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Magnifico


Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 216
Location: London
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mid Iowa wrote:
jcvoodoo wrote:
So, I (for one) am glad they play NFL games in London. I am stationed in England so it'll be the only chance I get to see my beloved Saints in 10 years. So, sorry if I don't agree with some of the comments in this thread.
First of all, thanks for your service.
Now, you like the games in London because you're stationed in England. That's great! So should we expand to NFL Japan, Africa, NFL Afghanistan (LOL, they'd sh*t when they heard the term "Pig Skin") and everywhere else people are stationed?

Sure, it's great for some fanfare, no argument there. What it sucks for is the players and their families, and the economy for the home team that literally loses a game. They lose 1/8 of their revenue because Goodell has a hard on for Europe.

Here's on for you. Did you know the NFL has yet to sell out a game at Wembley? They consistently fall over 6000 short of a sell out. woo.....


What on earth are you talking about? Laughing Laughing
Attendance of the last 5 wembley games.

4.10.15 - 83,986
25.10.15 - 84,021
1.11.15 - 83,624
2.10.16 - 83,798
30.10.16 - 84,448

It's an 86,000 seater stadium for NFL games [4,000 seats removed/not used due to alterations to pitch size] and every single time they've easily been within 3,000 of the capacity.
There is not a single NFL stadium that has a bigger capacity or attendance than Wembley stadium either. Confused It's like selling out the MetLife and tacking on an extra thousand or two people. Don't make up fallacies.

How does it suck for the families any more than certain away games in the US? There is a couple of extra days travel, how is that so much worse than the Saints sticking their training camp in Virginia when the majority of the families will live in and around New Orleans? Or a trip up to Boston, or cross country to Seattle?
They return to a bye week additionally where they're not allowed in the facilities till the Monday of the following week typically after being dismissed on the Wednesday, which based on most NFL players makes up for missing the previous few days with families, if they live with them at all.

Retailers do lose 1/8 of the gameday economy, but if a business model is built on only 8 guaranteed Sundays; September - first week of January then no wonder why it may be failing. However that's an understandable concern.

I get it. Americans don't want their sport tainted by us Europeans watching the game or whatever. Or you simply don't like the games being abroad. However some of your reasoning is downright wrong/made up. I'm grateful for the opportunity personally but I've watch games both in the states and here. Love them both.
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jcvoodoo


Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 716
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magnifico wrote:
Mid Iowa wrote:
jcvoodoo wrote:
So, I (for one) am glad they play NFL games in London. I am stationed in England so it'll be the only chance I get to see my beloved Saints in 10 years. So, sorry if I don't agree with some of the comments in this thread.
First of all, thanks for your service.
Now, you like the games in London because you're stationed in England. That's great! So should we expand to NFL Japan, Africa, NFL Afghanistan (LOL, they'd sh*t when they heard the term "Pig Skin") and everywhere else people are stationed?

Sure, it's great for some fanfare, no argument there. What it sucks for is the players and their families, and the economy for the home team that literally loses a game. They lose 1/8 of their revenue because Goodell has a hard on for Europe.

Here's on for you. Did you know the NFL has yet to sell out a game at Wembley? They consistently fall over 6000 short of a sell out. woo.....


What on earth are you talking about? Laughing Laughing
Attendance of the last 5 wembley games.

4.10.15 - 83,986
25.10.15 - 84,021
1.11.15 - 83,624
2.10.16 - 83,798
30.10.16 - 84,448

It's an 86,000 seater stadium for NFL games [4,000 seats removed/not used due to alterations to pitch size] and every single time they've easily been within 3,000 of the capacity.
There is not a single NFL stadium that has a bigger capacity or attendance than Wembley stadium either. Confused It's like selling out the MetLife and tacking on an extra thousand or two people. Don't make up fallacies.

How does it suck for the families any more than certain away games in the US? There is a couple of extra days travel, how is that so much worse than the Saints sticking their training camp in Virginia when the majority of the families will live in and around New Orleans? Or a trip up to Boston, or cross country to Seattle?
They return to a bye week additionally where they're not allowed in the facilities till the Monday of the following week typically after being dismissed on the Wednesday, which based on most NFL players makes up for missing the previous few days with families, if they live with them at all.

Retailers do lose 1/8 of the gameday economy, but if a business model is built on only 8 guaranteed Sundays; September - first week of January then no wonder why it may be failing. However that's an understandable concern.

