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Frustration of a Saints fan & Payton being full of it!!!
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:55 pm    Post subject: Frustration of a Saints fan & Payton being full of it!!! Reply with quote



I realize the situation the Saints are currently in… I'm also fully aware that Head Coach Sean Payton (baring a miracle) will be returning to the Saints in 2017. However the time has come to call Payton out for the way he routinely treats Saints fans as if there stupid and are incapable of doing something as simple as remembering the things the coach says.

This is a man (Payton) that has consistently backpedaled out of almost everything he's ever said once what he said has either gotten him backed into a corner or was proven to be wrong/false. Look, I understand and I'm not naïve to the fact that most of what these head coaches tell the media are in fact lies but Payton has a certain arrogance and sliminess to him and the way he always insults the intelligence of both the media and Saints fans… even if those fans aren't even aware that he's in fact doing it.

Linebacker Stephone Anthony is just a small example of what I'm talking about… from his selection at 31st overall in the 2015 NFL draft by the Saints to his stellar rookie campaign and down to his surprising position switch and demotion this season. Payton has consistently pointed the finger at players for he and his coaches failures throughout his tenure here and how he and this staff has treated Anthony is a microcosm of the issues that continue to derail this organization.

When the Saints entered the 2015 NFL draft they did so with the full expectation of the entire NFL that they would focus on improving their league worst defense and with 2 first round picks to work with the Saints appeared to be in a prime position to do just that. Instead with their top pick (13th) Payton selected Stanford offensive tackle Andrus Peat surprising many as he ignored the defensive needs once again. Then came the Saints 2nd first round selection and the popular pick of Clemson linebacker Stephone Anthony. Anthony became the first linebacker selected by the Saints in the first round since Mark Fields in 1995. Unknowingly to Anthony though was the fact that he had been drafted into a cloudy situation as the current Saints defensive coordinator (Rob Ryan) was viewed by most as a “DEAD man walking” as far as his status within that Saints coaching staff. Prior to the draft, Payton had secured the service of his good buddy Dennis Allen as senior defensive assistant on the staff, a move many viewed as a means to an end and the eventual replacement for Ryan down the line which is exactly what happened.

So… why would Payton not just fire Ryan and hire Allen?

Simple, IMAGE!!!

At that time Payton was under a lot of pressure as the team suffered through a 7-9 season the year before. As the defense was the main issue, many fans at that point had turned their attention to Payton, not Ryan as the the reason for the team's bad fortunes. It was Payton who in fact hire Ryan, it was Payton who chased high priced free agent bust and it was Payton who ultimately deserved his fair share of the blame. Payton was concerned about his image at this time and knew the situation wasn't to get any better anytime soon and so he kept Ryan onboard as the preverbal scapegoat that he knew he'd need later down the line.

It was no secret during the draft process in 2015 that Ryan was enamored with Anthony due to his combination of size, speed and leadership ability as Ryan viewed Anthony as an ideal fit in the defensive scheme Ryan envisioned running that season. After the selection was made Anthony became an immediate hit as ALL coaches began to praise the rookies intelligence and football instincts from the start of mini camp. Despite the Saints defensive struggles in the first ¾ of the season, Anthony appeared to be one of the lone bright spots as he eventually turned in the best defensive performance for a Saints rookie since hall of farmer Rickey Jackson. However, once Ryan was fired more than half way into the season and replaced by Allen we began to see a change in the utilization of the young defender.

Point blank… Stephone Anthony was Rob Ryan's guy, not Dennis Allen’s.

Heading into the next offseason most Saints fans were excited for the potential of there young defense and one of the reasons for the excitement was the idea that we had a young playmaking linebacker for once to build around. Then came the announcement that not only were the Saints signing washed up free agent linebacker James Laurinaitis to a ridiculous 3 year contract after he delivered one of the worst seasons I've seen a linebacker put on film, they were actually replacing Anthony with Laurinaitis in the middle and moving Anthony to the SAM position which is a position that in today's NFL is the equivalent to that of the fullback on offense.

