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Flaccomania


Joined: 12 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danand wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
Danand wrote:
With that philosophy, we are going to let Rick Wagner and Brandon Williams walk and take our chances on old veterans in FA and we will face the same issues as this year.


I wouldn't classify Williams as the same calibre of player as Wagner though. Brandon is elite at his position. Worth spending the money on.

Wagner, despite his #4 pass protection ranking this year, just isn't up there like that as an overall player. But he's going to get paid like he is. If Baltimore is able to get him for around the same $6 million a year on average that most of the top right tackles are making then great, bring him back. That's a good deal for a guy leading his position on the free agent market. But there are going to be a few teams with bunches of cap space. I think Rick is going to get a good chunk more than that.


I think we all know, that when it comes to the position, Brandon Williams ranks higher than on the NT list than Wagner does on the RT list.

And ofc we can't give Wagner Osemele-like-money, but at some point we have to pay guys who fills a need that has proven more difficult to replace.

If Harbaugh or anyone else speak of consistency as a reason to keep Mornhinweg, they should do the same with the offensive line which has been a revolving door with Yanda as the sole anchor.

As I see it, we have an opportunity to solidify our oline the next 3 years if we get a solution at center if we retain Wagner. That would be key to get an offense which doesn't suck or is average at best.


I don't think anyone disagrees about wanting to keep him -- it's just the money required to do so is the key factor.
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santiagomn8


Joined: 27 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
Danand wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
Danand wrote:
With that philosophy, we are going to let Rick Wagner and Brandon Williams walk and take our chances on old veterans in FA and we will face the same issues as this year.


I wouldn't classify Williams as the same calibre of player as Wagner though. Brandon is elite at his position. Worth spending the money on.

Wagner, despite his #4 pass protection ranking this year, just isn't up there like that as an overall player. But he's going to get paid like he is. If Baltimore is able to get him for around the same $6 million a year on average that most of the top right tackles are making then great, bring him back. That's a good deal for a guy leading his position on the free agent market. But there are going to be a few teams with bunches of cap space. I think Rick is going to get a good chunk more than that.


I think we all know, that when it comes to the position, Brandon Williams ranks higher than on the NT list than Wagner does on the RT list.

And ofc we can't give Wagner Osemele-like-money, but at some point we have to pay guys who fills a need that has proven more difficult to replace.

If Harbaugh or anyone else speak of consistency as a reason to keep Mornhinweg, they should do the same with the offensive line which has been a revolving door with Yanda as the sole anchor.

As I see it, we have an opportunity to solidify our oline the next 3 years if we get a solution at center if we retain Wagner. That would be key to get an offense which doesn't suck or is average at best.


I don't think anyone disagrees about wanting to keep him -- it's just the money required to do so is the key factor.


We will have the money to resign at least 1 of our big free agents and maybe both if we release all the players that we maybe should the problem for me is if we don't resign one of them and don't really sign any "big" names in free agency then we are creating more holes which defeats the purpose. Now as long as it's not stupid money we have to be big players for both Wagner and Williams.
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wackywabbit


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't underestimate the amount of money these guys are going to get thrown at them in FA. Besides, with the rise in importance of interior protection/blocking, RT may be the most replaceable spot on the O-line. It's not like we invested a lot to get Wagner here in the first place. Even when Wagner has missed time, he's not the most durable guy, it hasn't killed us when we had to put someone else in there these past few years. Bad play at center, for example, OTOH has killed us in multiple instances over that same span. If we talking about losing an above average starting center, I'd be more concerned.

I think Wagner will get an offer well beyond his value and be gonzo.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

santiagomn8 wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
Danand wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
Danand wrote:
With that philosophy, we are going to let Rick Wagner and Brandon Williams walk and take our chances on old veterans in FA and we will face the same issues as this year.


I wouldn't classify Williams as the same calibre of player as Wagner though. Brandon is elite at his position. Worth spending the money on.

