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Mind Character


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KamTrus20 wrote:
NateDawg wrote:
Bonanza23 wrote:
Ok so I was finally able to watch the NC. And I don't get the Watson hype. Why are people elevating him up the proverbial draft boards? I saw one wow throw. Several nice throws. A couple of Williams bail outs. And quite a few inaccurate throws.


I saw what you saw. A guy who is nowhere near NFL ready as a passer. He has potential. He had as much potential to fall on his face as he does succeed though. It'd be such an unwise high investment. He worth the day 2 risk to me, but that's as far as I'll go.


He is not near as bad as all the haters in here are making it seem. A lot of people calling him a 2nd-4th round project QB. He is not near as good as the media hype is making it seem right now either. He has some ability and he did some nice things against Alabama I had never seen from him before. I saw on a few occasions him moving a defender with his eyes and then throw back to the window he created.

I watched that game about 15 times in the last few days each time focusing on someone new.

#54 Dalvin Tomlinson was having a monster game. If it were not for them winning Clemson interior line would have went to bed hating life on Monday night. Really has me intrigued. Hope to see him at the Senior Bowl. I am going to go back and watch more Alabama and watch him instead of the big names.

#2 Tony Brown is an impressive player. He has an attitude about him. He has what they used to call swag. He has been impressive against Washington and Clemson. I really want to watch more of him.

#22 Ryan Anderson has such a violent and powerful upper body even when he doesn't get home to the QB the OT sure as hell knows he was just in a dog fit. The only thing I would be concerned about with him is if he has the flexibility in his hips to flatten the corner. The more I watch him the more I feel he is going to be a better pro than Reuben Foster.

#10 Reuben Foster lightning fast and highly aggressive. Looks thinner and thinner every game I watch him. He may very well struggle to keep weight on during the season at the pro level.

#7 Mike Williams is a flat out stud. All the hype surrounding DeShaun Watson but the real star was Williams. Some have been questioning his speed to get deep or overall athletic ability to do much after the catch. I say hogwash this kid is going to be a highly productive #1 in the NFL.

#56 Tim Williams was less than impressive yet again. He is small for a pass rusher and offers almost no power. I don't get the hype myself. I like Ryan Anderson far more on his own team. I'd take Garrett, Takk, Barnett, Thomas, Taco, Harris, Kpass, Smoot and Anderson before Williams if I needed a pass rusher and there may be others because that was just off the top of my head.


Tony Brown's going to go top 15 next year as the combine buster late riser. He's got all the traits and physicality one could ever want in a CB. A nice year of production next year will get him in the top 20.
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ohiogenius


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bonanza23 wrote:
ohiogenius wrote:
Bonanza23 wrote:
Why do we need to cut anybody? We're already bare bones as it is. Laughing

I mean you can save 20 million by getting rid of RG3, Tramon Williams, Josh McCown and Alvin Bailey

You could get RG Zeitler and RT Wagner for that salary and still have like 110 million to play with


Yeah I get it but we need to keep some veteran leadership even if they suck.

Williams can be replaced by Haden leadership wise.
RG3 isnt a leader.

The only case for leadership there is McCown but I would cut him and if he doesnt latch on anywhere just bring him in as an assistant to groom
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Would JPP fit in the 3-4??

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candyman93


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we draft Watson (I'm scared because I've seen this show before) we should draft Artavis Scott and Jordan Leggett. Scott would be a great slot WR. Leggett would be somebody Watson is comfortable with too.

Takk McKinley at 12 is intriguing to me if we pass on Myles.
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LETSGOBROWNIES


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BleedTheClock wrote:
candyman93 wrote:
candyman93 wrote:
Also, for my cap space nerds. Who should we cut and how much would we save theoretically?


Here are guys we could consider cutting:


QB Robert Griffin III
WR Andrew Hawkins
TE Gary Barnidge
RG John Greco
DT Desmond Bryant
MLB DeMario Davis
CB Tramon Williams

All of these players are making more than they're worth. Now obviously we shouldn't cut all of them...and probably shouldn't cut any of them until we find good replacements. But those are the guys that will be looked at as possible cap casualties.


I expect us to cut Andrew Hawkins, John Greco, Desmond Bryant, and Tramon Williams. Retaining Barnidge, Davis, and RGIII.


The only reason I put Barnidge on the list as a possible cut is because I think we look to add another young TE this year early. OJ Howard or David Njoku would make Barnidge expendable.


As far as how much this would save us...not sure.