So why should Payton be held accountable for all this?

During the draft process, Payton continually harps on the word “VISION”. Often stating that the most important part of the process is having a VISION for what and who the staff wants the prospect to be and KNOWING how he fits into the scheme.

Think about those words for a second… then try your best to translate that to how Payton and this staff has handled Anthony. Remember, The selection of Anthony represented the rebuilding process of this pathetic defense making him the focus of the rebuild and what they wanted their new defensive VISION to be. The Anthony selection was also the pick the Saints received in the Jimmy Graham trade putting that much more pressure on the Saints to hit with this selection.

So in the matter of less than two years, Anthony has gone from a rare 1st round Saints linebacker and start of a defensive rebuild then to a productive budding star to now being demoted then switched to a position that rarely sees the field to now on the bench… SOME VISION UGH???

Throughout this season, Sean Payton has really taken heat (rightfully so) over the handling of Anthony's career especially when the Saints defense got off to a slow start that saw Laurinaitis getting cut from the team. The play of Craig Robertson has in many ways saved both Payton and Allen from a total disaster within their own fan base and local media but that still hasn't gotten Payton and his decision making off the hook.

Then came this past week…

With Robertson out of the lineup (injury) Payton and Allen found themselves dependent on Anthony to not only play but move back to his original position at MIKE after playing all season at the SAM. Anthony delivered what Payton called a “winning performance” with a solid 9 tackles (1 for loss). Payton praised Anthony for stepping in and playing well while still throwing out a jab or two to justify benching his all year and he should have left it at that but no… Payton uncharacteristically has decided to open his mouth and spew his version of the whole Anthony situation to the public…

Quote:
"Some of the things that are hurting this player: He's explosive, he's disruptive and yet his key in diagnose and his instincts at times are off,". "You know, it's run, and he's dropping back in a pass mode, or it's pass and he's at the line of scrimmage. So, his ability to see and diagnose some very simple reads, for instance, are the keys for him to getting better, and I think he was able to do a little bit more of that the other night.

"But, that's been the thing that's kept him back, and quite honestly it's kept him back on special teams because a player like him who's on special teams, if he's covering a kick or covering a punt, generally a guy that can run and hit shows up. And he's been, I would say, just OK in that area."


This is a direct quote via teleconference yesterday after saying that Anthony delivered a “winning performance” the day before. The thing is that what Payton does not realize is that this looks bad on him regardless of whether he's right or wrong!

If he's wrong… if Anthony is a good player that just needs to play then he's the coach who held him back.

If Payton's right and Anthony is so far away that he isn't even dependable on special teams and had to be moved to a position that barely plays… the Payton is the guy who spent a 1st round selection on this defensive player to begin maybe the most important rebuild of his regime in NOLA!!!

Either way… Payton looks like a absolute FOOL here!!!

Then as if that wasn't enough, Payton slung out this little nugget for his fan base to digest…

Quote:
Our coaches have been in a catch-22 with Anthony this season. The best way for him to improve his instincts and ability to diagnose plays is to actually have opportunities in games, but the team can't afford to use a player who might hurt the team.


Are you fricking kidding me!!! Now we know why this staff has NEVER been able to develop any defensive players.

Then he hits us with this one about Anthony's position and where his future lies with the team…

Quote:
"I think it's something that obviously the sooner the better we can sort out," he said. "We wanted to move him to Sam feeling like it was a chance to give us our best three linebackers on the field. I don't know that we really got a full evaluation of that experiment."


I'm actually laughing reading this as I think about Payton's “VISION” speech he crams down our throats every draft season.

This is it people… as I said earlier, this situation with Anthony is a mere microcosm of a massive issue happening with this team. You want to know what's wrong with this team? You want to know what the problem really is? It's simple, as with any business or organization $h*T rolls down hill and when you have incompetent people running the show at the top it isn't long until the entire organization suffers form it.