Wagner, despite his #4 pass protection ranking this year, just isn't up there like that as an overall player. But he's going to get paid like he is. If Baltimore is able to get him for around the same $6 million a year on average that most of the top right tackles are making then great, bring him back. That's a good deal for a guy leading his position on the free agent market. But there are going to be a few teams with bunches of cap space. I think Rick is going to get a good chunk more than that.


I think we all know, that when it comes to the position, Brandon Williams ranks higher than on the NT list than Wagner does on the RT list.

And ofc we can't give Wagner Osemele-like-money, but at some point we have to pay guys who fills a need that has proven more difficult to replace.

If Harbaugh or anyone else speak of consistency as a reason to keep Mornhinweg, they should do the same with the offensive line which has been a revolving door with Yanda as the sole anchor.

As I see it, we have an opportunity to solidify our oline the next 3 years if we get a solution at center if we retain Wagner. That would be key to get an offense which doesn't suck or is average at best.


I don't think anyone disagrees about wanting to keep him -- it's just the money required to do so is the key factor.


We will have the money to resign at least 1 of our big free agents and maybe both if we release all the players that we maybe should the problem for me is if we don't resign one of them and don't really sign any "big" names in free agency then we are creating more holes which defeats the purpose. Now as long as it's not stupid money we have to be big players for both Wagner and Williams.


It's not about whether we have the money or we don't. It's about paying a player what he's worth. It's not worth throwing say an extra $2-3m annually at Wagner just for continuity's sake. That's going to hurt our team more in the long run than losing him likely would.

If we can keep him in the $6-6.5m/year range, I'd love to. But if the FA market starts throwing $8.5+ at him, it's not worth keeping him around at that price.
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Mancunian Raven


Joined: 09 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wackywabbit wrote:
Don't underestimate the amount of money these guys are going to get thrown at them in FA. Besides, with the rise in importance of interior protection/blocking, RT may be the most replaceable spot on the O-line. It's not like we invested a lot to get Wagner here in the first place. Even when Wagner has missed time, he's not the most durable guy, it hasn't killed us when we had to put someone else in there these past few years. Bad play at center, for example, OTOH has killed us in multiple instances over that same span. If we talking about losing an above average starting center, I'd be more concerned.

I think Wagner will get an offer well beyond his value and be gonzo.


If that happens, it happens. If someone wants to pay him $10million plus a year, then the Ravens will be powerless. But giving up before anyone has even made him an offer is crazy.

The only way the Ravens have survived is by moving Yanda around, to plug the gaps. That's far from ideal, because the best Guard in football should be playing at Guard. He's got a couple of years left, in all likelihood, and the Ravens should build as good an O-line as they can around him.

Who takes over from Wagner? If the Ravens have an answer to that, then let him walk. If it's Lewis, or Hurst (yeah, right), then fine. But if they don't have an answer, they should fight to keep the guy they have.

Same goes for Williams, of course. But losing a guy from an area of strength is not as bad as losing a guy from an area that's already weak. The Ravens still have Pierce and Jernigan and Davis and Henry and Guy.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mancunian Raven wrote:
wackywabbit wrote:
Don't underestimate the amount of money these guys are going to get thrown at them in FA. Besides, with the rise in importance of interior protection/blocking, RT may be the most replaceable spot on the O-line. It's not like we invested a lot to get Wagner here in the first place. Even when Wagner has missed time, he's not the most durable guy, it hasn't killed us when we had to put someone else in there these past few years. Bad play at center, for example, OTOH has killed us in multiple instances over that same span. If we talking about losing an above average starting center, I'd be more concerned.

I think Wagner will get an offer well beyond his value and be gonzo.


If that happens, it happens. If someone wants to pay him $10million plus a year, then the Ravens will be powerless. But giving up before anyone has even made him an offer is crazy.

The only way the Ravens have survived is by moving Yanda around, to plug the gaps. That's far from ideal, because the best Guard in football should be playing at Guard. He's got a couple of years left, in all likelihood, and the Ravens should build as good an O-line as they can around him.

