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Week 17 GDT: Green Bay Packers (9-6) @ Detroit Lions (9-6)
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

detroitroar wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
Honestly, can't blame that game on officials. We were outmatched and outclassed. We lack too much talent right now.

Cant agree with that.

They may be better, but not by that much. Those holding and non-holding penalties are huge. They will literally put points on, or off the board.

I saw 3 blatant non calls on Ansah.

They call that ticky-tac hold on Slay, then dont throw the flag on that last play?

And how about the poor spot which we got overturned? The refs is right in front of it and he still mis-spots it by a full yard? How????

I never believed in this crap before but I do now. The league has some agenda.


Legitimate question, do you have GIFs to support that? Or is this at game time speed?

I'm legitimately asking, because the Packers are usually one of the least flagged teams in the league (they're 23rd in offensive penalties, tied with Detroit and 17th in defensive penalties) and they ended up with five more penalties than the Lions for an extra 45 yards. Instead, why don't you compare 3rd down conversion percent. I think the Lions were something like 3-5 in the first half, and that dropped to 2-7 in the second half. The Packers were something like 2-6 or something like that in the first half and finished 7-13.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
detroitroar wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
Honestly, can't blame that game on officials. We were outmatched and outclassed. We lack too much talent right now.

Cant agree with that.

They may be better, but not by that much. Those holding and non-holding penalties are huge. They will literally put points on, or off the board.

I saw 3 blatant non calls on Ansah.

They call that ticky-tac hold on Slay, then dont throw the flag on that last play?

And how about the poor spot which we got overturned? The refs is right in front of it and he still mis-spots it by a full yard? How????

I never believed in this crap before but I do now. The league has some agenda.


Legitimate question, do you have GIFs to support that? Or is this at game time speed?

I'm legitimately asking, because the Packers are usually one of the least flagged teams in the league (they're 23rd in offensive penalties, tied with Detroit and 17th in defensive penalties) and they ended up with five more penalties than the Lions for an extra 45 yards. Instead, why don't you compare 3rd down conversion percent. I think the Lions were something like 3-5 in the first half, and that dropped to 2-7 in the second half. The Packers were something like 2-6 or something like that in the first half and finished 7-13.

As pointed out before, a bunch of calls made against Detroit were declined. Number of enforced penalties isn't an accurate barometer of balanced officiating.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
As pointed out before, a bunch of calls made against Detroit were declined. Number of enforced penalties isn't an accurate barometer of balanced officiating.


I'm still missing the issue. So because the Lions successfully completed the play, and the penalties didn't help them the reffing was against them? It's just an arbitrary benchmark to make. As I said before, is there any GIFs where the refs missed obvious penalties but didn't throw a flag. I think we'd all agree that reffing wasn't very good last night, but the notion that the league had it for the Lions or somehow that the refs are favoring the Packers is hogwash. The Lions were competing 3rd downs in the first half at a high rate and the Packers weren't. In the 2nd half, it was the opposite. Beyond that, the Packers ran the ball more effectively, didn't turn the ball over, and controlled the clock. I find it incredibly hard to believe that the referees directly influenced those things.
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Nnivolcm


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
As pointed out before, a bunch of calls made against Detroit were declined. Number of enforced penalties isn't an accurate barometer of balanced officiating.


I'm still missing the issue. So because the Lions successfully completed the play, and the penalties didn't help them the reffing was against them? It's just an arbitrary benchmark to make. As I said before, is there any GIFs where the refs missed obvious penalties but didn't throw a flag. I think we'd all agree that reffing wasn't very good last night, but the notion that the league had it for the Lions or somehow that the refs are favoring the Packers is hogwash. The Lions were competing 3rd downs in the first half at a high rate and the Packers weren't. In the 2nd half, it was the opposite. Beyond that, the Packers ran the ball more effectively, didn't turn the ball over, and controlled the clock. I find it incredibly hard to believe that the referees directly influenced those things.


I could resubscribe to the NFL Game Pass on NFL.com and show you several pictures of Bakhtiari with a near head lock on Ansah that didn't result in a flag and I have a feeling you'd still be missing the issue.

The issue was that the Packers were egregiously holding, both offensively and defensively, and rarely got called. While the Lions got called for every little thing (and some things so little no one saw them). Lie to yourself and say that it didn't happen or that that kind of behavior doesn't influence games if you want, but you're not going to impress anyone by playing stupid here.
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incognito_man


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nnivolcm wrote:
CWood21 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
As pointed out before, a bunch of calls made against Detroit were declined. Number of enforced penalties isn't an accurate barometer of balanced officiating.


