You are currently viewing the old forums. We have upgraded to a new NFL Forum.
This old forum is being left as a read-only archive.
Please update your bookmarks to our new forum at forums.footballsfuture.com.


 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Week 17 GDT Oakland Raiders @ Denver Broncos
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Denver Broncos
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
The Helicopter


Joined: 31 Dec 2012
Posts: 598
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elliot878 wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/10622/trevor-siemian


Sounds like Paxton Lynch will start this one. I think it's good to get another look at him before the season ends. I'm all for tanking this one and getting a higher draft pick.


Siemian had some time this week to throw and had his worst game as a pro I'm all for Lynch. Trevor is a high level backup nothing more.



There's really no way of knowing what either QB on our roster is. You can't evaluate accurately behind such a terrible offensive line.


Kinda makes ya wonder if Brock was improvement or not (over Siemian)...hard to call with so many negative variables. Feels like an episode of The Biggest Loser
_________________
"I don't think he was happy with the cologne I was wearing. I was wearing a lot of it and I guess he wasn't happy with it. I was on him a lot at the end of the game so everybody doesn't like my smell."
-Von Miller
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elliot878


Moderator
Joined: 03 Feb 2007
Posts: 12258
Location: Connecticut
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Helicopter wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/10622/trevor-siemian


Sounds like Paxton Lynch will start this one. I think it's good to get another look at him before the season ends. I'm all for tanking this one and getting a higher draft pick.


Siemian had some time this week to throw and had his worst game as a pro I'm all for Lynch. Trevor is a high level backup nothing more.



There's really no way of knowing what either QB on our roster is. You can't evaluate accurately behind such a terrible offensive line.


Kinda makes ya wonder if Brock was improvement or not (over Siemian)...hard to call with so many negative variables. Feels like an episode of The Biggest Loser


Should have been clear last preseason when Siemian looked way better than Brock. Yea Brock was playing vs the first team and Siemian was playing backups, but the way he carried himself compared to Brock it was obvious he was going to be better. I've never seen a QB look more unsure of themself on the field than Brock.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elliot878


Moderator
Joined: 03 Feb 2007
Posts: 12258
Location: Connecticut
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read on the espn app today that Billy Turner will get an extended audition on Sunday at guard against the Raiders.

He busted as a 3rd rounder with Miami, but he was a project anyway. Could be interesting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3182
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Turner and McGovern could be starters we'd only have two holes on the offensive line we could draft two tackles and sign a free agent stop gap left tackle.
_________________
Props to Deadpulse for the Sig:

Big Palooka wrote:
"They don't have to worry about him making consistent passes. They will win another 2-3 max with him at QB."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 3609
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebestever6 wrote:
If Turner and McGovern could be starters we'd only have two holes on the offensive line we could draft two tackles and sign a free agent stop gap left tackle.


Given their inability to beat our starters for PT that's a leap of faith I wouldn't feel good about. At least in McGovern's case his inability to beat out Garcia could be due to the rookie learning curve.

Re: Brock I think it's clear that Siemian is better even now with his struggles, but it's a moot point if we are talking present season. One costs min wage, one costs 16m.
_________________
steelpanther wrote:
This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elliot878


Moderator
Joined: 03 Feb 2007
Posts: 12258
Location: Connecticut
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebestever6 wrote:
If Turner and McGovern could be starters we'd only have two holes on the offensive line we could draft two tackles and sign a free agent stop gap left tackle.


It may be way too soon to tell on Turner and McGovern. McGovern really scares me as I thought he was a solid mid round prospect, yet every team let him slid way further than he was projected to go. These NFL scouts noticed something that the draft websites failed to notice. There has to be a big flaw for him to slip so much farther down the board than his projection let on. He's powerful, extremely strong, but looking back on his scouting reports it sounds like he's incredibly raw in pass protection, where his world class strength doesn't show up due to his footwork and technique.

I think the coaching staff wants to iron out his technique flaws in a "redshirt" year. I still have hopes for him to be a starting guard. He'd do really well in this system, he's one of the few scheme fits we've drafted that actually has the proper strength for the league. The same approach was taken with Paradis and that's the only OL project that has actually been successful for this coaching staff, so I'm holding out hope.