There is no reason to cut anyone right now, we're the worst team in the league and most of the guys you mentioned are projected starters, at least right now.

Hawkins is cheap, our only vet WR and is in the last year of his deal. He was our 3rd best WR last season.

Greco could start at either center or guard and is relatively cheap. This one makes no sense to me, he was probably our best center.

Des is the probable starter at DT and his return is much needed. Why would we cut him again?

Barnidge is a year removed from a Pro Bowl and far and away the best TE on the roster who makes 3 mil a year for 2 more seasons. I'm not him cutting him under any circumstances, certainly not for the sake of Randall Telfer or a rookie.

Davis is our projected starting mlb and a solid player against the run. At worst he's solid depth. Again, why cut a guy when we don't have his replacement ready to go?

These are the types of players good teams may cut if they were up against the cap and had a young player ready to step in. Neither scenario applies here.

RGIII looks to be back, but that may change. 7.5 million isn't a ton for a QB either way.

Tramon is probably (should be) gone unless Williams loves him at FS because he's done at CB.

I just don't see the need to create more holes when we already have plenty to fill, especially when so many of these guys are on relatively cheap deals.
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LETSGOBROWNIES


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
Do we get to v.4 before the Super Bowl?


Maybe. When do they play that game? Around Easter?


Looks like we'll make it lol.
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candyman93


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to finish what I was saying.

If we draft Watson I'd take Leggett in the 2nd round, Scott in the 4th or 5th and a RT possibly with our pick at 12. Take Eddie Jackson in the 3rd.
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kelbot


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KamTrus20 wrote:
NateDawg wrote:
Bonanza23 wrote:
Ok so I was finally able to watch the NC. And I don't get the Watson hype. Why are people elevating him up the proverbial draft boards? I saw one wow throw. Several nice throws. A couple of Williams bail outs. And quite a few inaccurate throws.


I saw what you saw. A guy who is nowhere near NFL ready as a passer. He has potential. He had as much potential to fall on his face as he does succeed though. It'd be such an unwise high investment. He worth the day 2 risk to me, but that's as far as I'll go.


He is not near as bad as all the haters in here are making it seem. A lot of people calling him a 2nd-4th round project QB. He is not near as good as the media hype is making it seem right now either. He has some ability and he did some nice things against Alabama I had never seen from him before. I saw on a few occasions him moving a defender with his eyes and then throw back to the window he created.

I watched that game about 15 times in the last few days each time focusing on someone new.

#54 Dalvin Tomlinson was having a monster game. If it were not for them winning Clemson interior line would have went to bed hating life on Monday night. Really has me intrigued. Hope to see him at the Senior Bowl. I am going to go back and watch more Alabama and watch him instead of the big names.

#2 Tony Brown is an impressive player. He has an attitude about him. He has what they used to call swag. He has been impressive against Washington and Clemson. I really want to watch more of him.

#22 Ryan Anderson has such a violent and powerful upper body even when he doesn't get home to the QB the OT sure as hell knows he was just in a dog fit. The only thing I would be concerned about with him is if he has the flexibility in his hips to flatten the corner. The more I watch him the more I feel he is going to be a better pro than Reuben Foster.

#10 Reuben Foster lightning fast and highly aggressive. Looks thinner and thinner every game I watch him. He may very well struggle to keep weight on during the season at the pro level.

#7 Mike Williams is a flat out stud. All the hype surrounding DeShaun Watson but the real star was Williams. Some have been questioning his speed to get deep or overall athletic ability to do much after the catch. I say hogwash this kid is going to be a highly productive #1 in the NFL.

#56 Tim Williams was less than impressive yet again. He is small for a pass rusher and offers almost no power. I don't get the hype myself. I like Ryan Anderson far more on his own team. I'd take Garrett, Takk, Barnett, Thomas, Taco, Harris, Kpass, Smoot and Anderson before Williams if I needed a pass rusher and there may be others because that was just off the top of my head.


I don't even know why deep speed is discussed with bigger receivers. It's almost become irrelevant with the advent of the back shoulder throw. There are so many successful receivers that don't have deep speed.

The Mike Williams' (USC) and Ramses Bardens of the world have proven this wrong but it seems less and less important each year.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can Ben Boulware make it in the league?
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nugpimpen


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kelbot wrote:
Can Ben Boulware make it in the league?


Don't think he goes in the first few rounds, but maybe.
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Mind Character


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

candyman93 wrote:
Just to finish what I was saying.

