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mcmurtry86
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 32062
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 Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| m haynes wrote: | | your opinion, I disagree. |
I didn't present an opinion. I presented facts. Namely, college success and usage patterns has had no correlation to pro success or usage when it comes to RB's. Plenty of good NFL every down RB's have been limited successes in college. And tons (the vast majority) of successful every down college backs have failed to be solid NFL every down backs
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emmitt smith 5'9 215
walter payton 5'10 200
Jamaal Charles 5 11 199
BenJarvus Green-Ellis 5 11 215
Tiki Barber 5-10 205
Thurman Thomas 5 10 206
Marcus Allen 6.2 210
doug martin 59 223
LeSean McCoy 5.11 211
Lamar Miller 5.11 212
C. J. Anderson 5.8 224
Tevin Coleman 61 205
Devonta Freeman 5.9 209
Javorius Allen 6.1 215
Duke Johnson 5.9 210
Theo Riddick 5.9 201
Melvin Gordon 6.1 207
Frank Gore 5.9 216
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Not really sure what this group of players has in common or how it's relevant.
If you think it's so debatable that a RB can be an every down guy in today's NFL without high end balance/power or elite vision, why not present some examples? Or make a case why Christian McCaffrey, who never showed power and tackle breaking ability (outside of arm tackles in the open field) in college is going to develop that ability in the pros. If you believe strongly in him as a true feature back, then it should be easy to articulate a case for him other than "John Elway says it's true".
| Quote: | | CM can run at any time between the tackles |
He didn't in college. What makes you think he will do so in the NFL against better talent?
| Quote: | | It like rolling Blount and White into one player |
 McCaffrey has almost nothing in common with Blount and little in common with White. Have you seen him play in college beyond a couple of clips on Youtube? |
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mcmurtry86
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 32062
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| dhunt2402 wrote: | | 6.57 3 cone for McCaffrey. If he's on the board at 32 I think he might be the pick. I'd prefer Kareem Hunt in the 2/3rd round, but wouldn't hate the pick |
I don't see it, unless they're moving on from Lewis or expecting to move on from White in 2018. They're not going to have McCaffrey replace Blount's role on the offense obviously and having Lewis/White/McCaffrey all active on game day is a waste. There's not enough touches to go around to warrant a 1st round pick unless one of the current RB's is leaving.
I like McCaffrey. I think he's going to be a really solid NFL player and put up pretty big numbers. But I don't really him as a fit in New England, given their current roster. And the value is really questionable with the team's defensive issues both short and long term. |
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dhunt2402
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 26048
Location: The District
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| mcmurtry86 wrote: | | dhunt2402 wrote: | | 6.57 3 cone for McCaffrey. If he's on the board at 32 I think he might be the pick. I'd prefer Kareem Hunt in the 2/3rd round, but wouldn't hate the pick |
I don't see it, unless they're moving on from Lewis or expecting to move on from White in 2018. They're not going to have McCaffrey replace Blount's role on the offense obviously and having Lewis/White/McCaffrey all active on game day is a waste. There's not enough touches to go around to warrant a 1st round pick unless one of the current RB's is leaving.
I like McCaffrey. I think he's going to be a really solid NFL player and put up pretty big numbers. But I don't really him as a fit in New England, given their current roster. And the value is really questionable with the team's defensive issues both short and long term. |
I could see them moving on from Lewis this offseason. White isn't a guarantee to stay beyond 2017. I also think McCaffrey will be a better runner between the tackles than Blount, his vision is light years ahead of LG's. For all the talk of filling the "Blount" role, how much does that guy really bring to the table from a power, between the tackles standpoint? Versatility is ultimately what would drive a pick like this though. Imagine having a back who could command respect as a runner and a receiver at the same time...not allowing the defense to predict run/pass based on personnel. He's a mismatch wherever you line him up as a route runner. I think he's a Pro Bowler right out of the gate if he ends up in the right offense.