I get it. Americans don't want their sport tainted by us Europeans watching the game or whatever. Or you simply don't like the games being abroad. However some of your reasoning is downright wrong/made up. I'm grateful for the opportunity personally but I've watch games both in the states and here. Love them both.

^^^ this. BRILLANT points Magnifico.

Even if I wasn't stationed in England, I'm not opposed to the NFL playing a few games outside the US.

Mid Iowa,
May I add, if you're worried about the money...did you take into count the exchange rate? The pound is stronger than the dollar. And, dare I mention that the London games are most likely more publicity the those "struggling" teams might have for the weekend they're in London?

It's my pleasure to serve. Not many will devote their lives this way. Your first question is way overboard, I think. Besides, it's not even possible to get host nation agreements for most of the countries we have a presence in.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Retailers do lose 1/8 of the gameday economy, but if a business model is built on only 8 guaranteed Sundays; September - first week of January then no wonder why it may be failing. However that's an understandable concern.


I hear your argument but you lose me here even tho your kinda trying to actknowledge the economic loss but still kinda underscore it and it's overall effects.

The NFL isn't like other leagues... these home cities have only 8 home games per year and most if not all of the deals brokered between the cities and team are predicated to those cities and communities benefiting from those 8 games and potential post season games. These cities, communities and tax payers invest a lot into those 8 games of return and yes taking away a mere 1/8 of those potential funds is a hell of a lot when you consider the amount invested by the local communities to have that ability for those earnings.

Also, not all NFL teams are major markets... cities like New Orleans who depend on those 8 NFL weeks and payoffs on Sundays are paramount to the sustainability for those teams in those cities. So when you consider EVERYTHING involved and who at the end of the day are ultimately paying the bills and the cause and effect of everything involved... yes it is absolutely ASININE for the NFL to be taking ANY of these home games from the cities who rightfully negotiated to host them and for the tax payers who are footing the bill for those games.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jcvoodoo wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
jcvoodoo wrote:
So, how many of you have ever travelled outside the US? Or, your home state?


I've been to every state in this great nation and every continent on this earth... why do you ask???


Even Antarctica? Wow! I've only been to 4 of the 7 continents. That's cool, Worm. I bet you have some great stories.

I think I misread the intent of some of the comments and reacted (got irritated). Sorry. To me, it sounded like people were bashing England just because the NFL plays a couple games in London. Again, I probably took things the wrong way. For that, please accept my apology.


I've been an Unlimited Master of Ships and Towing for over 15 years and I've traveled this world and seen with my eyes what most of what many only see on the internet. I've been blessed and I enjoy what I do however it does come as a personal sacrifice to my family. I'm also a merchant mariner who is always willing and prepared if my service is ever called upon. Stories... YES I have stories, even ones from pole to pole including Antarctica mostly on icebreakers for reasearch vessels.
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Mid Iowa


Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Posts: 484
Location: Iowa
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magnifico wrote:
Mid Iowa wrote:
jcvoodoo wrote:
So, I (for one) am glad they play NFL games in London. I am stationed in England so it'll be the only chance I get to see my beloved Saints in 10 years. So, sorry if I don't agree with some of the comments in this thread.
First of all, thanks for your service.
Now, you like the games in London because you're stationed in England. That's great! So should we expand to NFL Japan, Africa, NFL Afghanistan (LOL, they'd sh*t when they heard the term "Pig Skin") and everywhere else people are stationed?

Sure, it's great for some fanfare, no argument there. What it sucks for is the players and their families, and the economy for the home team that literally loses a game. They lose 1/8 of their revenue because Goodell has a hard on for Europe.

Here's on for you. Did you know the NFL has yet to sell out a game at Wembley? They consistently fall over 6000 short of a sell out. woo.....


What on earth are you talking about? Laughing Laughing
Attendance of the last 5 wembley games.

4.10.15 - 83,986
25.10.15 - 84,021
1.11.15 - 83,624
2.10.16 - 83,798
30.10.16 - 84,448

It's an 86,000 seater stadium for NFL games [4,000 seats removed/not used due to alterations to pitch size] and every single time they've easily been within 3,000 of the capacity.
There is not a single NFL stadium that has a bigger capacity or attendance than Wembley stadium either. Confused It's like selling out the MetLife and tacking on an extra thousand or two people. Don't make up fallacies.

