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Kubiak retires ends tenure in Denver
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AnAngryAmerican


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 19440
Location: Loveland, CO
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ElJefe7 wrote:
AAA, you are telling me there is zero chance of Mike SHanahan's shadow causing a distraction in Denver? That is delusional. Whenever you have a figure that big, his name is going to cast a shadow. Already, every time there is a national report on Denver they reference Kyle SHanahan, the son of former Denver Super Bowl coach Mike Shanahan. To say there is no chance of the distraction is crazy. It happens in every type of corporate environment to think that this is any different is being selectively one-sided. First and foremost, coaching is a people business. All that needs to happen is for people to just have an inkling in their minds that Kyle got the job because of his father and that is the making of a distraction. I think you are drastically underestimating the human element of this.

What I'm saying is I don't foresee Mike's shadow causing a problem. Sure it's there but I don't think having that shadow is a reason not to hire Kyle. He's always going to be Mike's son, whether he's the HC here or in San Diego or Jacksonville or San Fran, where Mike also has roots. Should those teams also not hire him because he's the son of a potential HOF coach?

The media's "Kyle is the son of Mike" is just how the media operates. From 2012-2016 the national media never called us "the Denver Broncos" it was always "Peyton Manning and the Denver Broncos." Did the shadow cast by Elway (as a QB) preclude us from signing Peyton or cause problems when he was here? Did the shadow cast by Peyton make Elway reticent to trade up for Lynch in the first round? Did Trevor Siemian appear to be intimidated this year on the field given that a pair of first-ballot HOF'ers played on that same grass?

Who's thinking that Kyle got the job because he's Mike's son, you or the players in the locker room? Because the former isn't a problem while the latter could be, thus the onus is on Kyle to prove he's his own man and earned this job on merit. Yet given the strength of our organization and the faith the players have in it, that might not be the problem you expect it to be.

Here's Von, the face of the franchise, the other day at BSN Denver:

Quote:
“I trust him 100 percent, him [Vice President of Football Operations John Elway] and Mr. [President and CEO Joe] Ellis and all of those guys. We have a championship organization here. It’s been a championship organization since before I was here and it will be a championship organization after I’m gone,” Miller stated. “I trust those guys with everything. Mr. Elway is the man on the football field and off the football field."

From that it appears that Von, and by extension I assume the vast majority of players in the locker room, are going to trust the choice that Elway and Ellis make on our next head coach.

I'll concede that I guess there is a potential that Kyle being Mike's son could cause a distraction. But I think the odds of that distraction being a problem to such an extent that it becomes detrimental to the team's chances for success on the field are awfully low. This organization is solid as a rock and by all accounts Kyle has the chops to be a NFL head coach.

If Kyle isn't your top choice, that's fine. As I've said plenty of times I would be happy with any of the three based on what I know right now. I also trust Elway to make the right decision.
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AAA is right, as he usually is.
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AnAngryAmerican


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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Location: Loveland, CO
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
AAA, I don't think it's a matter of questioning decisions that are made, but Mike stuck his neck out and caused waves for his son before. If the relationship is still thorny, I could see him maybe making public comments or something if things get rough.

So the scenario your envisioning is something akin to this:

Kyle is the HC and we go through a stretch where we go, say, 1-3 and the offense sputters. Then Monday Mike goes on The Drive, or some similarly small-minded outlet, and throws Elway under the bus? Or the players? Or both?

I suppose there's a chance that happens. I guess. It doesn't really seem like Mike's style though. I don't think he's going to want to do anything that puts Kyle in a bad situation, or makes a bad situation worse. Mike isn't a throw gasoline on the fire type of guy. If you watch/listen to his appearance on the Colin Cowherd show he was extremely complimentary towards Elway and the Broncos organization.

broncos67 wrote:
What I think is most interesting is why people aren't caring more about the past reports that Kyle has a thorny personality, and only realized in ATL that he needed to connect more with his players personally. If the same thing were said about McDaniels (and it was), people would be dragging his name through the mud (deservedly so after the last debacle.)

My point here is- Kyle appears to also have some personality quirks that doomed Josh McDaniels here, and those shouldn't be overlooked because his last name is Shanahan or because he runs a high-octane offense. Being divisive or off-putting is a great way to lose a locker room.