Who takes over from Wagner? If the Ravens have an answer to that, then let him walk. If it's Lewis, or Hurst (yeah, right), then fine. But if they don't have an answer, they should fight to keep the guy they have.

Same goes for Williams, of course. But losing a guy from an area of strength is not as bad as losing a guy from an area that's already weak. The Ravens still have Pierce and Jernigan and Davis and Henry and Guy.


Who is giving up already?

And those players you listed, outside of Pierce and perhaps Davis, aren't NTs in Pees' scheme. And Pierce showed some flashes but is far from proven to be a suitable replacement and Davis is a pure projection.
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Danand


Joined: 12 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we are all on board with the "right player right prize" philosophy, but at some point we have to pay our young players instead of giving larger contracts to older free agents.

Even though Wagner might not be the most durable, he is most likely not that easy to replace.

I keep getting back to that point this season, where 5-6 of the teams 7 oldest players where not on the field - and the one who was on the field was Koch.

If we go into this season with Suggs, Dumervil, Webb, Watson, Pitta and another 30+ player who got a contract 2-3 mio. lower than Wagner/Williams, then we are begging for a repeat of this season.

We know what we got in both those players, while the free agents are wild cards, and we had just as many misses as hits in the FA pool. We should ask ourselves if that priority is still the right one.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking for myself when I say I don't want the team to spend a ton of money just to keep Wagner around that doesn't mean I want the Ravens to go looking elsewhere in free agency. No, my main hope is getting Williams back. That's where I want their potential cap space spent and if it happens that's about what I would expect to be the extent of Baltimore's free agency period.

If Williams gets too much money elsewhere then my priority would be Juszczyk and a new deal for West and/or Orr over paying Rick the most money for a right tackle behind Lane Johnson. The theme is to just not pay a ton of money to a solid yet unspectacular player.

The Ravens might be able to open up a good chunk cap space by cutting a bunch of guys... but does anybody actually expect that to happen? I know I don't. A few will be moved on from but they're not going to clean out the roster. Not with Harbaugh and company likely coaching for their jobs next season.
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Danand


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
Speaking for myself when I say I don't want the team to spend a ton of money just to keep Wagner around that doesn't mean I want the Ravens to go looking elsewhere in free agency. No, my main hope is getting Williams back. That's where I want their potential cap space spent and if it happens that's about what I would expect to be the extent of Baltimore's free agency period.

If Williams gets too much money elsewhere then my priority would be Juszczyk and a new deal for West and/or Orr over paying Rick the most money for a right tackle behind Lane Johnson. The theme is to just not pay a ton of money to a solid yet unspectacular player.

The Ravens might be able to open up a good chunk cap space by cutting a bunch of guys... but does anybody actually expect that to happen? I know I don't. A few will be moved on from but they're not going to clean out the roster. Not with Harbaugh and company likely coaching for their jobs next season.


This might bite us in the [inappropriate/removed], but I see good reason in restructuring Webb and Pitta and keeping them around.

The Arrington, Lewis, Powers trio should be gone from the defense and I don't see a reason to keep Watson around as well. Zuttah might be a cut depending on what happens in the draft. He will still be more difficult to replace than any of the other imo.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danand wrote:
This might bite us in the [inappropriate/removed], but I see good reason in restructuring Webb and Pitta and keeping them around.

The Arrington, Lewis, Powers trio should be gone from the defense and I don't see a reason to keep Watson around as well. Zuttah might be a cut depending on what happens in the draft. He will still be more difficult to replace than any of the other imo.


Powers is already going to be a free agent.

I think Webb and Wallace are prime candidates for extensions that lower their cap number next season. Doesn't make a ton of sense to cut them outright without having any in-house candidates as replacements. There are needs at those two positions even if/when Lardarius and Mike are brought back. Can't see the team doubling down on making two positions of needs even more... needy if the guys potentially being cut can still contribute. Unlike Dumervil at outside linebacker and Wright at cornerback.

