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Browns Fire DC Horton, Hire Gregg Williams
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KamTrus20


Joined: 17 Nov 2009
Posts: 6833
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
kelbot wrote:
Only on FF do we trash each other for proposing using a guy at a position he has actually played at (Collins OLB) but then all unanimously decide that a prospect who made his name as a shutdown corner and INT machine, who has only ever played corner, would be better suited as a safety (King).


King is a college player transitioning to the professional game, discussing any success he may have is entirely a projection.

Collins is a known entity at the professional level and there is no need to project anything.

Completely different situations.


Not to mention I don't remember anyone trashing anyone about Collins playing OLB. It was the guys saying to play him at DE.

Also, Collins has proven time and time again he can play in the middle. He could play any linebacker spot in a 43 or 34. He's that type of athlete. And also what has been proven is he is not as effective of an edge rusher as people have been tricked into thinking, therefore, his snaps on the edge should be purely to mix things up.
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DaWg_LB.


Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 6152
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
bosko1616 wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
Only problem right now with us running a big nickel is our safeties.

We couldn't fine 2 worth playing all season let alone 3.

I'd expect a talent infusion at those positions this offseason though, so it may be possible next season.


TJ McDonald and hopefully one at 12 or with a 2nd rounder. Such an incredible safety draft. Won't hate drafting 2 tbh.


TJ McDonald SS
Desmond King FS
Josh Harvey-Clemons SS/OLB

That would be awesome


Don't know anything about Clemons, but like the other two.


I definitely feel you...and I'm not suggesting we do this....its just something I like.......for instance, for the past 10 years or so, I have been saying if I was an OC, I would build my offense around TE's, right now they are so undervalued IMO....its easy to get good ones as FA's or in the draft.......but for the past 4-5 years, I've been leaning towards playing a big nickle....decent safeties are easy to get, and usually fall in the draft and you can still draft slower bigger CB's and convert to Safety....(George Iokla, Ray-Ray Armstrong, TJ Green (FS), James Bradberry(FS), Antwon Exume, Miles Kilebrew, Kevin Byard and Jerrmy Cash over the past couple of years is what the idea looks like for me).

This year, I've scouted QB's, Pass Rushers and Safties as much if not more then some people who are getting paid to do it LOL.....this year is a pretty strong year for safties IMO, so if it were me...I have identified a couple of guys to play FS in a big nickle allignment and quite a few guys to play the SS/RS <rover safties)
To play free, would be Joe Haden, if he would convert...but Malik Hooker (#12), Marcus Williams 1rst/2nd, Eddie Jackson (3rd/4th) Lorenzo James 3rd/4th, Obi Melifonwu 4th/5th. At the SS/RS position we already have Derick Kindred, but add one or two of these Jabril Peppers (1rst), Jamal Adams (1rst), Buddah Baker 2nd/3rd), Fish Smithson (3rd/4th), Kai Nacua (3rd), Orion Stewart (4th), Nate Garry (3rd), Ahmad Thomas (4th/5th), Josh Harvey-Clemmons (4th),Tyree Robinson (5th/6th) Tony Conner (7th/UDFA) Nate Andrews (7th/UDFA),. These are all the safeties I watched at least 1 entire game and 1 half on each one listed and their rankings is what I thought of them....except for the last two Conner and Andrews..both have injury concerns.

So a big nickle package could have its frame work put into place with as little as a couple of late day picks/1 early day pick and a late day pick/1 first round pick and a couple of UDFA's....

No matter what we run, we need safeties in the worst way. IMO....
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BleedTheClock


Joined: 17 Nov 2014
Posts: 5318
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Outside the box thinking...not what I'd do, but I'm bored.


Trade #1 to Chicago for #3, 2017 2nd, 2018 1st.


#3--Jamal Adams SS LSU
#12--Malik Hooker FS Ohio State
2nd--Takkarist McKinley DE UCLA
2nd--David Njoku TE Miami Fl.
2nd--Caleb Brantley DT Florida
3rd--Tyler Orlosky C West Virginia

That gives you 2 elite safeties and 2 very good DL. A supreme playmaking flex TE and a mauling C. Plus a high 2018 1st round pick from Chicago.
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GFalcon wrote:
Yes, you guys will still win series but jokes on you because lebron going to fail again in the finals for CLE against GS or SA. Cool Sometimes i feel bad for cleveland
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kelbot


Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 2751
Location: Dayton, OH
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KamTrus20 wrote:
LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
kelbot wrote:
Only on FF do we trash each other for proposing using a guy at a position he has actually played at (Collins OLB) but then all unanimously decide that a prospect who made his name as a shutdown corner and INT machine, who has only ever played corner, would be better suited as a safety (King).


King is a college player transitioning to the professional game, discussing any success he may have is entirely a projection.

Collins is a known entity at the professional level and there is no need to project anything.

Completely different situations.


Not to mention I don't remember anyone trashing anyone about Collins playing OLB. It was the guys saying to play him at DE.

Also, Collins has proven time and time again he can play in the middle. He could play any linebacker spot in a 43 or 34. He's that type of athlete. And also what has been proven is he is not as effective of an edge rusher as people have been tricked into thinking, therefore, his snaps on the edge should be purely to mix things up.