Now, as I've said, I still think Kyle would make a good HC, but he most definitely needs to demonstrate that he can be personable, engaging, put his players interests first, and manage a locker room not just an individual unit. Maybe he can, maybe he can't. I don't really care about the stories that say he's eyeing Denver as a location because any coach in their right mind who wants a coaching gig should consider Denver a top spot. It's not a one way street when it comes to a coaching search.

On all of this I agree. And that is something of which we should cognizant if he's hired here. Yet I read this interesting nugget from Falcons SB Nation reporter Jeanna Thomas, via MHR, the other day.

Quote:
Jeanna Thomas: There was a fair amount of push back from Roddy White and other offensive players last season, and Shanahan was intractable, even as the team was in the midst of its six-game losing streak. This season, though, the players trust him and those relationships seem to be solid.

He did get off to a rough start, but the way he's repaired and built those relationships has been impressive. One thing players respect about Shanahan is how well he understands their skill sets and how he can best feature them in the offense, which we've seen the results of with guys like Taylor Gabriel and Aldrick Robinson.

I've read other accounts elsewhere saying the same thing, that Kyle has learned from his mistakes on the interpersonal level with players and this year in Atlanta the guys have really responded well to him. One account, and I'm going to try to find it, said that Kyle's age and that fact that he grew up around NFL players has helped him be able to build good relationships with the guys in locker room.

The other part of this where it's not entirely analogous to the comparisons with Mac is that Kyle won't have carte blanche over the entire franchise the way Mac did. In 2009-10 Ellis and Xanders sat tight-lipped in the backseat while Mac drove the Broncos car off the cliff. In 2017, Elway is one with his hands and steering wheel and Kyle (or whomever our HC is) rides shotgun.
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big_palooka:

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AAA is right, as he usually is.


Last edited by AnAngryAmerican on Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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KingBishop


Joined: 29 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Gary for everything.
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bobdevine


Joined: 24 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ElJefe7 wrote:
AAA, you are telling me there is zero chance of Mike SHanahan's shadow causing a distraction in Denver? That is delusional. Whenever you have a figure that big, his name is going to cast a shadow.


I think that Shanahan casts a shadow, but the shadow is small. He was fired about a decade ago and the wounds have since healed. The story is an easy one to write, it's almost Shakespearian about a son stepping into a father's footprint. But the reality is more complicated -- a father can open the door but the son has to prove their worth. Kyle Shanahan is his own person and has shown his skills as a top coach.

Mike Shanahan retains good standing among fans and he will not hurt those fan feelings by showing bitterness now. And the Broncos have moved on from his era. Elway is certainly aware of the old issues, but that didn't prevent him from requesting an interview with Kyle Shanahan.

Will there be a distraction? Sure, but it will be small and short-lived. If Kyle is hired as head coach, I expect that reporters will write son-vs-father stories. Kyle might find that legacy to be a negative wherever he decides to go. The same thing happened to the sons of Lombardi, Shula, and dozens of others.
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AnAngryAmerican


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bobdevine wrote:
Will there be a distraction? Sure, but it will be small and short-lived. If Kyle is hired as head coach, I expect that reporters will write son-vs-father stories. Kyle might find that legacy to be a negative wherever he decides to go. The same thing happened to the sons of Lombardi, Shula, and dozens of others.

We don't even have to look that far - Wade and Bum Phillips. Isn't Wade's Twitter handle "SonOfBum"? Wade got his first opportunity on his dad's staff, proved his worth, and is now a HOF DC. Furthermore, Wade's son Wes coaches for the Redskins. The history of the NFL is littered with examples of fathers and sons who've coached.
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big_palooka:

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Broncofan


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:

Who's thinking that Kyle got the job because he's Mike's son, you or the players in the locker room? Because the former isn't a problem while the latter could be, thus the onus is on Kyle to prove he's his own man and earned this job on merit. Yet given the strength of our organization and the faith the players have in it, that might not be the problem you expect it to be.

I'll concede that I guess there is a potential that Kyle being Mike's son could cause a distraction. But I think the odds of that distraction being a problem to such an extent that it becomes detrimental to the team's chances for success on the field are awfully low. This organization is solid as a rock and by all accounts Kyle has the chops to be a NFL head coach.


