You are currently viewing the old forums. We have upgraded to a new NFL Forum.
This old forum is being left as a read-only archive.
Please update your bookmarks to our new forum at forums.footballsfuture.com.


 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

2017 Draft Prospects & Discussion
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> New England Patriots
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 32062
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

m haynes wrote:
your opinion, I disagree.


I didn't present an opinion. I presented facts. Namely, college success and usage patterns has had no correlation to pro success or usage when it comes to RB's. Plenty of good NFL every down RB's have been limited successes in college. And tons (the vast majority) of successful every down college backs have failed to be solid NFL every down backs

Quote:

emmitt smith 5'9 215
walter payton 5'10 200
Jamaal Charles 5 11 199
BenJarvus Green-Ellis 5 11 215
Tiki Barber 5-10 205
Thurman Thomas 5 10 206
Marcus Allen 6.2 210
doug martin 59 223
LeSean McCoy 5.11 211
Lamar Miller 5.11 212
C. J. Anderson 5.8 224
Tevin Coleman 61 205
Devonta Freeman 5.9 209
Javorius Allen 6.1 215
Duke Johnson 5.9 210
Theo Riddick 5.9 201
Melvin Gordon 6.1 207
Frank Gore 5.9 216


Not really sure what this group of players has in common or how it's relevant.

If you think it's so debatable that a RB can be an every down guy in today's NFL without high end balance/power or elite vision, why not present some examples? Or make a case why Christian McCaffrey, who never showed power and tackle breaking ability (outside of arm tackles in the open field) in college is going to develop that ability in the pros. If you believe strongly in him as a true feature back, then it should be easy to articulate a case for him other than "John Elway says it's true".

Quote:
CM can run at any time between the tackles


He didn't in college. What makes you think he will do so in the NFL against better talent?

Quote:
It like rolling Blount and White into one player


Laughing McCaffrey has almost nothing in common with Blount and little in common with White. Have you seen him play in college beyond a couple of clips on Youtube?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 32062
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhunt2402 wrote:
6.57 3 cone for McCaffrey. If he's on the board at 32 I think he might be the pick. I'd prefer Kareem Hunt in the 2/3rd round, but wouldn't hate the pick


I don't see it, unless they're moving on from Lewis or expecting to move on from White in 2018. They're not going to have McCaffrey replace Blount's role on the offense obviously and having Lewis/White/McCaffrey all active on game day is a waste. There's not enough touches to go around to warrant a 1st round pick unless one of the current RB's is leaving.

I like McCaffrey. I think he's going to be a really solid NFL player and put up pretty big numbers. But I don't really him as a fit in New England, given their current roster. And the value is really questionable with the team's defensive issues both short and long term.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dhunt2402


Moderator
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 26048
Location: The District
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
dhunt2402 wrote:
6.57 3 cone for McCaffrey. If he's on the board at 32 I think he might be the pick. I'd prefer Kareem Hunt in the 2/3rd round, but wouldn't hate the pick


I don't see it, unless they're moving on from Lewis or expecting to move on from White in 2018. They're not going to have McCaffrey replace Blount's role on the offense obviously and having Lewis/White/McCaffrey all active on game day is a waste. There's not enough touches to go around to warrant a 1st round pick unless one of the current RB's is leaving.

I like McCaffrey. I think he's going to be a really solid NFL player and put up pretty big numbers. But I don't really him as a fit in New England, given their current roster. And the value is really questionable with the team's defensive issues both short and long term.


I could see them moving on from Lewis this offseason. White isn't a guarantee to stay beyond 2017. I also think McCaffrey will be a better runner between the tackles than Blount, his vision is light years ahead of LG's. For all the talk of filling the "Blount" role, how much does that guy really bring to the table from a power, between the tackles standpoint? Versatility is ultimately what would drive a pick like this though. Imagine having a back who could command respect as a runner and a receiver at the same time...not allowing the defense to predict run/pass based on personnel. He's a mismatch wherever you line him up as a route runner. I think he's a Pro Bowler right out of the gate if he ends up in the right offense.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
m haynes


Joined: 29 Jan 2011
Posts: 1626
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhunt2402 wrote:
6.57 3 cone for McCaffrey. If he's on the board at 32 I think he might be the pick. I'd prefer Kareem Hunt in the 2/3rd round, but wouldn't hate the pick
Tough call. I rather go with a back later in the draft as you mentioned. I don't see him getting past Denver.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Starless


Joined: 05 Jan 2015
Posts: 11301
Location: The worst of all possible realities
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So is John Ross actually good, or just fast?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
m haynes


Joined: 29 Jan 2011
Posts: 1626
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MoJo63 wrote:
m haynes wrote:
MoJo63 wrote:
m haynes wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
m haynes wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
m haynes wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
McCaffrey's upside as a feature back depends on how his vision translates to the NFL. He's not a guy that breaks tackles all that well. He can get through some arm tackles and is elusive but between the tackles, I'm skeptical of him as an every down player.