I'm not necessarily against either, I just find it ironic. King especially. Let's at least wait until he runs his 40. He's not slower than Haden or Revis.
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BleedTheClock


Joined: 17 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kelbot wrote:

I'm not necessarily against either, I just find it ironic. King especially. Let's at least wait until he runs his 40. He's not slower than Haden or Revis.



yes he is.
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Yes, you guys will still win series but jokes on you because lebron going to fail again in the finals for CLE against GS or SA. Cool Sometimes i feel bad for cleveland
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kelbot


Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 2751
Location: Dayton, OH
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BleedTheClock wrote:
kelbot wrote:

I'm not necessarily against either, I just find it ironic. King especially. Let's at least wait until he runs his 40. He's not slower than Haden or Revis.



yes he is.


Great response. It's this type of insight that makes FF the best NFL forum on the internet.

Maybe coming out they run a faster 40, but I'd bet money that King beats both in a footrace right now.
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CBrownsman


Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 663
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BleedTheClock wrote:
Never liked Orchard. Too slow to be a LBer and cover. Too small to play DE. Has very limited potential. He can battle Tyrone Holmes to get that 4th DE spot once we draft Garrett. Garrett/Ogbah/Nassib/???

Probably better as a DE, but I still don't like him. Seemed like a, "ehhh he seems like a nice guy" pick. Plus, the fact that Ray Farmer identified him as worthy of a top pick means he's bound to be out of the NFL in due time. I bet Orchard was shocked he was drafted that high.


I don't understand why we are forgetting Cam Johnson in this case. at 6'-4" and weighing in at 270 he is the right size for a defensive end. I thought with a lack of people at OLB he came in a played admirably rushing the passer and defending against the run. I don't know that he could be an OLB in the 4-3 and think his best fit is DE in the scheme. Why would we put Tyrone Holmes above him?
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BleedTheClock


Joined: 17 Nov 2014
Posts: 5318
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kelbot wrote:
BleedTheClock wrote:
kelbot wrote:

I'm not necessarily against either, I just find it ironic. King especially. Let's at least wait until he runs his 40. He's not slower than Haden or Revis.



yes he is.


Great response. It's this type of insight that makes FF the best NFL forum on the internet.

Maybe coming out they run a faster 40, but I'd bet money that King beats both in a footrace right now.


Do I really need to post a lengthy response as to how someone is faster than someone else?

Also, comparing a 23 year old draft prospects speed to a dude clearly washed up and another with 2 groin tears isn't really a great argument.
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GFalcon wrote:
Yes, you guys will still win series but jokes on you because lebron going to fail again in the finals for CLE against GS or SA. Cool Sometimes i feel bad for cleveland
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MSURacerDT55


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 7592
Location: 8 mile by way of St. Clair E.99
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CBrownsman wrote:
BleedTheClock wrote:
Never liked Orchard. Too slow to be a LBer and cover. Too small to play DE. Has very limited potential. He can battle Tyrone Holmes to get that 4th DE spot once we draft Garrett. Garrett/Ogbah/Nassib/???

Probably better as a DE, but I still don't like him. Seemed like a, "ehhh he seems like a nice guy" pick. Plus, the fact that Ray Farmer identified him as worthy of a top pick means he's bound to be out of the NFL in due time. I bet Orchard was shocked he was drafted that high.


I don't understand why we are forgetting Cam Johnson in this case. at 6'-4" and weighing in at 270 he is the right size for a defensive end. I thought with a lack of people at OLB he came in a played admirably rushing the passer and defending against the run. I don't know that he could be an OLB in the 4-3 and think his best fit is DE in the scheme. Why would we put Tyrone Holmes above him?


Great point, Cam just does his job, but had Armanti Bryant hadn't been a dummy he would have fit perfectly
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BleedTheClock


Joined: 17 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CBrownsman wrote:
BleedTheClock wrote:
Never liked Orchard. Too slow to be a LBer and cover. Too small to play DE. Has very limited potential. He can battle Tyrone Holmes to get that 4th DE spot once we draft Garrett. Garrett/Ogbah/Nassib/???

Probably better as a DE, but I still don't like him. Seemed like a, "ehhh he seems like a nice guy" pick. Plus, the fact that Ray Farmer identified him as worthy of a top pick means he's bound to be out of the NFL in due time. I bet Orchard was shocked he was drafted that high.


I don't understand why we are forgetting Cam Johnson in this case. at 6'-4" and weighing in at 270 he is the right size for a defensive end. I thought with a lack of people at OLB he came in a played admirably rushing the passer and defending against the run. I don't know that he could be an OLB in the 4-3 and think his best fit is DE in the scheme. Why would we put Tyrone Holmes above him?


Holmes is young. Was a rookie last season. Cam Johnson has been underwhelming for years.
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GFalcon wrote:
Yes, you guys will still win series but jokes on you because lebron going to fail again in the finals for CLE against GS or SA. Cool Sometimes i feel bad for cleveland
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kelbot


Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 2751
Location: Dayton, OH
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BleedTheClock wrote:
kelbot wrote:
BleedTheClock wrote:
kelbot wrote:

I'm not necessarily against either, I just find it ironic. King especially. Let's at least wait until he runs his 40. He's not slower than Haden or Revis.



yes he is.