No one can argue there is zero risk to any hire not being questioned later on, if things don't work out. But in the end, as AAA points out, it doesn't matter if we see a problem, it only matters if the players & coaches see it as a problem.

And here's the thing - the vets have seen Elway make the hard call - firing Fox, letting some of the high-priced FA's we couldn't afford walk. Offering low tenders to RFA's. And it's always been in the team's best interests, as a business. Then we get to a decision as crucial, if not more, for the head coach position, and somehow Elway's going to make a decision that isn't 100 percent in the team's best interest, business-wise? I know some football players aren't that bright, but that's a huge stretch. Is it zero? Sure, likely not. Is it significant? Just my opinion, but not at all.

If Elway isn't hiring Shanahan, it won't be to avoid the specter of his dad's history. Elway is unafraid to make the bold move - he won't be making a hire to avoid controversy. This is the guy who let Tebow go when every casual fan thought he was literally the next big thing, and let Fox go 1 season removed from a SB entry.

Elway's lock on this team is so firm it's hard any player, coach, or even ticket salesman would think Elway is making anything but the best decision for the team business-wise, all outside factors be damned. Doesn't guarantee he'll be right, either, but his motivations behind the decision are hardly likely to come into question.
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Last edited by Broncofan on Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beautifully said, Broncofan. Your contributions here have been excellent for a long time, you're one of this forum's MVPs.

I know it's MHR, but here are two good reads on Kyle that are worth checking out.

Kyle Shanahan Would be a HC Who Fits His Schemes to His Personnel

Get to Know Kyle Shanahan

Edit. And here's a good one from BSN Denver, which does outstanding work, I'd highly recommend subscribing to their podcasts, on Vance Joseph.

Vance Joseph’s former teammates and players voice support for his head coaching candidacy
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big_palooka:

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champ11


Joined: 14 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
Beautifully said, Broncofan. Your contributions here have been excellent for a long time, you're one of this forum's MVPs.

I know it's MHR, but here are two good reads on Kyle that are worth checking out.

Kyle Shanahan Would be a HC Who Fits His Schemes to His Personnel

Get to Know Kyle Shanahan

Edit. And here's a good one from BSN Denver, which does outstanding work, I'd highly recommend subscribing to their podcasts, on Vance Joseph.

Vance Joseph’s former teammates and players voice support for his head coaching candidacy


+1 on BSN. I listen to most of their podcasts and they have the best Nuggets stuff in town.
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team rammy

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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingBishop wrote:
Thank you Gary for everything.


Absolutely!!

IMO the thing Gary brought was complete professionalism and preparedness. I don't look at a HC much through X's and O's. That's OC/DC stuff. The readiness to play on Sunday is the HC.

That was my issue with Fox. Too many times he put a team on the field that was just not ready and got beat by lesser opponents. I think in Gary's tenure that only happened once, a few weeks ago in KC.

If a guys outcoached, Okay. If he makes a bad call or is too conservative or bold, that's okay too. Not having your team ready to play at it's highest level however is not okay.

That was an extremely rare occurrence with Kubiak, something I hope will continue with Elways next choice.
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champ11


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
KingBishop wrote:
Thank you Gary for everything.


Absolutely!!

IMO the thing Gary brought was complete professionalism and preparedness. I don't look at a HC much through X's and O's. That's OC/DC stuff. The readiness to play on Sunday is the HC.

That was my issue with Fox. Too many times he put a team on the field that was just not ready and got beat by lesser opponents. I think in Gary's tenure that only happened once, a few weeks ago in KC.

If a guys outcoached, Okay. If he makes a bad call or is too conservative or bold, that's okay too. Not having your team ready to play at it's highest level however is not okay.

That was an extremely rare occurrence with Kubiak, something I hope will continue with Elways next choice.


And all of our big personalities loved him. That's not easy to do. I want that in the next coach more than anything. Shoutout to Gary. Good post AK.

Shanahan was the goat for having 2-4 games a year when the team didn't show up.
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team rammy

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elliot878


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

champ11 wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
Beautifully said, Broncofan. Your contributions here have been excellent for a long time, you're one of this forum's MVPs.

I know it's MHR, but here are two good reads on Kyle that are worth checking out.