He should be successful in the NFL but I'm not buying him as a 250 carry a year feature back


I have no concern that he a every back down. He had 600 rushing attempts in college the last two years. His college numbers IMO tell the story.
John Elway considers him a complete back.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/christian-mccaffrey-1.html

http://patriotswire.usatoday.com/2017/02/28/why-christian-mccaffrey-is-a-perfect-fit-with-patriots/

http://milehighsports.com/denver-broncos-contingent-meets-christian-mccaffrey/


Being an every down guy in college has nothing to do with having the skills to be an every down guy in the pros.
Your opinion, I disagree.


It's not an opinion. There are literally dozens of college feature backs who get drafted or signed as undrafted FA every year who fail to make rosters or are part time players. Kevin Faulk was an every down back in college. So was Shane Vereen. Darren Sproles had over 750 carries in 3 years as a starter. Ameer Abdullah was top 15 in carries during his career.

There aren't many every down backs in today's NFL. There are even fewer, if any, good ones who lack either elite balance/power and vision. You need to have either vision and explosiveness/agility or power and speed.

If you can give an example of an every down starter in the pros who doesn't have high end vision or power/vision, I'd be very surprised.


What guys do at college is largely irrelevant to how they project as pros. You have to look at the skill set more than the role or production. Tyler Gaffney had 330 carries for Stanford in 2013. He, clearly, lacks starting RB tools. Bobby Rainey had over 700 carries his final 2 years in school and was never considered to have every down tools.
Your opinion, I disagree.

emmitt smith 5'9 215
walter payton 5'10 200
Jamaal Charles 5 11 199
BenJarvus Green-Ellis 5 11 215
Tiki Barber 5-10 205
Thurman Thomas 5 10 206
Marcus Allen 6.2 210
doug martin 59 223
LeSean McCoy 5.11 211
Lamar Miller 5.11 212
C. J. Anderson 5.8 224
Tevin Coleman 61 205
Devonta Freeman 5.9 209
Javorius Allen 6.1 215
Duke Johnson 5.9 210
Theo Riddick 5.9 201
Melvin Gordon 6.1 207
Frank Gore 5.9 216

Christian McCaffrey , 6ft 200lbs, that just blew up the combine and has all those rushing yards can be a every down back.


It's not like Stanford plays a tough schedule in a tough conference there is always a lot to consider. I remember all the hype about Reggie Bush how great he was going to be and myself and a few others on my old board didn't see it that way. He reminds me of that. I think at best he will be a capable back in the NFL
There are thousand reason he can/can't. BB is not stupid, he will make changes. CM can run at any time between the tackles or flank out to WR, as a defensive coordinator, that has to be a nightmare. You can set up in a 5 wide and change to a between tackle play without switching personal. There are many ways you can use him as your full time back. The Pats can run a full play book without changes. The Pats are fast on offense. How fast would they be if Brady calls the plays and they have a player like CM that can run and catch. It like rolling Blount and White into one player.


Okay get past the whole he can run anytime between the tackles that simply is not the truth and damn sure not at an NFL level. And again no way the Pats (IMO) take a RB that early the likes of which they already have when there are glaring needs at other positions. You like him we get it, but the need is not there.


Quote:
Okay get past the whole he can run anytime between the tackles that simply is not the truth and damn sure not at an NFL level.


I'm trying to come up with a response to this ridicules statement. Sorry, I have nothing.

I never said I would pick him, however I'm not against it. I mostly like bigs at the top of the draft. Here what I'm hoping for at 32.

Taco Charlton, DE, Michigan
Derek Barnett, DE, Tennessee
Chris Wormley DL, Michigan
Forrest Lamp OL Western Kentucky

Oh ya, I want BB to trade the pick most of the time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 32062
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhunt2402 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
dhunt2402 wrote:
6.57 3 cone for McCaffrey. If he's on the board at 32 I think he might be the pick. I'd prefer Kareem Hunt in the 2/3rd round, but wouldn't hate the pick


I don't see it, unless they're moving on from Lewis or expecting to move on from White in 2018. They're not going to have McCaffrey replace Blount's role on the offense obviously and having Lewis/White/McCaffrey all active on game day is a waste. There's not enough touches to go around to warrant a 1st round pick unless one of the current RB's is leaving.

I like McCaffrey. I think he's going to be a really solid NFL player and put up pretty big numbers. But I don't really him as a fit in New England, given their current roster. And the value is really questionable with the team's defensive issues both short and long term.