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m haynes
Joined: 29 Jan 2011
Posts: 1626
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| dhunt2402 wrote: | | 6.57 3 cone for McCaffrey. If he's on the board at 32 I think he might be the pick. I'd prefer Kareem Hunt in the 2/3rd round, but wouldn't hate the pick |
Tough call. I rather go with a back later in the draft as you mentioned. I don't see him getting past Denver. |
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Starless
Joined: 05 Jan 2015
Posts: 11301
Location: The worst of all possible realities
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| So is John Ross actually good, or just fast? |
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m haynes
Joined: 29 Jan 2011
Posts: 1626
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| MoJo63 wrote: | | m haynes wrote: | | MoJo63 wrote: | | m haynes wrote: | | mcmurtry86 wrote: | | m haynes wrote: | | mcmurtry86 wrote: |
Being an every down guy in college has nothing to do with having the skills to be an every down guy in the pros. |
Your opinion, I disagree. |
It's not an opinion. There are literally dozens of college feature backs who get drafted or signed as undrafted FA every year who fail to make rosters or are part time players. Kevin Faulk was an every down back in college. So was Shane Vereen. Darren Sproles had over 750 carries in 3 years as a starter. Ameer Abdullah was top 15 in carries during his career.
There aren't many every down backs in today's NFL. There are even fewer, if any, good ones who lack either elite balance/power and vision. You need to have either vision and explosiveness/agility or power and speed.
If you can give an example of an every down starter in the pros who doesn't have high end vision or power/vision, I'd be very surprised.
What guys do at college is largely irrelevant to how they project as pros. You have to look at the skill set more than the role or production. Tyler Gaffney had 330 carries for Stanford in 2013. He, clearly, lacks starting RB tools. Bobby Rainey had over 700 carries his final 2 years in school and was never considered to have every down tools. |
Your opinion, I disagree.
emmitt smith 5'9 215
walter payton 5'10 200
Jamaal Charles 5 11 199
BenJarvus Green-Ellis 5 11 215
Tiki Barber 5-10 205
Thurman Thomas 5 10 206
Marcus Allen 6.2 210
doug martin 59 223
LeSean McCoy 5.11 211
Lamar Miller 5.11 212
C. J. Anderson 5.8 224
Tevin Coleman 61 205
Devonta Freeman 5.9 209
Javorius Allen 6.1 215
Duke Johnson 5.9 210
Theo Riddick 5.9 201
Melvin Gordon 6.1 207
Frank Gore 5.9 216
Christian McCaffrey , 6ft 200lbs, that just blew up the combine and has all those rushing yards can be a every down back. |
It's not like Stanford plays a tough schedule in a tough conference there is always a lot to consider. I remember all the hype about Reggie Bush how great he was going to be and myself and a few others on my old board didn't see it that way. He reminds me of that. I think at best he will be a capable back in the NFL |
There are thousand reason he can/can't. BB is not stupid, he will make changes. CM can run at any time between the tackles or flank out to WR, as a defensive coordinator, that has to be a nightmare. You can set up in a 5 wide and change to a between tackle play without switching personal. There are many ways you can use him as your full time back. The Pats can run a full play book without changes. The Pats are fast on offense. How fast would they be if Brady calls the plays and they have a player like CM that can run and catch. It like rolling Blount and White into one player. |
Okay get past the whole he can run anytime between the tackles that simply is not the truth and damn sure not at an NFL level. And again no way the Pats (IMO) take a RB that early the likes of which they already have when there are glaring needs at other positions. You like him we get it, but the need is not there. |
| Quote: | | Okay get past the whole he can run anytime between the tackles that simply is not the truth and damn sure not at an NFL level. |
I'm trying to come up with a response to this ridicules statement. Sorry, I have nothing.
I never said I would pick him, however I'm not against it. I mostly like bigs at the top of the draft. Here what I'm hoping for at 32.
Taco Charlton, DE, Michigan
Derek Barnett, DE, Tennessee
Chris Wormley DL, Michigan
Forrest Lamp OL Western Kentucky
Oh ya, I want BB to trade the pick most of the time. |
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mcmurtry86
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 32062
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| dhunt2402 wrote: | | mcmurtry86 wrote: | | dhunt2402 wrote: | | 6.57 3 cone for McCaffrey. If he's on the board at 32 I think he might be the pick. I'd prefer Kareem Hunt in the 2/3rd round, but wouldn't hate the pick |
I don't see it, unless they're moving on from Lewis or expecting to move on from White in 2018. They're not going to have McCaffrey replace Blount's role on the offense obviously and having Lewis/White/McCaffrey all active on game day is a waste. There's not enough touches to go around to warrant a 1st round pick unless one of the current RB's is leaving.