The bottom line is that Sean Payton simply does not know what he's doing. Yes he's a great offensive mind but unfortunately he's not hired as a offensive coordinator here. Don't kid yourself, Payton is running this entire show. He picks the coaches, players and staff. It's a title and power he fought for in his second contract in 2010 and this franchise has suffered ever since and it's not gonna change until the guy causing the problems is removed but sadly as loyal Saints fans like we all are, we understand that Payton will get one more year in 2017 and he will likely go 9-7 or 10-6 just enough the continue the suffering and slow death of our beloved team.

How frustrating it is to be a WHODAT!



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Jlowe22


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Payton is garbage, but I still hope he takes us to the playoffs next year. The way things are looking, next year looks like it might seriously be Brees' last year of high level play, and maybe our last chance for decades.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jlowe22 wrote:
I think Payton is garbage, but I still hope he takes us to the playoffs next year. The way things are looking, next year looks like it might seriously be Brees' last year of high level play, and maybe our last chance for decades.


I tend to disagree...

I actually believe that this team has a solid young core of talent but no direction (or a flawed one) and would benifet greatly from a new voice. Bree's is what he is, a great passer that benefits from a friendly pass happy scheme and a poor defense but he has always made crucial mistakes at crucial times it's only that during our good seasons we had an opportunistic defense that bailed him out often when those mistakes were made. He's padding his resume in grand fashion because of all these flaws and the 2009 championship (which I'd argue was more Williams defense and a tremendous run by Hartley) has become his saving grace. Throwing for 300 yards in a NFL game has become expected by most QBs in today's game so what Bree's does on a stat sheet does not impress me but. What he does when the game is on the line disturbs me.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brees has two bad games and now he's always been a mediocre QB? He has like 41 game winning drives. By comparison, Brady has 49 and Rodgers has 15. Quit overreacting. 8 TDs, 0 INTs 117 rating during the 09 postseason. But sure, he was carried by an opportunistic defense that bailed him out all season. Brees has stats and records that go beyond the bulk stats that everyone loves to hate him for. He's always thrown more picks than Brady, but he has lower career int % than Peyton Manning.

These past two games have been an entire offensive effort, it isn't just Brees. Receivers aren't getting open, they're dropping TDs, the run game is non existent, the playcalling is garbage, the blocking is suspect, the special teams are getting terrible field position, and the sheer will to win seems to be missing from the entire offense. Brees deserves some blame, but questioning his entire career over a couple bad performances is completely unnecessary.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jlowe22 wrote:
Brees has two bad games and now he's always been a mediocre QB? He has like 41 game winning drives. By comparison, Brady has 49 and Rodgers has 15. Quit overreacting. 8 TDs, 0 INTs 117 rating during the 09 postseason. But sure, he was carried by an opportunistic defense that bailed him out all season. Brees has stats and records that go beyond the bulk stats that everyone loves to hate him for. He's always thrown more picks than Brady, but he has lower career int % than Peyton Manning.

These past two games have been an entire offensive effort, it isn't just Brees. Receivers aren't getting open, they're dropping TDs, the run game is non existent, the playcalling is garbage, the blocking is suspect, the special teams are getting terrible field position, and the sheer will to win seems to be missing from the entire offense. Brees deserves some blame, but questioning his entire career over a couple bad performances is completely unnecessary.


First off I never called him a mediocre QB nor did I say this was based on his last 2 games so you can stop putting word in my mouth to justify your point. What I have said was that Brees has (over the downward slide of the last 5 years) shown a trend of committing crucial mistakes at crucial points in the game and has done so for some time now and yes that dates back throughout his career.

The facts are that Brees has benefited from being a really good player that found a system that inflated his status to elite. This is why Brees in a Marty ball system in San Diego was just a good player but Brees in Payton's pass happy scheme he's elite (as far as stitistics go)... scheme does matter so let's not act like it dosent.

