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Ron Rivera has got to go
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iknowcool


Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 17917
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:43 pm    Post subject: Ron Rivera has got to go Reply with quote

I have never been a huge Rivera fan. Even last year, despite our success, there always remained the issue of closing out games. We are far too conservative - even more conservative than the usual teams. I compared it a lot to Norv Turner.

Once again, we are eyeing down a losing season. While the talent hasn't been great, the coaching has been horrific. The Newton benching is one of the worst decisions I have seen a coach make in awhile, but the one play that defines Rivera is while down by 23 and in the other teams territory in the second half, we opt to punt instead of trying to make it a game.

We can do worse than Rivera, I get that. But we can sure as hell do better.
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Panthers11


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, I agree.
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tbrown2699


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd start with a new OC. Shula's offense is done. The read option is finished in the nfl as a primary attack. There is so much wrong with this team that I don't know where to begin...
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FriendlyEnemy


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe he does, but we are not going to fire a guy who had a 15-1 season last year, took us to the super bowl, and won his second COtY. It's not going to happen.

What can happen is that Shula gets the boot. Dude needed to get lost from the get go. Outside last year our offense has looked anemic ever since Chudzinski left.
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CTPanthersFan58


Joined: 08 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rivera really does need to go. He may be a good leader, but is a horrendous coach.

Before this game +42 point differential in the first 3 quarters.
-49 in the 4th. Even going back to last year, when we got outscored and "outplayed" in the 2nd half, that is directly associated to coaching and our lack of adjustments.

Dreadful clock management. I haven't watched another team in the NFL do it worse. I believe it was the Bucs or Saints game this year where he managed it terribly.

Then there's the Chiefs game. NO Timeouts, 20 seconds left, on our 10 and there of all places he decides to go for it? Even if we get a bomb downfield we can't do anything with no timeouts.

I hope this Newton benching is a sign of him power tripping and realizing his job is on the line so he either A] Shapes up or B] Angers upper management
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CTPanthersFan58


Joined: 08 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tbrown2699 wrote:
I'd start with a new OC. Shula's offense is done. The read option is finished in the nfl as a primary attack. There is so much wrong with this team that I don't know where to begin...


Yeah the read option doesn't work. It's a gimmick in the NFL and we still try to use it. If they really want to protect Cam, stop using it, when he fakes and runs with it he technically is a runner and takes BIG shots from players who love to gun for him.
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Impulser12000


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i really do not like conservative ron. riverboat ron was really the only one I was rooting for. I do miss chud though. the O has looked putrid ( I really don't know how last year happened- seems like a dream) no imagination, no changes or tweaks or adjustments. cam has regressed, KB has disappeared, the run game has been pathetic, just head scratchingly bad
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Lasus83


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FriendlyEnemy wrote:
Maybe he does, but we are not going to fire a guy who had a 15-1 season last year, took us to the super bowl, and won his second COtY. It's not going to happen.

What can happen is that Shula gets the boot. Dude needed to get lost from the get go. Outside last year our offense has looked anemic ever since Chudzinski left.


Pretty much this.

Shula is done, imo...

Lets be honest, though. We had the same OL last year for the entire year. Sure, it was mid-level on the outsides but it was the same group the entire time. This year we have been a revolving door. So, a certain amount of blame needs to be assigned to injuries.

That said, this is the first game where we had zero chance from the get-go.

Really showed me that the locker room has given up...

Frankly, that's fine. I dunno if we are mathematically eliminated... but we are not going to the playoffs.

I'm in the camp of starting the 2017 planning.

I don't want us to get embarrassed... but I'm not pulling for 8-8.

2016 has been a disaster season and it's time to just put it in the rearview.
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panther dude


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tbrown2699 wrote:
I'd start with a new OC. Shula's offense is done. The read option is finished in the nfl as a primary attack. There is so much wrong with this team that I don't know where to begin...