Kyle Shanahan Would be a HC Who Fits His Schemes to His Personnel

Get to Know Kyle Shanahan

Edit. And here's a good one from BSN Denver, which does outstanding work, I'd highly recommend subscribing to their podcasts, on Vance Joseph.

Vance Joseph’s former teammates and players voice support for his head coaching candidacy


+1 on BSN. I listen to most of their podcasts and they have the best Nuggets stuff in town.


I've missed a few pages, but I'm not going to read back. Things look civil, which is nice.

I've been thinking though, I'm pretty comfortable with every candidate we've scheduled an interview with.

Shanahan - Might be better than anyone at scheming players open. No more of the same old predictability. He'll get the most out of skill players, especially the gadget types that we've never known how to use effectively.

Joseph - He gets so much out of his players. I love any candidate who can do more with less and Vance Joseph is exactly that.

Toub - Don't know much about the guy but he's so highly regarded around the league and this isn't a league where there's just lip service for no reason. I like the CEO approach he's likely to take.

Lynn - Don't think he wins the job, but meteoric rise, a familiarity with the organizations winning culture, and what he did with the Bills offense was pretty impressive.
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Broncofan


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elliot878 wrote:
champ11 wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
Beautifully said, Broncofan. Your contributions here have been excellent for a long time, you're one of this forum's MVPs.

I know it's MHR, but here are two good reads on Kyle that are worth checking out.

Kyle Shanahan Would be a HC Who Fits His Schemes to His Personnel

Get to Know Kyle Shanahan

Edit. And here's a good one from BSN Denver, which does outstanding work, I'd highly recommend subscribing to their podcasts, on Vance Joseph.

Vance Joseph’s former teammates and players voice support for his head coaching candidacy


+1 on BSN. I listen to most of their podcasts and they have the best Nuggets stuff in town.


I've missed a few pages, but I'm not going to read back. Things look civil, which is nice.

I've been thinking though, I'm pretty comfortable with every candidate we've scheduled an interview with.

Shanahan - Might be better than anyone at scheming players open. No more of the same old predictability. He'll get the most out of skill players, especially the gadget types that we've never known how to use effectively.

Joseph - He gets so much out of his players. I love any candidate who can do more with less and Vance Joseph is exactly that.

Toub - Don't know much about the guy but he's so highly regarded around the league and this isn't a league where there's just lip service for no reason. I like the CEO approach he's likely to take.

Lynn - Don't think he wins the job, but meteoric rise, a familiarity with the organizations winning culture, and what he did with the Bills offense was pretty impressive.


Generally I agree with all of above - but Alex Marvez reports that Joseph would not keep Wade if he were hired (link in other thread). If that's true (a big if) it's the first real differentiator between the candidates and IMO knocks Joseph well below the others.
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steelpanther wrote:
This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elliot878 wrote:

Toub - Don't know much about the guy but he's so highly regarded around the league and this isn't a league where there's just lip service for no reason. I like the CEO approach he's likely to take.


That's a great reason to like him.
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KingBishop


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

champ11 wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
KingBishop wrote:
Thank you Gary for everything.


Absolutely!!

IMO the thing Gary brought was complete professionalism and preparedness. I don't look at a HC much through X's and O's. That's OC/DC stuff. The readiness to play on Sunday is the HC.

That was my issue with Fox. Too many times he put a team on the field that was just not ready and got beat by lesser opponents. I think in Gary's tenure that only happened once, a few weeks ago in KC.

If a guys outcoached, Okay. If he makes a bad call or is too conservative or bold, that's okay too. Not having your team ready to play at it's highest level however is not okay.

That was an extremely rare occurrence with Kubiak, something I hope will continue with Elways next choice.


And all of our big personalities loved him. That's not easy to do. I want that in the next coach more than anything. Shoutout to Gary. Good post AK.

Shanahan was the goat for having 2-4 games a year when the team didn't show up.


And that is why I want Toub. From all accounts he connects with his players. I agree we need that. I don't know if Shanny gives us that!
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BroncoBruin


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty sure guys like Talib, Ward etc. on the defense will have no problem embracing the guy who absolutely schooled them schematically last year. Players respect natural leaders who show they care about individuals, but they also respect high level football acumen as long as it isn't accompanied by Mac-like arrogance.
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