Fact is that I love Brees but I'm also not afraid to call him out for what he truly is... he's not what most Saints fans like to consider him, he's not a all time great in my opinion but a very good player that found a very good system that elected him to elite status. I think Brees anywhere would have been a pro bowl type guy but with the system he landed in with New Orleans he became a hall of farmer.

Now... let's also not act like his Super Bowl championship hasn't been his saving grace over the last 4 seasons when it comes to why he's still allowed to make the type of mis,takes he does and get away with it. Granted this is a unique situation here in New Orleans where due to the long history of losing and the aftermath of Hirricane Katrina Brees and Payton have garnered basically a "do no wrong" mentality here amoungst many fans but I never fell into that trap. Even during good seasons when Brees was on top of his game I would call him out for the lack of a running game which is why I truly feel some of our good seasons could have been Much better with more balance so this isn't just a "we're losing so I'm complaining thing".

I've had this stance for a while... I've always questioned whether Brees cared more about winning or the fact that we win because of him but now because of the continued losing and his mistakes being more highlighted people feel that someone like me is kicking him while he's down and if that's the case you truly never read or understood anything I've said about Brees in the past.

Look, we can debate Brees for days and still come to disagreements and that doesn't mean either of us are right and wrong so it's pointless. However what we can't debate is the fact that after the 2017 season the Saints will have a 18 million decision to make on Brees and if that decision is being made after the firing of Payton it won't be a good reflection on a Brees future here beyond next season... a lot riding on 2017 for this regime!
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're entitled to your opinion, but if you don't think Brees is an all time great, then neither is Brett Favre, John elway, terry Bradshaw, and Dan Marino becomes questionable since he never got the job done. Brees is pretty clearly better than the first three, who very regularly make most people's top ten list. He's not as good as Rodgers and Brady, but both of those QBs are arguable GOATs.

After the injury last year, and before the lions game this year, Brees has easily been one of the best QBs in the league. The truth is the Saints have been a garbage team since bounty gate, and all opposing teams have to do is focus on stopping the pass. The Saints defense has been straight up garbage, exacerbating the problem of our one dimensionality. They've been improving this year, but not surprisingly we've played a gauntlet of the best defenses in the league and the worst offenses. He might never play at an elite level again, but that doesn't invalidate anything he's done in the past.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jlowe22 wrote:
You're entitled to your opinion, but if you don't think Brees is an all time great, then neither is Brett Favre, John elway, terry Bradshaw, and Dan Marino becomes questionable since he never got the job done. Brees is pretty clearly better than the first three, who very regularly make most people's top ten list. He's not as good as Rodgers and Brady, but both of those QBs are arguable GOATs.

After the injury last year, and before the lions game this year, Brees has easily been one of the best QBs in the league. The truth is the Saints have been a garbage team since bounty gate, and all opposing teams have to do is focus on stopping the pass. The Saints defense has been straight up garbage, exacerbating the problem of our one dimensionality. They've been improving this year, but not surprisingly we've played a gauntlet of the best defenses in the league and the worst offenses. He might never play at an elite level again, but that doesn't invalidate anything he's done in the past.


I think we have a misunderstanding or difference of opinion on what a "All Time Great" is... I for one think that term just as the term "elite" is thrown around far to often.

Example... I believe that there is only 1 elite quarterback in the NFL right now and that's Brady. He's earned that title and then there are different tiers behind him.

As far as all time greats... that list is extremely short for me any many current and future hall of famers are left off that list. We live in a day and age where it seems many feel the need to hand these titles out to as many players as possible which to me diminishes what the truly great ones have accomplished by watering down the status they have earned by lumping undeserving players in their class.

