #3 picks have been over the past 10 years. With the given that nobody has a crystal ball, how do we project Watson to compare with this list?

2007: Joe Thomas
2008: Matt Ryan
2009: Tyson Jackson
2010: Gerald McCoy
2011: Marcell Dareus
2012: Trent Richardson
2013: Dion Jordan
2014: Blake Bortles
2015: Dante Fowler
2016: Joey Bosa


A good sign is that none of the QB's taken at the #3 spot in the past 10 years are busts.

The jury of course is still out on Bortles and he did have a pretty rough 2016 season but his 2015 season was impressive. I don't think he will end up being a bust with Marrone in charge.

I heard a stat on the radio yesterday, Blake Bortles led the league in 2015 in dropped INTs. His season wasn't as good as people make it out to be. His mechanics are god awful, that low ball drop on his take back and terrible release. He is as close to a bust as you can get. After next season we won't even be having this conversation as he will be cut and become a backup.
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Sugashane


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epyon wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
Epyon wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Russell Wilson got to the SB twice with a loaded DEFENSE. He's had a lousy OL most of his tenure and has never had an elite WR at his disposal. Russell Wilson also has the second highest Career QB Rating in the history of the league.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

So there's that too.


It wasn't just an elite defense... it was a top 10 of all time defense... Grossman made it to the Superbowl under similar circumstances for us. I'd add that the elite defense part was true for basically all the non elite QBs.

I will also add, that Wilson also had an elite running game working in his favor as well.

The trends don't lie... You really need an elite ceiling QB with a giant arm, or an absolutely mind blowing defense (and in some cases, both). I don't think Watson is that guy at all, nor do I think we have that kind of defense (nor will we if we spend first round draft picks on Russell Wilson ceiling QBs)


There have been many elite running games and defenses, Russell still takes care of the ball and produces better than almost any QB to ever play when stacked against QBs with either or both. If he plays another 5 years and matches the last 5 years' stats, even if never seeing another playoff game, he is walking into the HoF as a first ballot. Hell look at his stats compared to Brady. Brady has more TDs and yards, but it is because of the volume of throws he makes. On a career average, Wilson throws more TDs per every 100 throws than Brady (even with the ridiculous years Brady has had factored in), has a better YPA, a better completion percentage, all while almost matching him for as few INTs.

That is worth several top overall picks, not just a 3rd overall. It is that simple.


I like stats, as stats tend to be objective, but this is a case where stats don't tell you the whole story.

For example, Wilson has a higher career QBR than Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Kurt Warner, and Tom Brady..... and I don't believe for a single second that you'd pick Russel Wilson anywhere but dead last of just those names, for a QB you'd rather have under center (assuming active and in primes).

The reason for that is really really simple... They're quarterbacks that can carry a team, and Russell Wilson isn't. You could put Tom Brady on Cleveland, and make them a playoff franchise overnight... If Russell Wilson had been drafted by Cleveland, you wouldn't even remember his name by now.

Russell Wilson didn't win a Superbowl because he's an elite QB, he won a Superbowl by being a game manager who rode his defense and run game. Now maybe "game manager" is a bit unfair, since it's mostly used as a pejorative roughly meaning "QB that sucks" when it's supposed to be more along the lines of "QB that isn't going to hurt us" but the intended meaning is kind of his role. He's a good, maybe even great game manager, and it's even arguable that he's surpassed the typical "game manager" label by being able to find other ways to contribute, such as with his legs as a runner... but the end result is that his team's don't win because he carries them, they win because he can carry himself enough to not be dead weight, and maybe contribute a little in chunks, while his playmakers go out and win the game.

That's exactly the kind of QB Watson is right now as well. Clemson didn't win that game because of Deshaun Watson, they won that game because their Defense shut Bama the hell down (or well, broke the Bama running back's leg), and the Clemson receivers made some spectacular catches.

It takes a significantly more talented roster to win the Superbowl with that kind of QB under center, and even then, the trends aren't good. With Watson in Particular, the INT rate alone could make him a fairly dangerous gamble, and even if that doesn't the arm strength is still a concern... Wilson and Manning are still the only two QBs in the past 10 years to even play in a Superbowl without what could be a described as a pretty damn good arm.


And I realize I sound like I despise Watson (or Wilson) but the truth is I don't... Watson is still my #2 QB in the class, even after saying all of that, and I'd love to have Wilson on our team instead of literally any of the QBs we have right now... That being said, I'm just recognizing the extreme inherent difficulty of trying to win a ring with that kind of QB, particularly when there is a shot to be had on the the elite upside kind of QB I'm talking about in Mahomes. I don't yet know if he's anywhere close to Aaron Rodgers, but I do know Texas Tech was about as Cleveland Browns as you could get in College Football, and Mahomes pretty much single handedly had them on the cusp of bowl game contention.