Same. Shula is a good shock move to insight some change. If the team is no good after a real OC and Gettleman giving a damn then sure, dump Ron.
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Toughguy77


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rivera is going nowhere. Sure, he's not everyone's favorite conservative coach, but again he led us to the Super Bowl last year.

Shula is the one to go. He found success last year utilizing Cam and his weapons but since has not changed anything. He must have forgotten coaches watch footage and study offensive schemes. The option style is not as effective and defenses know how to beat it when you have lame offensive tackles.

Who do y'all wanna see get handed the keys to our offense?
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Zithers


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'd rather dump shula. our offense is crap. can't get off to a good start. can't do anything in situational drives. we aren't finding ways to get cam running. the ball isn't being spread around. philly and funchess have been avoided like the plague and we're just funneling the ball to benji and olsen. spreading the ball around was great last season. i think we easily have the personnel to succeed (though i still want to find a new OT obviously).

special teams is also something we have to fix. desperately need to find a competent ST coach.

defense we just need to get a better pass rush going and we should be fine. also replace tre boston... i think bradberry, coleman, and worley will be fine.
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Cypher


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think firing Rivera solves anything. I'm not even convinced firing Shula does.

A year ago, we were the #1 scoring offense with Shula and Rivera. This year, yet again, the offense can't get out of its own way. Some of it is playcalling, for sure. Some of it is just a lack of damn execution. Drops. Overthrows. Picks. Fumbles. Missed assignments.

I cannot count how many throws Cam has sent Benjamin's way and he's either out of position, running the wrong route, half-heartedly goes up for it or just catches it and falls over. Dude isn't great. In no feasible way is he a legit "#1".

Having said that, going back to Steve Smith, our offense functions far better without a strict #1. With Funchess, Olsen, Philly and Ginn, our passing game flourished regularly and Cam spread the ball around. The moment Benjamin was back, he started staring him down.

Take last night, in the red zone late in the 3rd, 4th and goal;

Cam takes the snap
Stares at Benjamin the entire way
Fires a duck in his direction
Benjamin commits offensive PI
Turnover on downs

Benjamin hampers our offense more than he helps. He's big, slow and lazy. I never understood why people were so enamored with him back in 2014 and I understand it even less now. He's Randy Moss with like a fourth of the talent.

If we fire Shula, I won't lose sleep. I don't think it will matter as long as half our offensive players are wildly inconsistent and don't execute.

The read-option gimmicky nonsense needs to go. Either Cam needs to learn to win from the pocket and use his legs as a weapon to keep defenses honest, or we're going to look real stupid in a few years when his legs stop becoming such a force and he has no choice but to rely on his arm.
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Lasus83


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cypher wrote:
I don't think firing Rivera solves anything. I'm not even convinced firing Shula does.

A year ago, we were the #1 scoring offense with Shula and Rivera. This year, yet again, the offense can't get out of its own way. Some of it is playcalling, for sure. Some of it is just a lack of damn execution. Drops. Overthrows. Picks. Fumbles. Missed assignments.

I cannot count how many throws Cam has sent Benjamin's way and he's either out of position, running the wrong route, half-heartedly goes up for it or just catches it and falls over. Dude isn't great. In no feasible way is he a legit "#1".

Having said that, going back to Steve Smith, our offense functions far better without a strict #1. With Funchess, Olsen, Philly and Ginn, our passing game flourished regularly and Cam spread the ball around. The moment Benjamin was back, he started staring him down.

Take last night, in the red zone late in the 3rd, 4th and goal;

Cam takes the snap
Stares at Benjamin the entire way
Fires a duck in his direction
Benjamin commits offensive PI
Turnover on downs

Benjamin hampers our offense more than he helps. He's big, slow and lazy. I never understood why people were so enamored with him back in 2014 and I understand it even less now. He's Randy Moss with like a fourth of the talent.

If we fire Shula, I won't lose sleep. I don't think it will matter as long as half our offensive players are wildly inconsistent and don't execute.