I'm still missing the issue. So because the Lions successfully completed the play, and the penalties didn't help them the reffing was against them? It's just an arbitrary benchmark to make. As I said before, is there any GIFs where the refs missed obvious penalties but didn't throw a flag. I think we'd all agree that reffing wasn't very good last night, but the notion that the league had it for the Lions or somehow that the refs are favoring the Packers is hogwash. The Lions were competing 3rd downs in the first half at a high rate and the Packers weren't. In the 2nd half, it was the opposite. Beyond that, the Packers ran the ball more effectively, didn't turn the ball over, and controlled the clock. I find it incredibly hard to believe that the referees directly influenced those things.


I could resubscribe to the NFL Game Pass on NFL.com and show you several pictures of Bakhtiari with a near head lock on Ansah that didn't result in a flag and I have a feeling you'd still be missing the issue.

The issue was that the Packers were egregiously holding, both offensively and defensively, and rarely got called. While the Lions got called for every little thing (and some things so little no one saw them). Lie to yourself and say that it didn't happen or that that kind of behavior doesn't influence games if you want, but you're not going to impress anyone by playing stupid here.


dang, lions got called for "every little thing" and only had 5 enforced penalties. That sounds like they played mistake-free football. That usually results in a blow-out win. What happened?
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlitzKarma wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
BlitzKarma wrote:
detroitroar wrote:
BlitzKarma wrote:
detroitroar wrote:
So back to Caldwell, are we strictly looking at in game decisions? Cause thats one of many factors. And I again I would argue, he has made some good ones, though some may not remember them cause Stafford or Slay stole the show at the end, and coaches (like QB's), tend to get too much blame.

To anyone who wants to get rid of Caldwell regardless: Is there a clear upgrade in mind?


A football team takes on the personality of it's HC. Far too often, the Lions start games in a coma that they never wake up from until the 4th quarter.

I want a HC that has the team ready to rip off someone's head and crap down their neck. ( Figuratively speaking of course.)

Most of the best HC's ever dont fit that mold.

You can find tons of hot-heads; hell, we had one before Caldwell.

I just tend to think whatever this teams faults are, are more roster related, than coaching.


I am not saying that HC has to be a hot head. You can get your team rabbid without being a hot head. You can also have so little personality that you put your team into a coma!


All you see is Caldwell at the podium or on the sideline. As fans we have ZERO knowledge of how he relates to the players and the motivation tactics he uses.

I certainly think his sideline presence is superior to Schwartz who was simply a hot head and embarrassed the organization publicly numerous times with his childish temper. The players seemed to mimic him with their attitudes as well. In previous posts you state you wanted him to have one more season yet he only had one decent season which saw the Lions get smoked by the Saints in the first round.

What did he achieve that warranted another year?

Also, you want Caldwell gone yet I haven't seen you suggest who would be a valid replacement.

Exactly who should the Lions target to be head coach?


Apparently, you missed the part of here I suggested Josh McDaniels.

And what did Jim Schwartz do to deserve 1 more year. He took over an 0-16 team and made them very competitive. Do you think you can go from 0-16 to a super bowl in less than 5 years? Sure, he was a hot head. But, there have been plenty of hot head HCs that have won it all. He was a rookie HC when we hired him. And I think he was improving and learning from his mistakes.


Jim Schwartz had 5 years, made the playoffs once, got blown out and the team regressed and he couldn't get them over the hump.

You may think he was improving and that's fine but it's an assumption.

5 years is a large enough sample size. It's notable that other teams haven't been willing to give him a HC gig either.

The last thing I want to see is the Lions fire a head coach that has achieved success to replace him with a retread HC. McDaniels may or may not have matured and learned from his mistakes but I certainly don't want a McDaniels experiment in Detroit. He destroyed the Bronco's, lost the confidence of the players and simply made a mess of his opportunity.

Pat Bowlen is a great guy, easy to work for and allows staff a great deal of freedom. If you can't be successful working for him it's unlikely you're going to be successful.
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlitzKarma wrote:
And, for the record. You can have a calm sideline demeanor without putting your team into a coma. Caldwell induces comas. Which would not be a bad thing, IF IT WAS THE OTHER TEAM HE PUT INTO A COMA!!!