I could see them moving on from Lewis this offseason. White isn't a guarantee to stay beyond 2017. I also think McCaffrey will be a better runner between the tackles than Blount, his vision is light years ahead of LG's. For all the talk of filling the "Blount" role, how much does that guy really bring to the table from a power, between the tackles standpoint? Versatility is ultimately what would drive a pick like this though. Imagine having a back who could command respect as a runner and a receiver at the same time...not allowing the defense to predict run/pass based on personnel. He's a mismatch wherever you line him up as a route runner. I think he's a Pro Bowler right out of the gate if he ends up in the right offense.


Belichick has always liked having a power back in his offense. McCaffrey isn't that guy. His vision is, indeed, light years better than Blount. But I don't see Belichick getting away from his desire to have that square framed 220 lbs type guy in his offense. It's not just being able to break tackles but IMO he is very attracted to the idea of a RB who can physically wear down defenses and can run with power.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
m haynes


Joined: 29 Jan 2011
Posts: 1626
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhunt2402 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
dhunt2402 wrote:
6.57 3 cone for McCaffrey. If he's on the board at 32 I think he might be the pick. I'd prefer Kareem Hunt in the 2/3rd round, but wouldn't hate the pick


I don't see it, unless they're moving on from Lewis or expecting to move on from White in 2018. They're not going to have McCaffrey replace Blount's role on the offense obviously and having Lewis/White/McCaffrey all active on game day is a waste. There's not enough touches to go around to warrant a 1st round pick unless one of the current RB's is leaving.

I like McCaffrey. I think he's going to be a really solid NFL player and put up pretty big numbers. But I don't really him as a fit in New England, given their current roster. And the value is really questionable with the team's defensive issues both short and long term.


I could see them moving on from Lewis this offseason. White isn't a guarantee to stay beyond 2017. I also think McCaffrey will be a better runner between the tackles than Blount, his vision is light years ahead of LG's. For all the talk of filling the "Blount" role, how much does that guy really bring to the table from a power, between the tackles standpoint? Versatility is ultimately what would drive a pick like this though. Imagine having a back who could command respect as a runner and a receiver at the same time...not allowing the defense to predict run/pass based on personnel. He's a mismatch wherever you line him up as a route runner. I think he's a Pro Bowler right out of the gate if he ends up in the right offense.
I agree with both of you. He such a intriguing pick.
Trying to figure out what BB will do is impossible. The possibilities with him on the Pats offense is scary!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
m haynes


Joined: 29 Jan 2011
Posts: 1626
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
dhunt2402 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
dhunt2402 wrote:
6.57 3 cone for McCaffrey. If he's on the board at 32 I think he might be the pick. I'd prefer Kareem Hunt in the 2/3rd round, but wouldn't hate the pick


I don't see it, unless they're moving on from Lewis or expecting to move on from White in 2018. They're not going to have McCaffrey replace Blount's role on the offense obviously and having Lewis/White/McCaffrey all active on game day is a waste. There's not enough touches to go around to warrant a 1st round pick unless one of the current RB's is leaving.

I like McCaffrey. I think he's going to be a really solid NFL player and put up pretty big numbers. But I don't really him as a fit in New England, given their current roster. And the value is really questionable with the team's defensive issues both short and long term.


I could see them moving on from Lewis this offseason. White isn't a guarantee to stay beyond 2017. I also think McCaffrey will be a better runner between the tackles than Blount, his vision is light years ahead of LG's. For all the talk of filling the "Blount" role, how much does that guy really bring to the table from a power, between the tackles standpoint? Versatility is ultimately what would drive a pick like this though. Imagine having a back who could command respect as a runner and a receiver at the same time...not allowing the defense to predict run/pass based on personnel. He's a mismatch wherever you line him up as a route runner. I think he's a Pro Bowler right out of the gate if he ends up in the right offense.


Belichick has always liked having a power back in his offense. McCaffrey isn't that guy. His vision is, indeed, light years better than Blount. But I don't see Belichick getting away from his desire to have that square framed 220 lbs type guy in his offense. It's not just being able to break tackles but IMO he is very attracted to the idea of a RB who can physically wear down defenses and can run with power.


I agree, but you brought couple of possibility in your last comment. I like your thought process with Lewis/White. Keep Blount or draft Hunt/Conner/Hood in the later rounds. Here another thought, CM creates a roster spot, no need for the two 3rd down backs.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
m haynes


Joined: 29 Jan 2011
Posts: 1626
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
m haynes wrote:
your opinion, I disagree.