The read-option gimmicky nonsense needs to go. Either Cam needs to learn to win from the pocket and use his legs as a weapon to keep defenses honest, or we're going to look real stupid in a few years when his legs stop becoming such a force and he has no choice but to rely on his arm.


KB seemed like he did so much better in 2014. I dunno if KB is the problem here... I'd say it has much more to do with our revolving door on the Oline and a scheme that has not adapted by implementing shorter patterns and checkdowns.

Cam is a monster when throwing 20+ yards downfield... but it takes time to get a WR deep... time he has not had.

I think this is why we are ready to get rid of shula 1 season after boasting the #1 scoring offense... we have not seen adaptation to overcome the lack of time for Cam. Slants, curls, crossing patterns as the primary route instead of deep in's.
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iknowcool


Joined: 15 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cypher wrote:
I don't think firing Rivera solves anything. I'm not even convinced firing Shula does.

A year ago, we were the #1 scoring offense with Shula and Rivera. This year, yet again, the offense can't get out of its own way. Some of it is playcalling, for sure. Some of it is just a lack of damn execution. Drops. Overthrows. Picks. Fumbles. Missed assignments.


The issue I have with the offense is it isn't sustainable for 4 quarters. Putting up points, even this year, isn't a problem - we're 10th in the league in scoring. However, our offense is too dependent on the big play. I'm tired of the routes that take ten years to develop. Some of it is on Cam. But a lot of it is on the play-calling. I can't blame Shula for the offensive line, but I blame him for not adjusting around it. Benjamin isn't a good player and I would prefer we trade him away, but as long as we have him, we should use him well and not consistently assign him with routes 10+ yards downfield.

I forgot the stat they brought up on SNF. Cam is like 3rd in the league in amount of passes attempted downfield. Without looking, I would wager that he's consistently in the top five in that regard. Considering our pass protection isn't great and Ginn is the only receiver who excels at going deep (and that is only if he burns his guy - he isn't a great route runner or make a great play on the ball in the air), there is no reason for that to be the case. It's why we'll have a great drive and then go on a stretch of 3 and outs. We're too hit or miss. It is good with the right personnel or when everything is clicking, like it was last year. But I think it is partially why we are so prone to giving up huge leads. We stall out on offense all the time because we don't have many quick hitters.

It feels like we change the offense around drastically with Cam in the game. The first play of the game for DA was a roll-out intended to be a quick pass. We rarely get that with Cam.

I don't really mind the read-options/designed runs much. We have the QB to run it and it creates a huge advantage for us. It's just our offensive line sucks in run blocking this year, so asking them to hold onto blocks that long is pushing it, and it just doesn't fit Stewart. He's a downhill runner. A lot of our run plays ask him to do too much laterally.

Quote:
KB seemed like he did so much better in 2014.


Even in 2014, Benjamin was inconsistent. Probably even worse - he dropped a ton of passes. I was excited to see him come back because I remember the rave reviews he was getting in camp last year, but it is more of the same. His hands have improved somewhat, but his route-running is atrocious. Worst in the league. Cam always seems to be off-sync with him, an issue Newton doesn't have with any other receiver on the team. He might not throw it accurately, but he always seems to be on sync with Olsen, Ginn, etc. I don't know how after 3 years, Benjamin can't at least get in position. And the penalties make matters worse. He's a penalty machine.
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iknowcool


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't mind bringing Rivera back for another year. I don't think he's a good coach, but we can (obviously) win with him. I'm just not sure we can do it consistently. I would never blame a coach for things that he simply can't control - our lack of pass rush, for example. Hell, the fact that we rank so highly in sacks this year (top 3 I think?) is a testament to how good our defensive coaching is. Short and Addison are the only good, consistent pass rushers on our team and the latter is situational. That our secondary overachieves every year is again a testament to our coaching.

But the poor clock management and basic head coaching responsibilities, stuff like that, is tiring.
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