How does it suck for the families any more than certain away games in the US? There is a couple of extra days travel, how is that so much worse than the Saints sticking their training camp in Virginia when the majority of the families will live in and around New Orleans? Or a trip up to Boston, or cross country to Seattle?
They return to a bye week additionally where they're not allowed in the facilities till the Monday of the following week typically after being dismissed on the Wednesday, which based on most NFL players makes up for missing the previous few days with families, if they live with them at all.

Retailers do lose 1/8 of the gameday economy, but if a business model is built on only 8 guaranteed Sundays; September - first week of January then no wonder why it may be failing. However that's an understandable concern.

I get it. Americans don't want their sport tainted by us Europeans watching the game or whatever. Or you simply don't like the games being abroad. However some of your reasoning is downright wrong/made up. I'm grateful for the opportunity personally but I've watch games both in the states and here. Love them both.
Wow, you got a lot off your chest there......

So let's talk about it. Wembley is a 90000 seat stadium, pardon me that I didn't know that 4000 were tarped off. So my point still stands that they haven't sold out a game yet. If it were such a hot ticket, perhaps they would sell out so fast it'd make your head spin. So yeah, my numbers are off, yet the fact remains.

For the families: most teams spend more that just a few days there. The families are out of contact for about a week. To your point about training camp, this is IN ADDITION TO, not a replacement of. So, now the families are without their man for an additional week. That's my point. Maybe you're cool with it, maybe they are too, but it's still a fact.

If you think that lost revenue doesn't hurt a company (any company) then you're just blind to running a business.

You ever put together a business plan? You account for every certainty, and then growth, expansion etc... You employ around it, you invest around it, and you make huge money decisions based on it. Then the NFL says "we're taking 1/8 of what you counted on away" and you think businesses are cool with that? How about you just send me 1/8 of your pay, and we'll call it cool.

So, no jcvoodoo, and no, madnifico, this is not a "brilliant" response. It's simply rewording things to make it look like you have some sort of defense for disrupting US based businesses for an agenda of growing 1 US business' revenue, and that's the NFL!
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Jlowe22


Joined: 27 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like England, its my second favorite country, and I can visit without having to learn a new language. But I rather play my home games in my first favorite country. I don't care where away games are played, but the point is someone always has to lose a home game, whether its us or not, it will one day be us.

Either way, its not as big of a deal as I made it sound, and I'm glad you'll finally get to go to a Saints game. This thing is growing though, and I don't want it to get out of hand with large numbers of overseas games every year.
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jcvoodoo


Joined: 26 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mid Iowa wrote:

For the families: most teams spend more that just a few days there. The families are out of contact for about a week. To your point about training camp, this is IN ADDITION TO, not a replacement of. So, now the families are without their man for an additional week. That's my point. Maybe you're cool with it, maybe they are too, but it's still a fact.

If you think that lost revenue doesn't hurt a company (any company) then you're just blind to running a business.

You ever put together a business plan? You account for every certainty, and then growth, expansion etc... You employ around it, you invest around it, and you make huge money decisions based on it. Then the NFL says "we're taking 1/8 of what you counted on away" and you think businesses are cool with that? How about you just send me 1/8 of your pay, and we'll call it cool.

So, no jcvoodoo, and no, madnifico, this is not a "brilliant" response. It's simply rewording things to make it look like you have some sort of defense for disrupting US based businesses for an agenda of growing 1 US business' revenue, and that's the NFL!


Please allow me to respond to the above bolded statement.

Statement 1: How are they out of contact? With technology nowadays, it's rather difficult "to be out of contact" with anyone. I just don't your logic here. Now, if your talking about the fact they are not physically with there families? That's only one aspect of "contact." Also, your talking about people who can afford to be their families if they chose. So, really the family has the potential to get memories only a few of us are privileged enough to have.

Statement 2: The NFL is considering extending the number of games in the near future. I am pretty sure that the NFL has taken "games abroad" and the "perceived hardship of players and smaller markets" (as you allude to) into account in there decisions. Like it or not, agree with it or not, the NFL IS a successful business and successful businesses DO take things like this into account. BTW, I AM an American...I just don't get why you seem so upset or passionate about this. I am inclined to say the NFL has a plan to make as please as many involved as possible. Oh, and that's despite my feelings about Roger Goodell.

You see it one way and I see it another. So, let's agree to disagree.
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Mid Iowa


Joined: 10 Dec 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jcvoodoo wrote:

Please allow me to respond to the above bolded statement.