I like McCaffrey. I think he's going to be a really solid NFL player and put up pretty big numbers. But I don't really him as a fit in New England, given their current roster. And the value is really questionable with the team's defensive issues both short and long term. |
I could see them moving on from Lewis this offseason. White isn't a guarantee to stay beyond 2017. I also think McCaffrey will be a better runner between the tackles than Blount, his vision is light years ahead of LG's. For all the talk of filling the "Blount" role, how much does that guy really bring to the table from a power, between the tackles standpoint? Versatility is ultimately what would drive a pick like this though. Imagine having a back who could command respect as a runner and a receiver at the same time...not allowing the defense to predict run/pass based on personnel. He's a mismatch wherever you line him up as a route runner. I think he's a Pro Bowler right out of the gate if he ends up in the right offense. |
Belichick has always liked having a power back in his offense. McCaffrey isn't that guy. His vision is, indeed, light years better than Blount. But I don't see Belichick getting away from his desire to have that square framed 220 lbs type guy in his offense. It's not just being able to break tackles but IMO he is very attracted to the idea of a RB who can physically wear down defenses and can run with power. |
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m haynes
Joined: 29 Jan 2011
Posts: 1626
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| dhunt2402 wrote: | | mcmurtry86 wrote: | | dhunt2402 wrote: | | 6.57 3 cone for McCaffrey. If he's on the board at 32 I think he might be the pick. I'd prefer Kareem Hunt in the 2/3rd round, but wouldn't hate the pick |
I don't see it, unless they're moving on from Lewis or expecting to move on from White in 2018. They're not going to have McCaffrey replace Blount's role on the offense obviously and having Lewis/White/McCaffrey all active on game day is a waste. There's not enough touches to go around to warrant a 1st round pick unless one of the current RB's is leaving.
I like McCaffrey. I think he's going to be a really solid NFL player and put up pretty big numbers. But I don't really him as a fit in New England, given their current roster. And the value is really questionable with the team's defensive issues both short and long term. |
I could see them moving on from Lewis this offseason. White isn't a guarantee to stay beyond 2017. I also think McCaffrey will be a better runner between the tackles than Blount, his vision is light years ahead of LG's. For all the talk of filling the "Blount" role, how much does that guy really bring to the table from a power, between the tackles standpoint? Versatility is ultimately what would drive a pick like this though. Imagine having a back who could command respect as a runner and a receiver at the same time...not allowing the defense to predict run/pass based on personnel. He's a mismatch wherever you line him up as a route runner. I think he's a Pro Bowler right out of the gate if he ends up in the right offense. |
I agree with both of you. He such a intriguing pick.
Trying to figure out what BB will do is impossible. The possibilities with him on the Pats offense is scary! |
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m haynes
Joined: 29 Jan 2011
Posts: 1626
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| mcmurtry86 wrote: | | dhunt2402 wrote: | | mcmurtry86 wrote: | | dhunt2402 wrote: | | 6.57 3 cone for McCaffrey. If he's on the board at 32 I think he might be the pick. I'd prefer Kareem Hunt in the 2/3rd round, but wouldn't hate the pick |
I don't see it, unless they're moving on from Lewis or expecting to move on from White in 2018. They're not going to have McCaffrey replace Blount's role on the offense obviously and having Lewis/White/McCaffrey all active on game day is a waste. There's not enough touches to go around to warrant a 1st round pick unless one of the current RB's is leaving.
I like McCaffrey. I think he's going to be a really solid NFL player and put up pretty big numbers. But I don't really him as a fit in New England, given their current roster. And the value is really questionable with the team's defensive issues both short and long term. |
I could see them moving on from Lewis this offseason. White isn't a guarantee to stay beyond 2017. I also think McCaffrey will be a better runner between the tackles than Blount, his vision is light years ahead of LG's. For all the talk of filling the "Blount" role, how much does that guy really bring to the table from a power, between the tackles standpoint? Versatility is ultimately what would drive a pick like this though. Imagine having a back who could command respect as a runner and a receiver at the same time...not allowing the defense to predict run/pass based on personnel. He's a mismatch wherever you line him up as a route runner. I think he's a Pro Bowler right out of the gate if he ends up in the right offense. |
Belichick has always liked having a power back in his offense. McCaffrey isn't that guy. His vision is, indeed, light years better than Blount. But I don't see Belichick getting away from his desire to have that square framed 220 lbs type guy in his offense. It's not just being able to break tackles but IMO he is very attracted to the idea of a RB who can physically wear down defenses and can run with power. |
I agree, but you brought couple of possibility in your last comment. I like your thought process with Lewis/White. Keep Blount or draft Hunt/Conner/Hood in the later rounds. Here another thought, CM creates a roster spot, no need for the two 3rd down backs. |
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m haynes
Joined: 29 Jan 2011
Posts: 1626
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| mcmurtry86 wrote: | | m haynes wrote: | | your opinion, I disagree. |
I didn't present an opinion. I presented facts. Namely, college success and usage patterns has had no correlation to pro success or usage when it comes to RB's. Plenty of good NFL every down RB's have been limited successes in college. And tons (the vast majority) of successful every down college backs have failed to be solid NFL every down backs
| Quote: |
emmitt smith 5'9 215
walter payton 5'10 200
Jamaal Charles 5 11 199
BenJarvus Green-Ellis 5 11 215
Tiki Barber 5-10 205
Thurman Thomas 5 10 206
Marcus Allen 6.2 210
doug martin 59 223
LeSean McCoy 5.11 211
Lamar Miller 5.11 212
C. J. Anderson 5.8 224
Tevin Coleman 61 205
Devonta Freeman 5.9 209
Javorius Allen 6.1 215
Duke Johnson 5.9 210
Theo Riddick 5.9 201
Melvin Gordon 6.1 207
Frank Gore 5.9 216
|
Not really sure what this group of players has in common or how it's relevant.
