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Andy Reid, Bob Sutton and staff need to go. Retire or Fire
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jimmydee1


Joined: 20 Sep 2013
Posts: 441
Location: Missouri
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first wife couldn't admit to a mistake either. She'd keep adding twists to words or phrases, and re-direct the statement to another convenient premise, or expect me to read her mind when the language clearly pointed in a totally different direction. To Point: That's why she is my FIRST wife, and not my current (and last) wife.

Conclusion: I'll play first wife..."draw from it what you will, it won't matter either way, I'll still be right!!"

Now, it's time for some Makers and a good cigar. Party on Garth.....

ps: no need to move KC, all is good! lol Can't wait to see your 'new' digs.
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ArrowheadRage58


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 7795
Location: Hate for the Donkeys is at a mile high
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KC_Guy wrote:
mayanfootball wrote:
Well now we get around to input from the "instigator" of this recent flurry of posts. Yes, the deliberate move to highlight this thread after it sat dormant, by KC_Guy. I was wondering if you'd have any class to tell us all why you did so.


That's fairly easy to answer: I thought (and still do) that this issue may need a new discussion after regular season's end. And the discussion it stirred up proved me right I think.

As for you "calling off the dogs" on Reid: Hindsight is 20/20. You wanted to clear house, based on your assessment at that time (which you obviously still consider absolute correct). I still consider it outrageously ridiculous, and the season's outcome is all proof I need for that assessment.

As for your assessment of Sutton and the defence: You claim Dorsey provides Sutton with personnel that overcomes Sutton's deficiencies and delivers. One may see it exactly the other way around as well: Sutton develops a fairly good defence out of whatever Dorsey picks off the scrap heap that is the FA market late in the season.


His assessment of Sutton...and i'm not the only other one, isn't far off. I stated my reasons for that previously in this thread. Basically, KC can win it all with him, but you can't always be confident in him and an upgrade could be had.

There is no reason this defense couldn't be a little more suffocating at times to go along with the turnovers. Too often, free passes are handed out on 3rd downs (bottom of the league this year) and 2 minute situations (Atl and Ten games come to mind). Some mention the Indy game in 2013, I mention the 3rd down last year vs NE with Dee Ford on Edelman.

As for Dorseys scrap heap...what once was scrap, has actually become bonafide NFL players: Howard, Parker, Sorenson, now Mitchell...these guys can all play...maybe they fit in our system well and all that and Sutton puts them in the right spot, but those guys are legit at what they do and combined with all the known star power suggest this defense could be even more stifling than it already is at times.
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Your Denver hatred is borderline pathological. I don't think my girlfriend cheating on me would cause me as much hate as you have for Denver.
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samsel23


Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 4861
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
KC_Guy wrote:
mayanfootball wrote:
Well now we get around to input from the "instigator" of this recent flurry of posts. Yes, the deliberate move to highlight this thread after it sat dormant, by KC_Guy. I was wondering if you'd have any class to tell us all why you did so.


That's fairly easy to answer: I thought (and still do) that this issue may need a new discussion after regular season's end. And the discussion it stirred up proved me right I think.

As for you "calling off the dogs" on Reid: Hindsight is 20/20. You wanted to clear house, based on your assessment at that time (which you obviously still consider absolute correct). I still consider it outrageously ridiculous, and the season's outcome is all proof I need for that assessment.

As for your assessment of Sutton and the defence: You claim Dorsey provides Sutton with personnel that overcomes Sutton's deficiencies and delivers. One may see it exactly the other way around as well: Sutton develops a fairly good defence out of whatever Dorsey picks off the scrap heap that is the FA market late in the season.


His assessment of Sutton...and i'm not the only other one, isn't far off. I stated my reasons for that previously in this thread. Basically, KC can win it all with him, but you can't always be confident in him and an upgrade could be had.

There is no reason this defense couldn't be a little more suffocating at times to go along with the turnovers. Too often, free passes are handed out on 3rd downs (bottom of the league this year) and 2 minute situations (Atl and Ten games come to mind). Some mention the Indy game in 2013, I mention the 3rd down last year vs NE with Dee Ford on Edelman.

