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Epyon


Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 395
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wiscbearsfan wrote:
G08 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
I think it is far more likely that the Bears go defense at 3 and then cycle back to QB at 36 or with a trade up.

I think when push comes to shove the defensive talent is that much more superior to the QBs.


Think about that for a second though... this is a DEEP defensive draft at safety and corner, two of our needs. Is Pace ballsy enough to take a Jamal Adams at #3 and then risk losing out on Trubisky/Watson/Mahomes? Maybe even a Kizer if someone wants him badly enough.

That just seems stupid to me.


Stupid to me is reaching* for a QB at 3 and have them turn out league average or worse. Just looking at the last decade or so (going back into the 90's or early 2000's the league was quite different) the Bears have had glimmers of promise with a variety of QB's for very short periods of time. Cutler, Griese, Grossnan, Orton, McCown, etc. Every one of them strung together some play that tantalized you enough to think that they might be something. When they overachieved they were league average or better but rarely playing at an elite level for more than a game or two at a time.

You can go out into free agency or the trade market and bring in a league average QB who isn't going to cost you a ton of cap space and/or draft picks to come in here.

If you use the #3 on a guy who ends up league average then you have gained nothing. Meanwhile the Bears roster as a whole is devoid of sufficient high end talent as well as depth.

If you are going QB at #3 you have to be convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the guy you are picking is a bonafide upper tier QB prospect otherwise you've just cost yourself a chance to add elite talent to your roster and things continue to stagnate.

I desperately want them to find an upper tier QB but the rest of this team needs to improve as well.

*I do believe that at least one of the top 4 QB prospects in this draft will develop into a really good player - but you and I don't know who that is. Somebody could be sold on a specific guy and that one guy could be the one but this is a crapshoot.



I think what it comes down to, is Pace can't be wrong on QBs again. We had something like 7 picks before Dak Prescott went off the board last year and didn't select him. Look no further than Houston or 2006 Bears to see how useful it is to have a team stacked with defensive stars, and a muppet under center.

If we want to go with a non QB at 3, fine... but that player better be a superstar AND not a single one of the first round QBs can become top 10 players.... I don't care if Hooker (for example) is the best safety in the history of the game.... if any of Watson, Mahomes, Trubisky, or even Kizer (who I'm not a fan of) end up becoming a top 10 QB in the league and we weren't the team to select them, Pace should be fired for completely screwing up the pick. The QB position is simply that much more important than the rest of the field.

Personally, I don't see any real value outside for QBs outside of Trubisky, Watson, and Mahomes... and I think all 3 of those guys are absolutely gone by pick 25 (Houston), and an estimated 70% chance of all being gone at pick #13 Arizona. To me that means either spending #3 on a QB, trading down a bit (risky, since it's looking like Washington is going trade Cousins to get #2 and take Trubisky), or spending a TON of picks to move back up and try to take a guy that we could have just picked at #3... and I'm sorry, Hooker/Thomas/Adams simply aren't important enough to me to effectively sacrifice a chance at our desired QB (by having to pick him later and thus risk he's not there), on top of the picks it would require to effectively trade up and get them.
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wiscbearsfan


Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 6555
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epyon wrote:

If we want to go with a non QB at 3, fine... but that player better be a superstar AND not a single one of the first round QBs can become top 10 players.... I don't care if Hooker (for example) is the best safety in the history of the game.... if any of Watson, Mahomes, Trubisky, or even Kizer (who I'm not a fan of) end up becoming a top 10 QB in the league and we weren't the team to select them, Pace should be fired for completely screwing up the pick.


I'm having trouble processing this. Let's say theoretically that Pace does pick a QB from your list at #3 but that guy misses and one or more of the others hits? What then? Fire everyone? Or is that OK because they tried? Good job, good effort Ryan Pace, I award you a participation trophy.

I would love more than anything than for Pace to grab a franchise QB at#3. A bonafide stud QB for the next decade to build the team around.

The problem is that every one of the guys you list has warts and legitimate question marks. You act like they are all going to pan out and be excellent NFL QB's.

League average QB's are a dime a dozen. You can't afford to spend the 3 on league average. If Pace goes QB there he dang well better not miss.
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Sugashane


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

topwop1 wrote:
I'm very intrigued at the possibility of the Bears trading down a few spots in the 1st and picking up an extra 2nd in the process and then drafting a guy like Hooker/Adams and trading back up into the mid-late 1st to grab one of the QB's.

This to me makes the most sense because I have a strong feeling that Trubisky is going #2 to whichever team ends up picking there and that is probably the only QB the Bears would take at #3.

I see Watson's sweet spot anywhere between 15 to 25 in the 1st.


I still wish Pace would have franchised Jeffery and tried to use him in a package deal. Like our second and him for the Titans' second first round pick. Or even him and our first for both of their firsts. While likely too rock, negotiations can allow us to back down done if need new our pursue other options.