If we draft Watson I'd take Leggett in the 2nd round, Scott in the 4th or 5th and a RT possibly with our pick at 12. Take Eddie Jackson in the 3rd.


The draft breakdown cutups of Deshaun Watson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9HMWw3PPZ4

I don't even want to entertain the thought of this drafting Watson scenario. Geesh.

Something not being discussed in the Watson and Trubisky fanfare is the QB prospect depth in 2018 with a lot of them being better prospects than those two. Josh Allen declared he's returning to school.

So, 2018 is shaping up to be a very deep QB year assuming some QBs like Luke Faulk and Lamar Jackson make jumps. The cream is at the top 2 as always however. Sleepers like Brett Rypien and Baker Mayfield will give QB coach's a lot to like especially if they make jumps this off season. QBs will go 1 and 2 assuming the team that takes Trubisky and/or Watson isn't back at 1 and 2 next year.

2018 QB1 Prospects:


1. Sam Darnold,
2. Josh Allen,
3. Josh Rosen
4. Lamar Jackson,
5. Luke Faulk,
6. Baker Mayfield
7. Mason Randolph,
8. Josh Browning
9. Brett Rypien
10. Riley Ferguson

Throw in 2 or 3 QB prospects as late risers or small school types or unheralded names and this class would be insane especially if 2 or 3 of those guys make big jumps as QBs do in their last years of eligibility. Faulk was already on par with Trub and Watson albeit a notch below. If he takes a step he could be the better prospect. Sleeper of the class is Brett Rypien (a lot like Kessler) and Baker Mayfield.


Also why you don't reach on a qb prospect like EJ Manuel or Gabbert type b/c if that's done this year (assuming those prospects are TRub and Watson) you don't take one of those guys next year b/c you're waiting for shiiit not to stink.

Therefore, the winner of the 2017 draft is the team that takes the immediate starter value now (most likely on the defensive side of the ball) and doesn't select a QB this year that prevents them from taking a QB out of that pool of similar if not better graded prospects.

This year is the critical test of the FO. It was not last year. No QB we take this year is a franchise chamber. IMHO, you can get a Trubisky or Watson in next year's draft easily. If they pass on all the top QBs this year....it will show me that we are on the right path. If not, look for a clean house in 2 years and the franchise to have made no progress. On average in a given top 10 only 2 to 4 teams need QBs. Based on that list, the 4th or 5th QB in 2018 will be just as good as Trub or Watson imo. The browns will finish with a record in the top 10 of the draft easily. If we improve to 5 wins, that may be good enough to pick 5th or so in the draft where one of the premium QBs falls to us. The plan this year has to be take the immediate starters and forego the QB1 future player until next year. Unless Kizer falls to us in the 2nd.

[/u]
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kelbot


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BleedTheClock wrote:
kelbot wrote:
BleedTheClock wrote:
Isaiah Ford is going to be very good. Reminds me of Titus Young if he wasn't such a dummy. He's going to be an elite #2 WR for someone.


Elite #2 seems like an oxymoron.


Why? He doesn't have the ht/wt/spd to be a #1 receiver. He's not going to draw double coverage, but will work the underneath game and catch a ton of footballs. Your #1 receiver, IMO, needs to be able to stretch the field and have the size to Moss smaller DB's. This draws constant double teams, opening up the underneath game and the run game. Ford doesn't have those tools, but he would work very well as a complement to your #1 ht/wt/spd guy.


And guys, why on earth, if Tyrod Taylor was so good, would the Bills just get rid of him like that? Benched for EJ Manuel? It's hard to believe they're going to just get rid of their relatively young franchise QB because they want to scapegoat him.


Bills had a great receiving TE (Clay), and a good #2 WR (Woods) to complement Sammy Watkins, whom we all know is extremely explosive. Plus, LeSean McCoy is one of the best receiving backs in the league and rarely stayed in to block. They had plenty of athletic weapons for him to use. Additionally, they had Marquise Goodwin who is a track star. He's not good, but he is an explosive playmaker if you can get him the football.


Elite: a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities.

Second: subordinate or inferior in position, rank, or importance.

Taylor was "benched" because if he got hurt his contract became 100% guaranteed. They had already fired their coach and wanted to give his replacement a chance to decide if he wanted Taylor or not.

Clay is great? His best season was 4 years ago for another team and even then his production didn't rival what Barnidge and Cameron have done here recently.

Is Woods an "elite" #2?

And I love the "he's not good but they should've used him more" logic with Goodwin.