As for Dorseys scrap heap...what once was scrap, has actually become bonafide NFL players: Howard, Parker, Sorenson, now Mitchell...these guys can all play...maybe they fit in our system well and all that and Sutton puts them in the right spot, but those guys are legit at what they do and combined with all the known star power suggest this defense could be even more stifling than it already is at times.


An upgrade could almost always be had, but it could also be ALOT worse.

Yeah I'll even admit I think we get passive too often on Defense, or leave our OLB's in containment too much (whether in the run or pass), but he also does that for a reason. Outside of Gaines getting torched we are VERY good about not allowing big plays. It's built into his scheme, you start getting more aggressive and we'll start giving up more quick, long touchdowns.

Honestly if we had better ILB play this would probably be the best defense we've had in awhile. Even DJ when he was healthy wasn't what he's been in the past.
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ArrowheadRage58


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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Location: Hate for the Donkeys is at a mile high
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Define big plays, cuz there are plenty made against us 20 yards or more.

Of course it could be worse, but if KC got rid of Sutton, there would be several great defensive minds ready to jump at the opportunity to coach this group.
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BroncosFan2010 wrote:

Your Denver hatred is borderline pathological. I don't think my girlfriend cheating on me would cause me as much hate as you have for Denver.
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KC_Guy


Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 8892
Location: Brussels, Belgium
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
Define big plays, cuz there are plenty made against us 20 yards or more.

Of course it could be worse, but if KC got rid of Sutton, there would be several great defensive minds ready to jump at the opportunity to coach this group.


Such as?
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ArrowheadRage58


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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Location: Hate for the Donkeys is at a mile high
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know, but look at the talent here. Sutton just has not proven to be a plus coach in his tenure here, imo. In this case, I don't have an answer for who off the top of my head.
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BroncosFan2010 wrote:

Your Denver hatred is borderline pathological. I don't think my girlfriend cheating on me would cause me as much hate as you have for Denver.
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KC_Guy


Joined: 07 Jan 2008
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Location: Brussels, Belgium
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
I don't know, but look at the talent here. Sutton just has not proven to be a plus coach in his tenure here, imo. In this case, I don't have an answer for who off the top of my head.


Oh ...
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Jakuvious


Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 15125
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Sutton is woefully underappreciated, personally. I think his scheme is brilliant. It will never be popular because it's very selectively aggressive and willingly allows a certain amount of yardage, but I think it's excellently designed for our roster and the way offenses run right now.

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
I don't know, but look at the talent here. Sutton just has not proven to be a plus coach in his tenure here, imo. In this case, I don't have an answer for who off the top of my head.


You realize you can't separate that from Sutton, right? The defense had talent in 2012. Didn't mean a damn thing. And it isn't like guys like Sorensen, Parker, Nacho, Mitchell, etc., who are all playing at a high level, were highly sought after top picks. Poe, Ford, and Peters were guys who needed to be well-coached due to how they played or acted in college.

Talent is nothing without good coaching. You can't talk about how good our players are and disregard the coaches who got them there and put them in the position to succeed.
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KC_Guy


Joined: 07 Jan 2008
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Location: Brussels, Belgium
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
I think Sutton is woefully underappreciated, personally. I think his scheme is brilliant. It will never be popular because it's very selectively aggressive and willingly allows a certain amount of yardage, but I think it's excellently designed for our roster and the way offenses run right now.

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
I don't know, but look at the talent here. Sutton just has not proven to be a plus coach in his tenure here, imo. In this case, I don't have an answer for who off the top of my head.


You realize you can't separate that from Sutton, right? The defense had talent in 2012. Didn't mean a damn thing. And it isn't like guys like Sorensen, Parker, Nacho, Mitchell, etc., who are all playing at a high level, were highly sought after top picks. Poe, Ford, and Peters were guys who needed to be well-coached due to how they played or acted in college.

Talent is nothing without good coaching. You can't talk about how good our players are and disregard the coaches who got them there and put them in the position to succeed.


Applause Didn't put it that eloquently, but I think I was close: http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=21224717#21224717
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jimmydee1


Joined: 20 Sep 2013
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Location: Missouri
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ditto....... how's that for succinct and to the point? Pass the Makers please..
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ArrowheadRage58


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 7795
Location: Hate for the Donkeys is at a mile high
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
I think Sutton is woefully underappreciated, personally. I think his scheme is brilliant. It will never be popular because it's very selectively aggressive and willingly allows a certain amount of yardage, but I think it's excellently designed for our roster and the way offenses run right now.