Im just going to be pissed off when Jeffery walks without us getting compensation. At least get something for him.
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wiscbearsfan wrote:
Epyon wrote:

If we want to go with a non QB at 3, fine... but that player better be a superstar AND not a single one of the first round QBs can become top 10 players.... I don't care if Hooker (for example) is the best safety in the history of the game.... if any of Watson, Mahomes, Trubisky, or even Kizer (who I'm not a fan of) end up becoming a top 10 QB in the league and we weren't the team to select them, Pace should be fired for completely screwing up the pick.


I'm having trouble processing this. Let's say theoretically that Pace does pick a QB from your list at #3 but that guy misses and one or more of the others hits? What then? Fire everyone? Or is that OK because they tried? Good job, good effort Ryan Pace, I award you a participation trophy.

I would love more than anything than for Pace to grab a franchise QB at#3. A bonafide stud QB for the next decade to build the team around.

The problem is that every one of the guys you list has warts and legitimate question marks. You act like they are all going to pan out and be excellent NFL QB's.

League average QB's are a dime a dozen. You can't afford to spend the 3 on league average. If Pace goes QB there he dang well better not miss.


Wouldn't that be true for every position?
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft

jrry32 wrote:
apples

When the defense allowed 20 pts or fewer, the Cutler-led Bears were 36-7
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gah112


Joined: 30 Jan 2015
Posts: 769
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epyon wrote:
I think what it comes down to, is Pace can't be wrong on QBs again. We had something like 7 picks before Dak Prescott went off the board last year and didn't select him. Look no further than Houston or 2006 Bears to see how useful it is to have a team stacked with defensive stars, and a muppet under center.

If we want to go with a non QB at 3, fine... but that player better be a superstar AND not a single one of the first round QBs can become top 10 players.... I don't care if Hooker (for example) is the best safety in the history of the game.... if any of Watson, Mahomes, Trubisky, or even Kizer (who I'm not a fan of) end up becoming a top 10 QB in the league and we weren't the team to select them, Pace should be fired for completely screwing up the pick. The QB position is simply that much more important than the rest of the field.

Personally, I don't see any real value outside for QBs outside of Trubisky, Watson, and Mahomes... and I think all 3 of those guys are absolutely gone by pick 25 (Houston), and an estimated 70% chance of all being gone at pick #13 Arizona. To me that means either spending #3 on a QB, trading down a bit (risky, since it's looking like Washington is going trade Cousins to get #2 and take Trubisky), or spending a TON of picks to move back up and try to take a guy that we could have just picked at #3... and I'm sorry, Hooker/Thomas/Adams simply aren't important enough to me to effectively sacrifice a chance at our desired QB (by having to pick him later and thus risk he's not there), on top of the picks it would require to effectively trade up and get them.


Yeah, look at Houston - they only won their division and advanced to the divisional round of the playoffs.

The QB position is so important that teams like the Saints, Lions, and Chargers have enjoyed long runs of sustained success after finding their own franchise QBs.
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Epyon


Joined: 02 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wiscbearsfan wrote:
Epyon wrote:

If we want to go with a non QB at 3, fine... but that player better be a superstar AND not a single one of the first round QBs can become top 10 players.... I don't care if Hooker (for example) is the best safety in the history of the game.... if any of Watson, Mahomes, Trubisky, or even Kizer (who I'm not a fan of) end up becoming a top 10 QB in the league and we weren't the team to select them, Pace should be fired for completely screwing up the pick.


I'm having trouble processing this. Let's say theoretically that Pace does pick a QB from your list at #3 but that guy misses and one or more of the others hits? What then? Fire everyone? Or is that OK because they tried? Good job, good effort Ryan Pace, I award you a participation trophy.

I would love more than anything than for Pace to grab a franchise QB at#3. A bonafide stud QB for the next decade to build the team around.

The problem is that every one of the guys you list has warts and legitimate question marks. You act like they are all going to pan out and be excellent NFL QB's.

League average QB's are a dime a dozen. You can't afford to spend the 3 on league average. If Pace goes QB there he dang well better not miss.



Epyon wrote:

I think what it comes down to, is Pace can't be wrong on QBs again.


If we draft any of the QBs and they bust, while another that we didn't draft hits.... I'd also absolutely fire Pace.

I'd qualify that by saying I don't have him on anywhere near as firm a footing as I'd wager most of you do..... Whiffing on Kevin White instead of the obvious Vic Beasley draft is already inexcusable. Doing the same with the #3 pick, and grabbing the wrong QB prospect, or not grabbing a QB prospect at all and having one become a stud would be infinitely worse. We simply cannot afford to let another potential franchise QB slip through our fingers...
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Epyon


Joined: 02 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gah112 wrote:


Yeah, look at Houston - they only won their division and advanced to the divisional round of the playoffs.