Laughing Sorry but being a mature reasoned presence is hardly coma inducing.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

incognito_man wrote:
dang, lions got called for "every little thing" and only had 5 enforced penalties. That sounds like they played mistake-free football. That usually results in a blow-out win. What happened?

What? Mistakes only appear on the number of enforced penalties on a stat sheet?
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Spartacus1337


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
incognito_man wrote:
dang, lions got called for "every little thing" and only had 5 enforced penalties. That sounds like they played mistake-free football. That usually results in a blow-out win. What happened?

What? Mistakes only appear on the number of enforced penalties on a stat sheet?


I'm not in here to start anything but the issue I have with this is that your using a whole heap of confirmation bias. I was in your forum a couple of different times and it was blatantly obvious that a number of posters were looking for penalties (Calls or no calls) for the packers.

Yet, on one play the packers converted a 1st down only to have it called back on a block in the back penalty that was obviously not a block in the back. I go into your forum after and no one even mentioned that the refs screwed up. Every post around it is trashing the refs but an obvious penalty that wasn't is not even brought up.

I know our line holds. Its a veteran line that knows how to get away with holding as they mostly keep there hands inside. That is a taught veteran move. Most well coached O lines you will see the same strategy employed. I guarantee you that the Lions are doing the same thing on most plays and if I play the line in slow motion I will see a lot of the same holds.

I'm not in here to trash your forum even if I was pretty harsh on game day but if your going to complain that the league is rigged or the Packers cheat I wholeheartedly disagree. Your just seeing what you want to see when you want to see it and ignoring all the evidence that points to your team getting the same benefits/negatives.
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theuntouchable


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
BlitzKarma wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
BlitzKarma wrote:
detroitroar wrote:
BlitzKarma wrote:
detroitroar wrote:
So back to Caldwell, are we strictly looking at in game decisions? Cause thats one of many factors. And I again I would argue, he has made some good ones, though some may not remember them cause Stafford or Slay stole the show at the end, and coaches (like QB's), tend to get too much blame.

To anyone who wants to get rid of Caldwell regardless: Is there a clear upgrade in mind?


A football team takes on the personality of it's HC. Far too often, the Lions start games in a coma that they never wake up from until the 4th quarter.

I want a HC that has the team ready to rip off someone's head and crap down their neck. ( Figuratively speaking of course.)

Most of the best HC's ever dont fit that mold.

You can find tons of hot-heads; hell, we had one before Caldwell.

I just tend to think whatever this teams faults are, are more roster related, than coaching.


I am not saying that HC has to be a hot head. You can get your team rabbid without being a hot head. You can also have so little personality that you put your team into a coma!


All you see is Caldwell at the podium or on the sideline. As fans we have ZERO knowledge of how he relates to the players and the motivation tactics he uses.

I certainly think his sideline presence is superior to Schwartz who was simply a hot head and embarrassed the organization publicly numerous times with his childish temper. The players seemed to mimic him with their attitudes as well. In previous posts you state you wanted him to have one more season yet he only had one decent season which saw the Lions get smoked by the Saints in the first round.

What did he achieve that warranted another year?

Also, you want Caldwell gone yet I haven't seen you suggest who would be a valid replacement.

Exactly who should the Lions target to be head coach?


Apparently, you missed the part of here I suggested Josh McDaniels.

And what did Jim Schwartz do to deserve 1 more year. He took over an 0-16 team and made them very competitive. Do you think you can go from 0-16 to a super bowl in less than 5 years? Sure, he was a hot head. But, there have been plenty of hot head HCs that have won it all. He was a rookie HC when we hired him. And I think he was improving and learning from his mistakes.


Jim Schwartz had 5 years, made the playoffs once, got blown out and the team regressed and he couldn't get them over the hump.

You may think he was improving and that's fine but it's an assumption.

5 years is a large enough sample size. It's notable that other teams haven't been willing to give him a HC gig either.

The last thing I want to see is the Lions fire a head coach that has achieved success to replace him with a retread HC. McDaniels may or may not have matured and learned from his mistakes but I certainly don't want a McDaniels experiment in Detroit. He destroyed the Bronco's, lost the confidence of the players and simply made a mess of his opportunity.

Pat Bowlen is a great guy, easy to work for and allows staff a great deal of freedom. If you can't be successful working for him it's unlikely you're going to be successful.