Watkins is their only consistent receiving threat and he missed most of the season. I think they have serviceable or better weapons, but his supporting cast isn't great or close to it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
kelbot wrote:
Can Ben Boulware make it in the league?


Don't think he goes in the first few rounds, but maybe.


Yeah, not sure about his athleticism. Seems like he could be a Tank Carder type ST ace. Actually reminds me of Teo quite a bit.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mind Character wrote:
candyman93 wrote:
Just to finish what I was saying.

If we draft Watson I'd take Leggett in the 2nd round, Scott in the 4th or 5th and a RT possibly with our pick at 12. Take Eddie Jackson in the 3rd.


The draft breakdown cutups of Deshaun Watson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9HMWw3PPZ4

I don't even want to entertain the thought of this drafting Watson scenario. Geesh.

Something not being discussed in the Watson and Trubisky fanfare is the QB prospect depth in 2018 with a lot of them being better prospects than those two. Josh Allen declared he's returning to school.

So, 2018 is shaping up to be a very deep QB year assuming some QBs like Luke Faulk and Lamar Jackson make jumps. The cream is at the top 2 as always however. Sleepers like Brett Rypien and Baker Mayfield will give QB coach's a lot to like especially if they make jumps this off season. QBs will go 1 and 2 assuming the team that takes Trubisky and/or Watson isn't back at 1 and 2 next year.

2018 QB1 Prospects:


1. Sam Darnold,
2. Josh Allen,
3. Josh Rosen
4. Lamar Jackson,
5. Luke Faulk,
6. Baker Mayfield
7. Mason Randolph,
8. Josh Browning
9. Brett Rypien
10. Riley Ferguson

Throw in 2 or 3 QB prospects as late risers or small school types or unheralded names and this class would be insane especially if 2 or 3 of those guys make big jumps as QBs do in their last years of eligibility. Faulk was already on par with Trub and Watson albeit a notch below. If he takes a step he could be the better prospect. Sleeper of the class is Brett Rypien (a lot like Kessler) and Baker Mayfield.


Also why you don't reach on a qb prospect like EJ Manuel or Gabbert type b/c if that's done this year (assuming those prospects are TRub and Watson) you don't take one of those guys next year b/c you're waiting for shiiit not to stink.

Therefore, the winner of the 2017 draft is the team that takes the immediate starter value now (most likely on the defensive side of the ball) and doesn't select a QB this year that prevents them from taking a QB out of that pool of similar if not better graded prospects.

This year is the critical test of the FO. It was not last year. No QB we take this year is a franchise chamber. IMHO, you can get a Trubisky or Watson in next year's draft easily. If they pass on all the top QBs this year....it will show me that we are on the right path. If not, look for a clean house in 2 years and the franchise to have made no progress. On average in a given top 10 only 2 to 4 teams need QBs. Based on that list, the 4th or 5th QB in 2018 will be just as good as Trub or Watson imo. The browns will finish with a record in the top 10 of the draft easily. If we improve to 5 wins, that may be good enough to pick 5th or so in the draft where one of the premium QBs falls to us. The plan this year has to be take the immediate starters and forego the QB1 future player until next year. Unless Kizer falls to us in the 2nd.

[/u]


Yeah, this "but look at next year's class" logic bites us in the arse every time.

Once upon a time Jevan Snead was being mocked in the first round.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
kelbot wrote:
Can Ben Boulware make it in the league?


Don't think he goes in the first few rounds, but maybe.


I'm guessing he goes 6th-7th round as a special teams guy and depth LB. Great attitude and such, but as others have pointed out he doesn't have great athleticism. Scooby Wright would be my comparison as far as a guy who just doesn't seem to have the athleticism to be a starter.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NateDawg wrote:
Bonanza23 wrote:
Ok so I was finally able to watch the NC. And I don't get the Watson hype. Why are people elevating him up the proverbial draft boards? I saw one wow throw. Several nice throws. A couple of Williams bail outs. And quite a few inaccurate throws.


I saw what you saw. A guy who is nowhere near NFL ready as a passer. He has potential. He had as much potential to fall on his face as he does succeed though. It'd be such an unwise high investment. He worth the day 2 risk to me, but that's as far as I'll go.


Agreed. I think Watson has potential, but he's inaccurate right now, and in my experience guys who are inaccurate stay inaccurate. He's a 2nd round pick to me.

As to Bonanza's original question. It's because they won. If he gets sacked on that last play and time expires, we're probably all still talking about him as a late first-2nd round pick.
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