Statement 2: The NFL is considering extending the number of games in the near future. I am pretty sure that the NFL has taken "games abroad" and the "perceived hardship of players and smaller markets" (as you allude to) into account in there decisions. Like it or not, agree with it or not, the NFL IS a successful business and successful businesses DO take things like this into account.

You see it one way and I see it another. So, let's agree to disagree.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I've got two things to chat about.

1: Your "Statement 2:" You and I both know the NFL doesn't really take the players into consideration. We both know they're keeping a cap on CTE, they're trying to expand the regular season, they're sending guys on Thursday night games after playing Sunday night road games and so on. The only rules the NFL abides to regarding the players is whatever is in the collective bargaining agreement. Other than that, they care about revenue.

2: Not all players are paid like Drew Brees. Some of these guys make peanuts. For instance, Willie Snead makes less than $500k per year. He has to pay his agent, pay for his training etc... and likely has a bit of a life style. So, I agree that's a pretty good salary, that's for a very limited time. He needs to be saving, big time, or he'll be broke within a few years of being out of the NFL. So I can't agree with your affordability comment.

I'll leave it there. I think we're quite a ways apart on this one, so let's just continue to have a good time with the rest of our conversations. Generally we agree on things, just not this time.

Cheers!
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jcvoodoo


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This entire thread was about 1 game per season. And, that's not a constant at all. $500k is peanuts? Thanks for the laugh there. But, I DO get what you're saying. In comparison, $500k is peanuts versus millions. Like you said, we just see things a tad different here. Disagreements are healthy and I'm glad to see that you're not one to badmouth or come down on someone because of it. You say we should keep things amicable? Of course, there's absolutely no reason to treat this any other way.

The CBA needs to be revamped. I definitely agree with you there. This, to me, overall situation reeks of yet another instance of greedy management. And, it's sad.

I agree with your statements about saving for retirement and what not. But, there's a cliché for this. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Skøl!
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Magnifico


Joined: 01 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mid Iowa wrote:
Wow, you got a lot off your chest there......

So let's talk about it. Wembley is a 90000 seat stadium, pardon me that I didn't know that 4000 were tarped off. So my point still stands that they haven't sold out a game yet. If it were such a hot ticket, perhaps they would sell out so fast it'd make your head spin. So yeah, my numbers are off, yet the fact remains.

For the families: most teams spend more that just a few days there. The families are out of contact for about a week. To your point about training camp, this is IN ADDITION TO, not a replacement of. So, now the families are without their man for an additional week. That's my point. Maybe you're cool with it, maybe they are too, but it's still a fact.

If you think that lost revenue doesn't hurt a company (any company) then you're just blind to running a business.

You ever put together a business plan? You account for every certainty, and then growth, expansion etc... You employ around it, you invest around it, and you make huge money decisions based on it. Then the NFL says "we're taking 1/8 of what you counted on away" and you think businesses are cool with that? How about you just send me 1/8 of your pay, and we'll call it cool.

So, no jcvoodoo, and no, madnifico, this is not a "brilliant" response. It's simply rewording things to make it look like you have some sort of defense for disrupting US based businesses for an agenda of growing 1 US business' revenue, and that's the NFL!


It's not tarped off. They can't use those seat for safety reasons due to the field adjustments that have to be made for an NFL game. You don't "tarp off" the expensive seats you can sell for £120-£160 a ticket. [Basically $200+].
Trust me, apart from some of the seats in the rafters the NFL London Series games sell out ridiculously fast. Majority of good seats gone within the first 2 days if not less. It's a hugely popular event not just for Brits but most Europeans. Same with NBA London, even mediocre teams sell out in a couple of hours.
So your numbers and "facts" are well off here.

I didn't realise the advancements in Technology given SmartPhones, Skype and the Internet meant they had zero contact. Most teams head out Monday-Wednesday and fly back on Sunday night/Monday Morning. I struggle to see how this is so much of a pain in comparison to lets say a back to back on the west coast like several teams have had this season. [Panthers for example where @Raiders then @Seattle [on SNF] from the 27th to 5th. That's a heck of a lot of time away from families also, and the distances are comparable!]. Your exaggerating a moot point. NFL Players and Families [much like most sportsmen] are surely highly aware of the necessity of time away from home. Both during the season and in parts of the off-season.