Here's a scouting breakdown of McGovern from last year.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/connor-mcgovern?id=2555133


I don't know much about Turner. Not sure if the Dolphins were trying to make him work as a tackle or a guard. Sounds like he's got a mean streak and good size/athleticism combo for the system we run though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 3609
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if both McGovern & Turner play well realistically they should enter next season as our 7th/8th linemen (Stephenson our top sub T and Garcia fighting with those 2 for top G sub - best case McGovern wins a starting job but nothing should be handed to him depth chart wise). Not only because if the flags in their inability to crack this lineup but also because depth matters.

If we think either can help great. But let's not repeat the mistake that these guys can then be coached up to start next season. We have seen where that thinking leads us. Unlike last year we have the resources to upgrade our OL not just with splash FA (Whitworth is a priority) but with real short & long term depth. Winning trenches (on both sides of the ball so DL matters too) is how you build a perennial SB contender and get us back to playing February football. Get it done Elway!
_________________
steelpanther wrote:
This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jsthomp2007


Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 8722
Location: USA
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Helicopter wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/10622/trevor-siemian


Sounds like Paxton Lynch will start this one. I think it's good to get another look at him before the season ends. I'm all for tanking this one and getting a higher draft pick.


Siemian had some time this week to throw and had his worst game as a pro I'm all for Lynch. Trevor is a high level backup nothing more.



There's really no way of knowing what either QB on our roster is. You can't evaluate accurately behind such a terrible offensive line.


Kinda makes ya wonder if Brock was improvement or not (over Siemian)...hard to call with so many negative variables. Feels like an episode of The Biggest Loser



Hmmm....Brock got benched and replaced by a former Rutgers QB...not sure if the Brock v. Siemien argument still applies, considering that Siemien is about 900% cheaper and just as productive.
_________________
Ninja stealth muggers in the Bellagio has left me in a state of congitive disonance...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3182
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broncofan wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
If Turner and McGovern could be starters we'd only have two holes on the offensive line we could draft two tackles and sign a free agent stop gap left tackle.


Given their inability to beat our starters for PT that's a leap of faith I wouldn't feel good about. At least in McGovern's case his inability to beat out Garcia could be due to the rookie learning curve.

Re: Brock I think it's clear that Siemian is better even now with his struggles, but it's a moot point if we are talking present season. One costs min wage, one costs 16m.


Sambrialo beat out Stephenson for. Playing time doesn't mean he's a good player. These coaches play it entirely way too safe . Turner being signed October 17th had no chance to see playing time either did McGovern being raw.
_________________
Props to Deadpulse for the Sig:

Big Palooka wrote:
"They don't have to worry about him making consistent passes. They will win another 2-3 max with him at QB."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 3609
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebestever6 wrote:
Broncofan wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
If Turner and McGovern could be starters we'd only have two holes on the offensive line we could draft two tackles and sign a free agent stop gap left tackle.


Given their inability to beat our starters for PT that's a leap of faith I wouldn't feel good about. At least in McGovern's case his inability to beat out Garcia could be due to the rookie learning curve.

Re: Brock I think it's clear that Siemian is better even now with his struggles, but it's a moot point if we are talking present season. One costs min wage, one costs 16m.


Sambrialo beat out Stephenson for. Playing time doesn't mean he's a good player. These coaches play it entirely way too safe . Turner being signed October 17th had no chance to see playing time either did McGovern being raw.


So...you're going to let one game decide future personnel decisions? That's awful logic - it's reactionary, and based on small sample size. We all know that our OL is our biggest weakness for next year - but somehow, we've missed two starters from our current group all year long? Because the coaches played it safe? And that one game on Week 17 is going to show this? Are you even listening to yourself right now?

McGovern is a rookie, so there's plenty of hope he might be ok as he learns - but it's by no means a guarantee - and Elway shouldn't be putting all his eggs in that basket. Some guys take 1 year, others take 2 - by McGovern's growth so far, it's no lock he's 1-year, he could be 2, or worse, he could be a complete washout. I certainly hope he's ready to compete for a position - but that's all he should be doing, at best. And again, even if McGovern's ready to help, it's should be seen as a great bonus - but even then, depth matters. Teams don't go in thinking they have 5 guys on the OL - they should be 7,8 deep, because injuries are a fact of life. If we think McGovern & Turner can help in 2017, awesome - but it shouldn't be as starters going in. That's how you end up with a 2016 OL disaster. At least in 2016, Elway didn't have much of a choice, given the org wanted its QBOTF from the draft, and he had no cap $ to go after OL upgrades if they wanted to keep their young core guys (which is a no-brainer right call). This offseason, we don't need to invest into extending our core, but we can address our OL & run D deficiencies, both in FA & the draft - and no matter how well McGovern & Turner play in one game, those weaknesses aren't suddenly any different.