For Brees... to me yes he's a hall of famer as his numbers support that but no he's not a "all time great". I respect everything he has accomplished and view him as one of the top players of his generation but that's about as much as he will get from me. I won't put him on a pedestal simply because he plays for my favorite team nor will I try to justify him into a category i don't feel he deserves to be in do to the way I personally view the criteria. Now others may view things differently and that ok.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you can define it however you want, but to me, an all time great is for sure top ten, and maybe top 15. Brees has a very strong case for being there. If he's not a first ballot hall of famer, it will be a travesty.

And if you're gonna knock Brees for playing in a pass happy system, you gotta also knock Marino for playing in a pass happy system, Montana for playing in the west coast system and having the GOAT wide receiver, Peyton for his career receiving core, and Brady for playing with the GOAT head coach and most competent franchise of all time.

And Brees is sixth all time in game winning drives since 1960, so he's not at all incapable of performing with the game on the line.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jlowe22 wrote:
Well, you can define it however you want, but to me, an all time great is for sure top ten, and maybe top 15. Brees has a very strong case for being there. If he's not a first ballot hall of famer, it will be a travesty.

And if you're gonna knock Brees for playing in a pass happy system, you gotta also knock Marino for playing in a pass happy system, Montana for playing in the west coast system and having the GOAT wide receiver, Peyton for his career receiving core, and Brady for playing with the GOAT head coach and most competent franchise of all time.

And Brees is sixth all time in game winning drives since 1960, so he's not at all incapable of performing with the game on the line.


Not just a pass happy system... a pass happy league and a league catered to creating this type of production.

Marino and Montana did play in pass friendly systems but they also played in an era where teams ran the football and defenders were allowed to put their hands on receivers. This isn't even a close discussion... how old are you? I'm curious because I need to know if you experienced that era as a fan because the stats that Marino and Montana put up in the era they played in is far superior and impressive to that of what Bree's has accomplished in his in my opinion.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Jlowe22 wrote:
Well, you can define it however you want, but to me, an all time great is for sure top ten, and maybe top 15. Brees has a very strong case for being there. If he's not a first ballot hall of famer, it will be a travesty.

And if you're gonna knock Brees for playing in a pass happy system, you gotta also knock Marino for playing in a pass happy system, Montana for playing in the west coast system and having the GOAT wide receiver, Peyton for his career receiving core, and Brady for playing with the GOAT head coach and most competent franchise of all time.

And Brees is sixth all time in game winning drives since 1960, so he's not at all incapable of performing with the game on the line.


Not just a pass happy system... a pass happy league and a league catered to creating this type of production.

Marino and Montana did play in pass friendly systems but they also played in an era where teams ran the football and defenders were allowed to put their hands on receivers. This isn't even a close discussion... how old are you? I'm curious because I need to know if you experienced that era as a fan because the stats that Marino and Montana put up in the era they played in is far superior and impressive to that of what Bree's has accomplished in his in my opinion.


When did I say that what they did wasn't impressive? I've had this argument at length recently, and I'm not going through that again. Today's elite QBs put up better stats than yesterday's because the league is now a passing league, that much is indisputable but has nothing to do with the point. I've watched Marino play, he's one of the greatest of all time but he isn't God in the flesh. He wouldn't throw 6k yards and 60 TDs in today's era. His 84 season would be statistically similar to Mannings 2013 season. There's only so much time in a football game to rack up stats. Everyone points to that one season, but they forget he averaged far less than that. He wasn't better than Brady or Rodgers or Manning. And wasn't head and shoulders better than Brees. He also never got the job done. Very few teams were geared around throwing the ball back then, defenses weren't built to prevent it.

This was never about whose stats were more impressive anyway, and I've never said Brees is better than any of those QBs.

But none of that is even the point, the point is all the great QBs have had systems in place around them that helped them succeed, and you can't use it against one without using it against all.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been on this Fire Payton bandwagon for a while. Feel free to join flks.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jlowe22 wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Jlowe22 wrote:
Well, you can define it however you want, but to me, an all time great is for sure top ten, and maybe top 15. Brees has a very strong case for being there. If he's not a first ballot hall of famer, it will be a travesty.