The QB position is so important that teams like the Saints, Lions, and Chargers have enjoyed long runs of sustained success after finding their own franchise QBs.


There are no points for second place. I don't want a team that just makes the playoffs, I want a team that wins a ring.

Houston lost in the divisional round because they have horrid QB play despite an elite defense..... Just like we did in 2006....Houston has the best non QB player in the league, and still has absolutely no chance of winning a Superbowl.

Go back and look at all the Super Bowl winning teams from the past 15 years.... and tell me how many QBs from that list are there that you wouldn't consider elite level QBs?

I'll save you the time...... Eli, Flacco, and Wilson are the only ones you could even possibly make the argument weren't elite level guys. And even then, all three of them pulled off elite levels of play for chunks of their respective winning seasons.
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IronMike84


Joined: 17 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epyon wrote:
Whiffing on Kevin White instead of the obvious Vic Beasley draft is already inexcusable.

Complete hindsight. You're fabricating a discernible gap in opinion of those two guys that did not exist in the weeks leading up to the draft.
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wiscbearsfan


Joined: 06 May 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IronMike84 wrote:
Epyon wrote:
Whiffing on Kevin White instead of the obvious Vic Beasley draft is already inexcusable.

Complete hindsight. You're fabricating a discernible gap in opinion of those two guys that did not exist in the weeks leading up to the draft.


Concurred.

Kevin White wasn't a bad pick, mostly bad luck since.

And I do not under any circumstances hold Pace in high regard. He has tons to prove.
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GOGRIESE


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's be honest too...Beasley wasnt looking so well until recently. That's when everyone decided to say "I told you so".
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IronMike84


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOGRIESE wrote:
Let's be honest too...Beasley wasnt looking so well until recently. That's when everyone decided to say "I told you so".

Speaking of, I watched this video the other day and really hoped that a lot of this applies to Leonard Floyd in year 2: https://youtu.be/yRlQudAx1Nw
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...internet mock drafts, which have ridiculously become the measuring stick for where players are "supposed" to go.
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GOGRIESE


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IronMike84 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Let's be honest too...Beasley wasnt looking so well until recently. That's when everyone decided to say "I told you so".

Speaking of, I watched this video the other day and really hoped that a lot of this applies to Leonard Floyd in year 2: https://youtu.be/yRlQudAx1Nw


I think it will. I just hope Fangio doesnt have him dropping into coverage as much.
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Epyon


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IronMike84 wrote:
Epyon wrote:
Whiffing on Kevin White instead of the obvious Vic Beasley draft is already inexcusable.

Complete hindsight. You're fabricating a discernible gap in opinion of those two guys that did not exist in the weeks leading up to the draft.

I had Beasley and Cooper near one another on the draft board, not White, fwiw.

And Beasley tested off the charts at a position where pure athleticism probably matters the most, and is arguably the most important position to a 3-4 defense. He was considered to be about as no brainer of a pick as Aaron Donald would have been for us had the Rams not taken him.

But, even if it is pure hindsight, it still doesn't remotely change the fact that Beasley is now a stud, and Kevin White is currently one of the largest busts in franchise history, until he can get on the field and prove otherwise. Pace may not be able to predict the future, but it is what he's being paid to do.



GOGRIESE wrote:
Let's be honest too...Beasley wasnt looking so well until recently. That's when everyone decided to say "I told you so".


He also wasn't expected to be a year 1 guy.... Frankly Floyd wasn't either, and him being able to produce, let alone at the level he did this year is pretty outstanding.


GOGRIESE wrote:
IronMike84 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Let's be honest too...Beasley wasnt looking so well until recently. That's when everyone decided to say "I told you so".

Speaking of, I watched this video the other day and really hoped that a lot of this applies to Leonard Floyd in year 2: https://youtu.be/yRlQudAx1Nw


I think it will. I just hope Fangio doesnt have him dropping into coverage as much.


The much bigger concern imo is his two concussions from year 1. He's going to have a powerfully short career if he keeps going at that rate.
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G08


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I loved Beasley and hated White during the process... so I'm even more pissed about the results.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft

jrry32 wrote:
apples

When the defense allowed 20 pts or fewer, the Cutler-led Bears were 36-7
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IronMike84


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epyon wrote:
But, even if it is pure hindsight, it still doesn't remotely change the fact that Beasley is now a stud, and Kevin White is currently one of the largest busts in franchise history, until he can get on the field and prove otherwise. Pace may not be able to predict the future, but it is what he's being paid to do.

I couldn't disagree more.

Cade McNown was a bust. Mark Bradley was a bust. Jon Bostic was a bust. Those guys flat-out couldn't play the game at the pro level.

Kevin White had a clean medical and was pretty much a consensus top ten pick. This isn't like Jerry Angelo drafting Chris Williams when there were red flags popping up late in the game.

Say what you will about Pace, but I think most rational people have a hard time holding White's injuries against him.
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