I didn't present an opinion. I presented facts. Namely, college success and usage patterns has had no correlation to pro success or usage when it comes to RB's. Plenty of good NFL every down RB's have been limited successes in college. And tons (the vast majority) of successful every down college backs have failed to be solid NFL every down backs

Quote:

emmitt smith 5'9 215
walter payton 5'10 200
Jamaal Charles 5 11 199
BenJarvus Green-Ellis 5 11 215
Tiki Barber 5-10 205
Thurman Thomas 5 10 206
Marcus Allen 6.2 210
doug martin 59 223
LeSean McCoy 5.11 211
Lamar Miller 5.11 212
C. J. Anderson 5.8 224
Tevin Coleman 61 205
Devonta Freeman 5.9 209
Javorius Allen 6.1 215
Duke Johnson 5.9 210
Theo Riddick 5.9 201
Melvin Gordon 6.1 207
Frank Gore 5.9 216


Not really sure what this group of players has in common or how it's relevant.

If you think it's so debatable that a RB can be an every down guy in today's NFL without high end balance/power or elite vision, why not present some examples? Or make a case why Christian McCaffrey, who never showed power and tackle breaking ability (outside of arm tackles in the open field) in college is going to develop that ability in the pros. If you believe strongly in him as a true feature back, then it should be easy to articulate a case for him other than "John Elway says it's true".

Quote:
CM can run at any time between the tackles


He didn't in college. What makes you think he will do so in the NFL against better talent?

Quote:
It like rolling Blount and White into one player


Laughing McCaffrey has almost nothing in common with Blount and little in common with White. Have you seen him play in college beyond a couple of clips on Youtube?

your opinion, I disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
patsfan06


Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 5936
Location: Waltham
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pass on an early round back unless it's Fournette (not happening).

Otherwise, count me all in on Brian Hill in the middle rounds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
goldfishwars


Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Posts: 11937
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starless wrote:
So is John Ross actually good, or just fast?


He's both, but also hurt a lot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deadpulse


Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 12705
Location: Boston MA
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

goldfishwars wrote:
Starless wrote:
So is John Ross actually good, or just fast?


He's both, but also hurt a lot.


Im not convinced. A lot of his knocks are those classic knocks that make him a great collegiate but a bad pro. He struggles against physical corners, doesnt do well taking big hits and has shied away from them, doesn't catch the ball in traffic, and is not a smooth route runner often stumbling in and out of them. He is will have a lot of the same struggles that Dobson had IMO.
_________________

Sigs-Taking Requests
2016 Adpot-A-Patriot: Jimmy Garropolo
70% 496yds 4 TD 0 INT 117.1 PR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
goldfishwars


Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Posts: 11937
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deadpulse wrote:
goldfishwars wrote:
Starless wrote:
So is John Ross actually good, or just fast?


He's both, but also hurt a lot.


Im not convinced. A lot of his knocks are those classic knocks that make him a great collegiate but a bad pro. He struggles against physical corners, doesnt do well taking big hits and has shied away from them, doesn't catch the ball in traffic, and is not a smooth route runner often stumbling in and out of them. He is will have a lot of the same struggles that Dobson had IMO.


Depends what you want him to do. Agree he struggles to get off press, but his speed is so outrageous that you find ways to help get him a free release like the Colts do with TY Hilton. He's a big play threat and that brings other benefits in clearing space for others. Nobody was ever worried about Dobson hurting them deep.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deadpulse


Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 12705
Location: Boston MA
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

goldfishwars wrote:
Deadpulse wrote:
goldfishwars wrote:
Starless wrote:
So is John Ross actually good, or just fast?


He's both, but also hurt a lot.


Im not convinced. A lot of his knocks are those classic knocks that make him a great collegiate but a bad pro. He struggles against physical corners, doesnt do well taking big hits and has shied away from them, doesn't catch the ball in traffic, and is not a smooth route runner often stumbling in and out of them. He is will have a lot of the same struggles that Dobson had IMO.


Depends what you want him to do. Agree he struggles to get off press, but his speed is so outrageous that you find ways to help get him a free release like the Colts do with TY Hilton. He's a big play threat and that brings other benefits in clearing space for others. Nobody was ever worried about Dobson hurting them deep.


I didnt just say press coverage. Any kind of man on man in the NFL is likely to give him fits because A) Its more physical, especially with the ball in the air, and B) His speed is mitigated by not being able to run a clean route.

He can be a useful player in the NFL as a deep threat, but he is not a 1st round pick IMO. He will never be a top 10 receiver in this league, or a #1 receiver on any team unless your like 2006 Patriots bad at WR.
_________________

Sigs-Taking Requests
2016 Adpot-A-Patriot: Jimmy Garropolo
70% 496yds 4 TD 0 INT 117.1 PR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> New England Patriots All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 6 of 10

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group