There's not much out there right now that would be a clear upgrade. However, if NO truly plans on moving away from Sean Payton, I'd be game to doing everything to get him.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus1337 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
incognito_man wrote:
dang, lions got called for "every little thing" and only had 5 enforced penalties. That sounds like they played mistake-free football. That usually results in a blow-out win. What happened?

What? Mistakes only appear on the number of enforced penalties on a stat sheet?


I'm not in here to start anything but the issue I have with this is that your using a whole heap of confirmation bias. I was in your forum a couple of different times and it was blatantly obvious that a number of posters were looking for penalties (Calls or no calls) for the packers.

Yet, on one play the packers converted a 1st down only to have it called back on a block in the back penalty that was obviously not a block in the back. I go into your forum after and no one even mentioned that the refs screwed up. Every post around it is trashing the refs but an obvious penalty that wasn't is not even brought up.

I know our line holds. Its a veteran line that knows how to get away with holding as they mostly keep there hands inside. That is a taught veteran move. Most well coached O lines you will see the same strategy employed. I guarantee you that the Lions are doing the same thing on most plays and if I play the line in slow motion I will see a lot of the same holds.

I'm not in here to trash your forum even if I was pretty harsh on game day but if your going to complain that the league is rigged or the Packers cheat I wholeheartedly disagree. Your just seeing what you want to see when you want to see it and ignoring all the evidence that points to your team getting the same benefits/negatives.

I just reviewed the entire play by play and didn't see a block in the back penalty called against the Packers. Please clarify the play and I'll happily take a look.

That being said, I'm guessing your fanbase was up in arms about the number of blatantly missed holds committed by the Packers, as well as the missed defensive pass interference against Hyde, right? Probably not. One poor call against the Packers (if there even was one) doesn't negate how the officiating was clearly favoring the Packers.

The Lions' offensive line isn't a "veteran line who knows how to get away with holding"... I wish they were. It's a huge advantage. (Not being sarcastic, it really is.) We just don't have that yet, and neutralizing our DLine by holding constantly hurt the defense.

First the phantom facemask last year, then the blatant defensive pass interference not called against Hyde this year. Both key officiating mistakes that had a significant impact on the outcome of each game.
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Spartacus1337


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Spartacus1337 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
incognito_man wrote:
dang, lions got called for "every little thing" and only had 5 enforced penalties. That sounds like they played mistake-free football. That usually results in a blow-out win. What happened?

What? Mistakes only appear on the number of enforced penalties on a stat sheet?


I'm not in here to start anything but the issue I have with this is that your using a whole heap of confirmation bias. I was in your forum a couple of different times and it was blatantly obvious that a number of posters were looking for penalties (Calls or no calls) for the packers.

Yet, on one play the packers converted a 1st down only to have it called back on a block in the back penalty that was obviously not a block in the back. I go into your forum after and no one even mentioned that the refs screwed up. Every post around it is trashing the refs but an obvious penalty that wasn't is not even brought up.

I know our line holds. Its a veteran line that knows how to get away with holding as they mostly keep there hands inside. That is a taught veteran move. Most well coached O lines you will see the same strategy employed. I guarantee you that the Lions are doing the same thing on most plays and if I play the line in slow motion I will see a lot of the same holds.

I'm not in here to trash your forum even if I was pretty harsh on game day but if your going to complain that the league is rigged or the Packers cheat I wholeheartedly disagree. Your just seeing what you want to see when you want to see it and ignoring all the evidence that points to your team getting the same benefits/negatives.

I just reviewed the entire play by play and didn't see a block in the back penalty called against the Packers. Please clarify the play and I'll happily take a look.

That being said, I'm guessing your fanbase was up in arms about the number of blatantly missed holds committed by the Packers, as well as the missed defensive pass interference against Hyde, right? Probably not. One poor call against the Packers (if there even was one) doesn't negate how the officiating was clearly favoring the Packers.

The Lions' offensive line isn't a "veteran line who knows how to get away with holding"... I wish they were. It's a huge advantage. (Not being sarcastic, it really is.) We just don't have that yet, and neutralizing our DLine by holding constantly hurt the defense.

First the phantom facemask last year, then the blatant defensive pass interference not called against Hyde this year. Both key officiating mistakes that had a significant impact on the outcome of each game.