We have the resources to invest in OL & DL, and we should by all means do that for 2017. McGovern & Turner are potential depth guys if they play well this week and continue to develop in the offseason and OTA's, at least for McGoverb his roster spot is quite safe. That alone would be a huge bonus - but it's also going to be based off more than this game - offseason, OTA's, etc. Preseason for McGovern as well. Projecting them to be starters from this week's performance is a leap of faith equally as misguided as saying Lynch was drafted to be our 2016 starter right after we drafted him, or even in the preseason - you don't go in with that as plan A. McGovern & Turner's growth (or lack thereof) don't suggest this, they put it in ink.

These late-season auditions are great because they help show where a rookie or raw project needs to work in the offseason, and if they've progressed - but 1-game performances are not how orgs make key decisions, not when they are literally 3-4 guys away from a championship. That's how bad orgs make decisions - fortunately, we're not one of them, and I'm thankful for that. 1 game is great for us to see where we need those guys to improve - and they'll have an entire offseason, OTA's, and if we keep guys like Turner, the preseason to work on. But let's not go overboard on what we're getting from this one game. I'm sure if Lynch struggles, we aren't going to suddenly cut bait, right? Same as if he plays well, we aren't suddenly going to explore the trade market for Siemian (not that he helped himself the last 2 weeks lol). Well, that applies as much, if not more, to our OL analysis for 2017.

The best orgs are the ones that aren't reactionary - the biggest lesson we learned from last offseason was NOT to read too much into a 6-game sample into making key future roster decisions - HOU saved us from that colossal mistake with Osweiler. That was also a result of us not having many other choices because of cap $ / who else was there in the QB market. But now, you're suggesting we go off 1 game to make a similarly important decision on next year's starters on the area we are the weakest in (OL), when we have cap & draft resources, and a much wider pool of FA & draft possibilities to fill those areas, unlike 2016? Let's take a deep breath, and let logic & sanity rule.
_________________
steelpanther wrote:
This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
iLikeDefense


Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 3724
Location: San Diego--Mile High West
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope we see a lot of Simmons and Parks. Really liked a few things Simmons did last week. He seems like a good cover guy.
_________________

^ Joe_is_the_best with the sig.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 3609
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iLikeDefense wrote:
I hope we see a lot of Simmons and Parks. Really liked a few things Simmons did last week. He seems like a good cover guy.


Definitely. Which is interesting, since PFF had Parks as the #2 rated college cover S last year.

Either way, if Simmons can improve his angles and reads in run support, and his play from prior games in limited action in coverage, gotta like his chances to be our SS of the future. Improving angles and reads on run support is a much easier task so long as it's not a physical limitation (speed/strength) for a young S to learn, and I like his ability to contest catches.
_________________
steelpanther wrote:
This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3182
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broncofan wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
Broncofan wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
If Turner and McGovern could be starters we'd only have two holes on the offensive line we could draft two tackles and sign a free agent stop gap left tackle.


Given their inability to beat our starters for PT that's a leap of faith I wouldn't feel good about. At least in McGovern's case his inability to beat out Garcia could be due to the rookie learning curve.

Re: Brock I think it's clear that Siemian is better even now with his struggles, but it's a moot point if we are talking present season. One costs min wage, one costs 16m.


Sambrialo beat out Stephenson for. Playing time doesn't mean he's a good player. These coaches play it entirely way too safe . Turner being signed October 17th had no chance to see playing time either did McGovern being raw.


So...you're going to let one game decide future personnel decisions? That's awful logic - it's reactionary, and based on small sample size. We all know that our OL is our biggest weakness for next year - but somehow, we've missed two starters from our current group all year long? Because the coaches played it safe? And that one game on Week 17 is going to show this? Are you even listening to yourself right now?