I never said lost revenue didn't hurt a company, I stated that a business shouldn't be highly dependent on 8 weekends a year. They're a boost but not the be all and end all. The NFL Home Games such make a hige boost to brought in revenue, but given their announced the December ahead, as someone who now runs their own business there is enough time to plan strategies and interventions to mitigate the losses.
I know it's not perfect, and unfortunately the MLB, NBA and NFL get away with far too much siphoning of public sector funds to go into the pockets of the mega-rich, so it's the point, as whodatworm brought up earlier than I can understand a hige amount of angst about. However this will continue to happen unfortunately given the US franchise based model in sports. Few teams get away with holding their communities to ransom this side of the pond, but then few teams make quite the same money.

I love how stating that figures were made up and wrong, was defence for the NFL. It was reasoning for another viewpoint. It's how we learn by sharing opinion and understanding. There is much the NFL does which I largely disagree with.
The NFL wants a global appeal, I get it, it's called American Football, but others want to learn to love and learn the sport too. Just like I had over the past 8 seasons.
I can understand the disagreement on the business standpoint, well primarily local business not MNC's, but on Europeans not filling stadiums, fatigue or time away from families I disagree. A lot of us this side of the pond are truly mad for the sport. It's usurped Football (Soccer), Basketball and Formula 1 (catalogue of issues with this sport) as my favourite sport.

Next time lets not put the silly "Madnifico" spin on things too. I'm not mad, just offering a different viewpoint.
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Mid Iowa


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magnifico wrote:
I'm not mad, just offering a different viewpoint.

We're simply not going to agree on the topic.

I don't just dislike the NFL in Europe, I actually f'ing hate it!!! And like jcvoodoo, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Here's why I don't like it, and it's not because I don't like football being in Europe, or anywhere, really. It's because Goodell and company will ultimately do something stupid like create one team (or 2 to balance things out) in Europe. The travel and transition times are going to be horrible for anyone making that trek. The team that is there will be lucky to go 8-8, and they will be zombies by the end of the season.

Can you imagine traveling from Europe to Seattle, then back for a home game, then perhaps another trip to LA or Phoenix, or San Fran, and then back home? That's basically a 12+ hour flight, let alone all the other transport. Please tell me how this is going to work AND be competitive.

So, I like that Europeans get to watch live football (maybe they would still have it if they'd have treated it with some fanfare when there was NFL Europe, but whatever) I can just see where Goodell is going with this, and I don't like it. I don't want a team there.

Next time I have a book report, I'll look you up for a reference. I don't know about Europe, don't care about Europe, don't care to visit Europe, and sure as hell not going to take more than about 2 minutes looking up facts and figures about anything Europe. They can doze Wembley for all I care.
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NS922


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't have a problem with the UK games. The people who think it's a big deal are exaggerating. Maybe they should start having really good teams host these games since they're more likely to have another home game in the playoffs, if one less home game is such a problem.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NS922 wrote:
I really don't have a problem with the UK games. The people who think it's a big deal are exaggerating. Maybe they should start having really good teams host these games since they're more likely to have another home game in the playoffs, if one less home game is such a problem.


Personally I have a dog in this fight as a longtime season ticket holder of the Saints and New Orleans resident/tax payer.

I understand the view point of those fans not in my position who feel it's not a big deal because they personally aren't affected by such a move, however when the team and NFL requires early payments for future season ticket packages without determining these games before hand and without reguard to the package price I have a issue with that. Also as a investor any friend to many local business owners in the city who is so ingrained within the team as a part of the fabric of the community and one who realizes just how VERY important each and every one of these home games are to the health of the local business economy, I simply cannot agree with your assessment of this situation.

Again I get the fact that this is bias view point but one I feel that is earned because if my personal and monetary investment into this team. This is a much deeper issue once you begin to involve the tax payer (local) situation into the equation as at the end of the day these citizens are paying a hefty price for a service they deserve to have on Sundays and. It given away to a foreign land with the mere explanation that it's no big deal... because it is!
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NS922


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally get your stance on it, but as far as I can tell the city hasn't gone bankrupt since we hosted the Chargers over there in 2008. It's only one game every blue moon. We're the road team next year. I'm not trying to say it's not something legitimate to take issue with, but there are two sides to it and you just have to believe the positives will be greater than the negatives. As you can tell, the people over there who love these games and the opportunities they bring think it's a great thing. It's all a matter of perspective.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea, it's ok to screw the season ticket holders, as long as it's just every once in a while.
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