And if you're gonna knock Brees for playing in a pass happy system, you gotta also knock Marino for playing in a pass happy system, Montana for playing in the west coast system and having the GOAT wide receiver, Peyton for his career receiving core, and Brady for playing with the GOAT head coach and most competent franchise of all time.

And Brees is sixth all time in game winning drives since 1960, so he's not at all incapable of performing with the game on the line.


Not just a pass happy system... a pass happy league and a league catered to creating this type of production.

Marino and Montana did play in pass friendly systems but they also played in an era where teams ran the football and defenders were allowed to put their hands on receivers. This isn't even a close discussion... how old are you? I'm curious because I need to know if you experienced that era as a fan because the stats that Marino and Montana put up in the era they played in is far superior and impressive to that of what Bree's has accomplished in his in my opinion.


When did I say that what they did wasn't impressive? I've had this argument at length recently, and I'm not going through that again. Today's elite QBs put up better stats than yesterday's because the league is now a passing league, that much is indisputable but has nothing to do with the point. I've watched Marino play, he's one of the greatest of all time but he isn't God in the flesh. He wouldn't throw 6k yards and 60 TDs in today's era. His 84 season would be statistically similar to Mannings 2013 season. There's only so much time in a football game to rack up stats. Everyone points to that one season, but they forget he averaged far less than that. He wasn't better than Brady or Rodgers or Manning. And wasn't head and shoulders better than Brees. He also never got the job done. Very few teams were geared around throwing the ball back then, defenses weren't built to prevent it.

This was never about whose stats were more impressive anyway, and I've never said Brees is better than any of those QBs.

But none of that is even the point, the point is all the great QBs have had systems in place around them that helped them succeed, and you can't use it against one without using it against all.


I agree that this is a pointless conversation... the only stat that matters to me when it comes to QB's is the win loss record and championships. I get that football is the ultimate team sport but statistics (particularly these days) don't tell a tire story about a player all the time but and overall win loss record does.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

navysaintsfan wrote:
I've been on this Fire Payton bandwagon for a while. Feel free to join flks.


Yes you have navyman... so what do you think about 2017, will Payton win enough to save his job here?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
navysaintsfan wrote:
I've been on this Fire Payton bandwagon for a while. Feel free to join flks.


Yes you have navyman... so what do you think about 2017, will Payton win enough to save his job here?


To put it short and sweet, no. I expect more of the same. We have been waiting years for change from him. Why on earth would I expect it next season? I am done with Sean. Done with Loomis. And honestly, I am emotionally done with this team for right now. I watch the games out of habit and because I generally enjoy football, but watching the Saints I may as well be a fan of another team for the way react. Big Ingram run, 50+ yard TD strike from Brees, Cam jordan Sack funble would ge the same emotional response as an Ingram fumble, overturned positive play, and bonehead INT thrown by Brees.

A general "Eh" and then I engage in rich and complex conversation with my daughter on why Raphael is the most noble of the Ninja Turtles. Much more fun for me.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
the only stat that matters to me when it comes to QB's is the win loss record and championships. I get that football is the ultimate team sport but statistics (particularly these days) don't tell a tire story about a player all the time but and overall win loss record does.
I'm not sure I agree with this at all. To my knowledge, Brees has never played defense. His ungodly stats over the last 10 years running are terrific, but you can't pin losses solely on him when the perpetual swiss cheese defenses allows more points than Brees' high flying offenses have.

I get that we want to see championships, and that it is the ultimate marker for a player, but they've got to have help.

And the 2 chances Brees has had, he delivered on the 1st, and delivered on the 2nd until the defense folded like a f'ing lawn chair and sent the 49ers to the Super Bowl, a Super Bowl that would have been at home, and I feel the Saints would have trashed the Ravens.
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