Finally, I'd add that Watson forced his receivers to make highlight reel worthy catches to what should have been fairly easy and accurate passes..... Mahomes.... well....just watch...

https://amp.twimg.com/v/6081f5a5-d751-41cf-93f2-e24dae30f5d2


Come on now, you're comparing him to other HoF QBs, 3 of whom will retire as top 5 QBs of all time IMO. As would be worth the top pick in any draft. That doesn't even support your argument.

As far as making great catches, we must not have watched the same games if you don't think Brady has had some amazing catches by Welker, Moss, Gronk, Hernandez, Edleman, etc. Or Manning with Harrison, Wayne, Clark, Thomas, etc. Give the WRs.credit for stellar catches, but the QBs all got the ball in their range where a catch was possible. They have far better playmakers than Wilson had, it isn't even comparable.

I understand you're concern with Watson, it will break down to coaching and personal improvement to dictate his total success, but that is any QB in this class, and really even the best prospects like Luck. I'm a huge Mahomes fan as well, but he will need every bit as much coaching up, there is no way around that.
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G08


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't bag on Watson for those throws man, those were dimes and he let his playmakers make plays.

This was in HUGE, pressure filled situation, and he didn't wilt. That's major points for me.

Also, man, that Mahomes throw was a no-look (awesome, btw) in practice.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft

jrry32 wrote:
apples

When the defense allows 20 pts or fewer, the Cutler-led Bears were 36-7
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epyon wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Epyon wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Russell Wilson got to the SB twice with a loaded DEFENSE. He's had a lousy OL most of his tenure and has never had an elite WR at his disposal. Russell Wilson also has the second highest Career QB Rating in the history of the league.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

So there's that too.


It wasn't just an elite defense... it was a top 10 of all time defense... Grossman made it to the Superbowl under similar circumstances for us. I'd add that the elite defense part was true for basically all the non elite QBs.

I will also add, that Wilson also had an elite running game working in his favor as well.

The trends don't lie... You really need an elite ceiling QB with a giant arm, or an absolutely mind blowing defense (and in some cases, both). I don't think Watson is that guy at all, nor do I think we have that kind of defense (nor will we if we spend first round draft picks on Russell Wilson ceiling QBs)

You're really going to argue that Wilson isn't an elite QB? 2nd ALL TIME in QB rating? 3rd ALL TIME in TD/INT ratio? If that's not elite, what IS elite? Setting aside this year when a hobbled all year Wilson was basically running a one-dimensional offense (their leading rusher had < 500 yards), Seattle's OFFENSE ranked 9th, 8th, 10th and 4th in points scored from 2012-2015. Their defense is great without question but they're winning 27-13 most weeks, not 13-10. Seattle's rush offense ranks at the top of the league every year because Wilson adds another 500+ rush yards to their total himself (a skill Watson also possesses).

If you're not sold on Watson then that's fine but just say that. To say you don't want to take Watson because his ceiling might ONLY be as high as a guy who 5 years into his career who is putting up all time great level efficiency numbers is just ludicrous.



Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Big Ben, Flacco, Luck, Stafford, Matt Ryan, Rivers, Mariota, Carr, and Winston are all QBs I'd take before Wilson if given absolute choice.... That's like a third of the League... Even if you argued for half of them (like Winston and Mariota are still more potential than true player so far, but both have more upside than Wilson)... where exactly do you draw the line of -elite- at? Hell, Brees/Brady/Rogers/Big Ben alone is more than 10%. of the starting 32 QBs!

How on earth could I rate a QB as elite when he's not even in my top 10 of active players (I say active because Peyton would obviously also be on the list if we counted any players during Wilsons career)?


I respect your opinion but I had a good chuckle with the bolded names.

How do you take those guys before Wilson? Do you even watch football?

I like a lot of those guys, most notably Carr and Mariota but what have they accomplished that you can definitively say that you would take them over Wilson?

As AZ mentioned Russell Wilson has proven both statistically and by winning a SB championship that he belongs among the league's current elite QB's.

Flacco, despite also winning a SB has not shown he is elite, nor have the other bolded names.

The Bears would be extremely fortunate to land a QB like Wilson because he would be without a doubt the best QB they've ever had in their franchise's history.
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