The situation with Pitta is hard. Don't really need him (or Watson) with Williams coming back, Gillmore still on the team, and then Boyle and Waller showing that they can be contributors. But Dennis is also Joe's favorite target (sometimes to the detriment of the offense) and his best friend on the team. Don't think he's really a candidate for an extension/lower cap number either given that he has two years left on his deal and is going to be 32 this summer with a very worrisome history of injuries. Unless it's an outright pay cut it's hard to see anything happening with Pitta's contract unless he's just cut. I don't know, like I said it's a tough situation.
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wackywabbit


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danand wrote:
I think we are all on board with the "right player right prize" philosophy, but at some point we have to pay our young players instead of giving larger contracts to older free agents.


You want to pay your young studs first. Above average RTs? Meh.

After focusing on BW, we should really look at extending guys like Mosley and Jernigan now. I'd honestly look at giving Zach Orr a long term deal, as well. I was pretty impressed with how he improved this season, and I don't think we are really buying high with him.

We don't give out large contracts to older free agents. We usually pay them below starter rates, and we definitely have gotten bang for the buck on those types of signings. Just the ones I can think of (post-SB): Weedle, Wallace, Steve Smith, Daryl Smith, Forsett (first singing) were all great bargains. Doom got $5.2M per and wildly outplayed that at first, though isn't doing much lately.

Please sign me up for more moves like that.
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Danand


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wackywabbit wrote:
Danand wrote:
I think we are all on board with the "right player right prize" philosophy, but at some point we have to pay our young players instead of giving larger contracts to older free agents.


You want to pay your young studs first. Above average RTs? Meh.

After focusing on BW, we should really look at extending guys like Mosley and Jernigan now. I'd honestly look at giving Zach Orr a long term deal, as well. I was pretty impressed with how he improved this season, and I don't think we are really buying high with him.

We don't give out large contracts to older free agents. We usually pay them below starter rates, and we definitely have gotten bang for the buck on those types of signings. Just the ones I can think of (post-SB): Weedle, Wallace, Steve Smith, Daryl Smith, Forsett (first singing) were all great bargains. Doom got $5.2M per and wildly outplayed that at first, though isn't doing much lately.

Please sign me up for more moves like that.


Jernigan haven't done that much besides some early games. He disappear way too much.

With how much we complained about the offense line, I find it weird how much people are ready to discard players from that unit.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danand wrote:

With how much we complained about the offense line, I find it weird how much people are ready to discard players from that unit.


I know you love your fat men, so I know you'll defend them Laughing But, while we definitely have OL woes, we're going to hurt ourselves worse overall if we overpay a slightly above average RT as if he's a top RT in the league. It takes money away from helping to patch up other holes or in keeping other guys long-term.

I'd love to keep Wagner around. I think OL continuity is a great thing. I think he's earned his keep here. But it all comes down to whether he chases the money or if he wants to remain loyal and accept what he's truly "worth" instead of what he's "worth" if that makes any sense.
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wackywabbit


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danand wrote:
Jernigan haven't done that much besides some early games. He disappear way too much.


Which is why we would offer him something lower than what we offer a CJ Mosley type.

Danand wrote:
With how much we complained about the offense line, I find it weird how much people are ready to discard players from that unit.


Again, no one wants to lose Wagner. We are all basing the likelihood of him leaving on the type of offer we expect him to see in free agency.

Tell me this, how much should we offer Wagner in free agency (avg value/year)? You will probably complain when the FO lets him walk. So, at least put it in print, what offer you think we should make, so that you have valid reason to complain if/when he takes a similar offer somewhere else.

Personally, I'd go no higher than $6.5M per. I hope he takes a deal like that. But, with the backload of $$ out there, I see him getting an $8M per offer.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a side note, Williams and Wagner aren't really that young. Brandon is going to be 28 on February 21st and Rick is going to be 28 on October 21st. Both are definitely going to be chasing the money come March because at the end of the contracts they get this offseason they're more than likely going to be past their prime and not getting another big offer.

Starting to make me a bit worried about being able to keep Williams around. I think he's elite and worth paying market value for, but the front office tends to let guys making the most at their positions (besides Flacco) walk. Crying or Very sad
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