I agree that you have been on the raw end of the calls at times. The "Phantom Facemask" looked like a regular facemask at real speed. Rodgers definitely played it up but the refs don't review penalties.

I actually think you have more of a point regarding Hyde. However both players were hand checking down the field and Hyde turned to track the ball. I think it was defensive holding because he did seem to reroute the receiver after 10 yards but he turned around with the ball in the air and they both were hand checking. Whoever the wide receiver was should have sold the PI which he really didn't. I think its more coaching than screw job by the refs. The wide receive did not even bother try to fight past Hyde. He almost looked like he was trying to block Hyde down the field.

I can understand the sensitivity to the calls but it seems to be way over the top compared to what the refs actually saw / didn't see. I wouldn't say either of those calls are "Blatant".
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol tried to tell ya...

I know I can't flippn stand Rodgers. Them little runs he gets away probably aided by holds are so flippn annoying. I couldn't tell you how many he had but not one hold on any of them..the same joke every year.that hurry up snap to get a 12 man call was classic dushbag Rodgers..ya they sure look set on the snap..refs screen passes qb runs with a holding ol class act mvp all the way.

Refs aided their secondary badly.

They get away with holds on both sides of the ball...must be nice
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
BlitzKarma wrote:
And, for the record. You can have a calm sideline demeanor without putting your team into a coma. Caldwell induces comas. Which would not be a bad thing, IF IT WAS THE OTHER TEAM HE PUT INTO A COMA!!!


Laughing Sorry but being a mature reasoned presence is hardly coma inducing.


Most of the time, your right. But, did you notice to absurd number of games where they Lions never showed up in the first half this year? No wonder we had 8 fourth quarter comebacks. We never woke up from our coma until the 2nd half. And when we came out awake in the 1st half, too often, we fell into a coma in the 2nd half.

And just 1 more reason Caldwell should be dismissed: that drop, bounce, catch by OBJ in the Giants game that was so obviously not a catch, but, the refs called it a catch. AND CALDWELL WAS TOO BUSY INDUCING THE COMA THAT HE FAILED TO CHALLENGE IT.
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Spartacus1337


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Spartacus1337 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
incognito_man wrote:
dang, lions got called for "every little thing" and only had 5 enforced penalties. That sounds like they played mistake-free football. That usually results in a blow-out win. What happened?

What? Mistakes only appear on the number of enforced penalties on a stat sheet?


I'm not in here to start anything but the issue I have with this is that your using a whole heap of confirmation bias. I was in your forum a couple of different times and it was blatantly obvious that a number of posters were looking for penalties (Calls or no calls) for the packers.

Yet, on one play the packers converted a 1st down only to have it called back on a block in the back penalty that was obviously not a block in the back. I go into your forum after and no one even mentioned that the refs screwed up. Every post around it is trashing the refs but an obvious penalty that wasn't is not even brought up.

I know our line holds. Its a veteran line that knows how to get away with holding as they mostly keep there hands inside. That is a taught veteran move. Most well coached O lines you will see the same strategy employed. I guarantee you that the Lions are doing the same thing on most plays and if I play the line in slow motion I will see a lot of the same holds.

I'm not in here to trash your forum even if I was pretty harsh on game day but if your going to complain that the league is rigged or the Packers cheat I wholeheartedly disagree. Your just seeing what you want to see when you want to see it and ignoring all the evidence that points to your team getting the same benefits/negatives.

I just reviewed the entire play by play and didn't see a block in the back penalty called against the Packers. Please clarify the play and I'll happily take a look.

That being said, I'm guessing your fanbase was up in arms about the number of blatantly missed holds committed by the Packers, as well as the missed defensive pass interference against Hyde, right? Probably not. One poor call against the Packers (if there even was one) doesn't negate how the officiating was clearly favoring the Packers.

The Lions' offensive line isn't a "veteran line who knows how to get away with holding"... I wish they were. It's a huge advantage. (Not being sarcastic, it really is.) We just don't have that yet, and neutralizing our DLine by holding constantly hurt the defense.

First the phantom facemask last year, then the blatant defensive pass interference not called against Hyde this year. Both key officiating mistakes that had a significant impact on the outcome of each game.


FYI the play was in the fourth quarter by TJ Lang. I believe it negated a 3rd and manageable. The difference though is that Rodgers threw to Geronimo Allison the very next play for 31 and the first down.
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