McGovern is a rookie, so there's plenty of hope he might be ok as he learns - but it's by no means a guarantee - and Elway shouldn't be putting all his eggs in that basket. Some guys take 1 year, others take 2 - by McGovern's growth so far, it's no lock he's 1-year, he could be 2, or worse, he could be a complete washout. I certainly hope he's ready to compete for a position - but that's all he should be doing, at best. And again, even if McGovern's ready to help, it's should be seen as a great bonus - but even then, depth matters. Teams don't go in thinking they have 5 guys on the OL - they should be 7,8 deep, because injuries are a fact of life. If we think McGovern & Turner can help in 2017, awesome - but it shouldn't be as starters going in. That's how you end up with a 2016 OL disaster. At least in 2016, Elway didn't have much of a choice, given the org wanted its QBOTF from the draft, and he had no cap $ to go after OL upgrades if they wanted to keep their young core guys (which is a no-brainer right call). This offseason, we don't need to invest into extending our core, but we can address our OL & run D deficiencies, both in FA & the draft - and no matter how well McGovern & Turner play in one game, those weaknesses aren't suddenly any different.

We have the resources to invest in OL & DL, and we should by all means do that for 2017. McGovern & Turner are potential depth guys if they play well this week and continue to develop in the offseason and OTA's, at least for McGoverb his roster spot is quite safe. That alone would be a huge bonus - but it's also going to be based off more than this game - offseason, OTA's, etc. Preseason for McGovern as well. Projecting them to be starters from this week's performance is a leap of faith equally as misguided as saying Lynch was drafted to be our 2016 starter right after we drafted him, or even in the preseason - you don't go in with that as plan A. McGovern & Turner's growth (or lack thereof) don't suggest this, they put it in ink.

These late-season auditions are great because they help show where a rookie or raw project needs to work in the offseason, and if they've progressed - but 1-game performances are not how orgs make key decisions, not when they are literally 3-4 guys away from a championship. That's how bad orgs make decisions - fortunately, we're not one of them, and I'm thankful for that. 1 game is great for us to see where we need those guys to improve - and they'll have an entire offseason, OTA's, and if we keep guys like Turner, the preseason to work on. But let's not go overboard on what we're getting from this one game. I'm sure if Lynch struggles, we aren't going to suddenly cut bait, right? Same as if he plays well, we aren't suddenly going to explore the trade market for Siemian (not that he helped himself the last 2 weeks lol). Well, that applies as much, if not more, to our OL analysis for 2017.

The best orgs are the ones that aren't reactionary - the biggest lesson we learned from last offseason was NOT to read too much into a 6-game sample into making key future roster decisions - HOU saved us from that colossal mistake with Osweiler. That was also a result of us not having many other choices because of cap $ / who else was there in the QB market. But now, you're suggesting we go off 1 game to make a similarly important decision on next year's starters on the area we are the weakest in (OL), when we have cap & draft resources, and a much wider pool of FA & draft possibilities to fill those areas, unlike 2016? Let's take a deep breath, and let logic & sanity rule.


I'm not saying one game dictates next seasons starting lineup not in the least. But I'm also saying just because they didn't get playing time in prior games doesn't mean they're duds. My ideal off season would have us solidifying the roster while still being able to go bpa first round if there is a linebacker on the board like Foster who can help us right away I'd rather go there than reach for a need . That's my thought process as a fan.
_________________
Props to Deadpulse for the Sig:

Big Palooka wrote:
"They don't have to worry about him making consistent passes. They will win another 2-3 max with him at QB."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AnAngryAmerican


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 19487
Location: Loveland, CO
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broncofan wrote:
HOU saved us from that colossal mistake with Osweiler.

I don't disagree. I'm glad we didn't spend the money on Brock because we wouldn't have been able to get the three defensive players we re-signed this year - Von, Marshall and Stewart.

However, I've been cautioning Broncos fans in person and online that Brock probably wouldn't have been the disaster here that he was in Houston because he a) knows our offense better, b) our offense is a better fit for him than O'Brien's McOffense and c) Oz would have had chemistry and rapport with his teammates here he didn't in Houston.

I'm not saying he would have been a Pro Bowler or even a franchise QB here, and again he likely wouldn't have been worth the money we would have had to pay him, but I don't think he would have been as big a dumpster fire here as he was for the Patriots-South.
_________________
big_palooka:

bhslinebacker wrote:
AAA is right, as he usually is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
jolly red giant


Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 412
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would agree AAA - I think Osweiler would have been better than Siemian for the Broncos - just never thought he was worth the money or what it would have cost in terms of other players.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Denver Broncos All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 2 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group