Great response. It's this type of insight that makes FF the best NFL forum on the internet.

Maybe coming out they run a faster 40, but I'd bet money that King beats both in a footrace right now.


Do I really need to post a lengthy response as to how someone is faster than someone else?

Also, comparing a 23 year old draft prospects speed to a dude clearly washed up and another with 2 groin tears isn't really a great argument.


I would hope for more than "yes he is"

They are both highly paid starters at CB in the NFL, seems relevant. I didn't know Revis tore both groins Razz
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LETSGOBROWNIES


Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 15145
Location: CINCINNATI
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CBrownsman wrote:
BleedTheClock wrote:
Never liked Orchard. Too slow to be a LBer and cover. Too small to play DE. Has very limited potential. He can battle Tyrone Holmes to get that 4th DE spot once we draft Garrett. Garrett/Ogbah/Nassib/???

Probably better as a DE, but I still don't like him. Seemed like a, "ehhh he seems like a nice guy" pick. Plus, the fact that Ray Farmer identified him as worthy of a top pick means he's bound to be out of the NFL in due time. I bet Orchard was shocked he was drafted that high.


I don't understand why we are forgetting Cam Johnson in this case. at 6'-4" and weighing in at 270 he is the right size for a defensive end. I thought with a lack of people at OLB he came in a played admirably rushing the passer and defending against the run. I don't know that he could be an OLB in the 4-3 and think his best fit is DE in the scheme. Why would we put Tyrone Holmes above him?


I mean, Johnson will be 27 and has bounced around the league for a few years.

Holmes was just a rookie last year so I think the expectation is Holmes should have a decent jump in play from year one to year two while Johnson sort of is who he is.
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CBrownsman


Joined: 16 Feb 2007
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Location: Michigan
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BleedTheClock wrote:
CBrownsman wrote:
BleedTheClock wrote:
Never liked Orchard. Too slow to be a LBer and cover. Too small to play DE. Has very limited potential. He can battle Tyrone Holmes to get that 4th DE spot once we draft Garrett. Garrett/Ogbah/Nassib/???

Probably better as a DE, but I still don't like him. Seemed like a, "ehhh he seems like a nice guy" pick. Plus, the fact that Ray Farmer identified him as worthy of a top pick means he's bound to be out of the NFL in due time. I bet Orchard was shocked he was drafted that high.


I don't understand why we are forgetting Cam Johnson in this case. at 6'-4" and weighing in at 270 he is the right size for a defensive end. I thought with a lack of people at OLB he came in a played admirably rushing the passer and defending against the run. I don't know that he could be an OLB in the 4-3 and think his best fit is DE in the scheme. Why would we put Tyrone Holmes above him?


Holmes is young. Was a rookie last season. Cam Johnson has been underwhelming for years.


Holmes was less than underwhelming in the few attempts he was given this year where Cam played really well, from the pre-season though the seasons end. Johnson is only 26 years old (27 by seasons start), I wouldn't rule him out as a backup DE (4th on the roster in fact) because hes hasn't turned into a superstar in 5 years. Having some experience in that position might not be a bad thing considering the other 3 players were drafted last year or who we hope to draft in this upcomming...
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ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
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Location: Gahanna, OH
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The plan was to tank, that's why Horton was brought in.

In the last 4 years, teams with a Ray Horton coordinated defense have picked 4th (Cleveland 2013) 2nd (Cleveland 2014), 2nd (Tennessee 2015) and 1st (Tennessee 2016) in the draft. Now with the #1 pick again in 2017, Horton has cemented his unfortunate legacy.

It doesn't take a Harvard diploma to spot that kind of trend.
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Bonanza23


Joined: 10 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CBrownsman wrote:
BleedTheClock wrote:
Never liked Orchard. Too slow to be a LBer and cover. Too small to play DE. Has very limited potential. He can battle Tyrone Holmes to get that 4th DE spot once we draft Garrett. Garrett/Ogbah/Nassib/???

Probably better as a DE, but I still don't like him. Seemed like a, "ehhh he seems like a nice guy" pick. Plus, the fact that Ray Farmer identified him as worthy of a top pick means he's bound to be out of the NFL in due time. I bet Orchard was shocked he was drafted that high.


I don't understand why we are forgetting Cam Johnson in this case. at 6'-4" and weighing in at 270 he is the right size for a defensive end. I thought with a lack of people at OLB he came in a played admirably rushing the passer and defending against the run. I don't know that he could be an OLB in the 4-3 and think his best fit is DE in the scheme. Why would we put Tyrone Holmes above him?


Because Holmes is raw and has far bigger upside. I'm actually very curious to see how he ends up under Williams.

Side note, I'm actually very happy to move back to 4-3. To me it's far easier to project players and scout them. Plus the 3-4 has NEVER worked here since '99 for whatever reason. Although now I have to re-program what I need to look for in prospects Laughing
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