If you think it's so debatable that a RB can be an every down guy in today's NFL without high end balance/power or elite vision, why not present some examples? Or make a case why Christian McCaffrey, who never showed power and tackle breaking ability (outside of arm tackles in the open field) in college is going to develop that ability in the pros. If you believe strongly in him as a true feature back, then it should be easy to articulate a case for him other than "John Elway says it's true".
| Quote: | | CM can run at any time between the tackles |
He didn't in college. What makes you think he will do so in the NFL against better talent?
| Quote: | | It like rolling Blount and White into one player |
McCaffrey has almost nothing in common with Blount and little in common with White. Have you seen him play in college beyond a couple of clips on Youtube? |
your opinion, I disagree. |
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patsfan06
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 5936
Location: Waltham
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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Pass on an early round back unless it's Fournette (not happening).
Otherwise, count me all in on Brian Hill in the middle rounds. |
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goldfishwars
Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Posts: 11937
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| Starless wrote: | | So is John Ross actually good, or just fast? |
He's both, but also hurt a lot. |
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Deadpulse
Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 12705
Location: Boston MA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| goldfishwars wrote: | | Starless wrote: | | So is John Ross actually good, or just fast? |
He's both, but also hurt a lot. |
Im not convinced. A lot of his knocks are those classic knocks that make him a great collegiate but a bad pro. He struggles against physical corners, doesnt do well taking big hits and has shied away from them, doesn't catch the ball in traffic, and is not a smooth route runner often stumbling in and out of them. He is will have a lot of the same struggles that Dobson had IMO.
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goldfishwars
Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Posts: 11937
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| Deadpulse wrote: | | goldfishwars wrote: | | Starless wrote: | | So is John Ross actually good, or just fast? |
He's both, but also hurt a lot. |
Im not convinced. A lot of his knocks are those classic knocks that make him a great collegiate but a bad pro. He struggles against physical corners, doesnt do well taking big hits and has shied away from them, doesn't catch the ball in traffic, and is not a smooth route runner often stumbling in and out of them. He is will have a lot of the same struggles that Dobson had IMO. |
Depends what you want him to do. Agree he struggles to get off press, but his speed is so outrageous that you find ways to help get him a free release like the Colts do with TY Hilton. He's a big play threat and that brings other benefits in clearing space for others. Nobody was ever worried about Dobson hurting them deep. |
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Deadpulse
Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 12705
Location: Boston MA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| goldfishwars wrote: | | Deadpulse wrote: | | goldfishwars wrote: | | Starless wrote: | | So is John Ross actually good, or just fast? |
He's both, but also hurt a lot. |
Im not convinced. A lot of his knocks are those classic knocks that make him a great collegiate but a bad pro. He struggles against physical corners, doesnt do well taking big hits and has shied away from them, doesn't catch the ball in traffic, and is not a smooth route runner often stumbling in and out of them. He is will have a lot of the same struggles that Dobson had IMO. |
Depends what you want him to do. Agree he struggles to get off press, but his speed is so outrageous that you find ways to help get him a free release like the Colts do with TY Hilton. He's a big play threat and that brings other benefits in clearing space for others. Nobody was ever worried about Dobson hurting them deep. |
I didnt just say press coverage. Any kind of man on man in the NFL is likely to give him fits because A) Its more physical, especially with the ball in the air, and B) His speed is mitigated by not being able to run a clean route.
He can be a useful player in the NFL as a deep threat, but he is not a 1st round pick IMO. He will never be a top 10 receiver in this league, or a #1 receiver on any team unless your like 2006 Patriots bad at WR.
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