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
I don't know, but look at the talent here. Sutton just has not proven to be a plus coach in his tenure here, imo. In this case, I don't have an answer for who off the top of my head.


You realize you can't separate that from Sutton, right? The defense had talent in 2012. Didn't mean a damn thing. And it isn't like guys like Sorensen, Parker, Nacho, Mitchell, etc., who are all playing at a high level, were highly sought after top picks. Poe, Ford, and Peters were guys who needed to be well-coached due to how they played or acted in college.

Talent is nothing without good coaching. You can't talk about how good our players are and disregard the coaches who got them there and put them in the position to succeed.


I can separate it. They were very, very good in 2011 under Crennel despite having zero offense and being on the field all the time. He simply and obviously couldn't handle HC/DC at the same time in 2012. Now they have many of those same pieces from 2011 along with some other players and MUCH more depth. And the defense is great in it's own way, but it has the talent to be more dominating or suffocating.

So Sutton is a decent DC...he is not awful, nor is he very good for the most part. I would like the team to find better, but it might not kill us (I mean I hope not, but that brings me back to Ford on Edelman on 3rd down..inexcusable).

I agree with you to a point. I am willing to concede yardage...I have never cared that KC hasn't often been in the top 5-10 in total D the last 4 years, but this year they were plain awful for much of the year (yardage wise) and 3rd downs (near bottom of league) was the main culprit in the downfall...and that IS important. And if you can't get teams off the field better with this personnel (injuries or not, it's been good enough) that's a problem.

As for working with players to improve and succeed, overall the defensive coaches are incredible, but I'm not sure how much Sutton has to do with that. They have position coaches. He coordinates the defense.

Either way KC is in a great spot and this is merely bonus discussion, because there isn't anything overly negative to talk about as the team is in a great position with no major issues at the moment.
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BroncosFan2010 wrote:

Your Denver hatred is borderline pathological. I don't think my girlfriend cheating on me would cause me as much hate as you have for Denver.
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samsel23


Joined: 30 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big plays would have been more accurately described as quick scores. We don't give up a ton of 1-5 play drives that end up as touchdowns. If you score against us it was either;

1) the offense turned it over
2) you took some time moving the ball down the field


3(rarely if ever) Special Teams failed us.


And i'm okay with that, what I don't want is teams breaking quick TD's and forcing our offense to play at a fast pace.


I do agree our run defense is awful though, but I would put that mainly on the play of our ILB's, which can't really be faulted anywhere. I'm not sure many teams would be good against the run if they sustained the amount of injuries we have up front.
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mayanfootball


Joined: 13 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Big plays would have been more accurately described as quick scores. We don't give up a ton of 1-5 play drives that end up as touchdowns.
Unless we play Pittsburgh?
They destroyed us with quick scores early and led 21-0 before Chiefs fans could blink (3TD's in 6 plalys). It was the disaster of 2016. Bob Sutton didn't know what hit him before the game was out of reach. The slaughter was 29-0 before halftime and 36-0 after. We'll probably play Pittsburgh again. I hope he's got a real plan this time.
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samsel23


Joined: 30 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mayanfootball wrote:
Quote:
Big plays would have been more accurately described as quick scores. We don't give up a ton of 1-5 play drives that end up as touchdowns.
Unless we play Pittsburgh?
They destroyed us with quick scores early and led 21-0 before Chiefs fans could blink (3TD's in 6 plalys). It was the disaster of 2016. Bob Sutton didn't know what hit him before the game was out of reach. The slaughter was 29-0 before halftime and 36-0 after. We'll probably play Pittsburgh again. I hope he's got a real plan this time.


Yup that was our worst game. They game was out of reach because of turnovers on our side of the field. Pretty hard to follow a gameplan that is completely wrecked by early turnovers, or even have time to adjust on the fly.
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onejayhawk


Joined: 14 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
I don't know, but look at the talent here. Sutton just has not proven to be a plus coach in his tenure here, imo. In this case, I don't have an answer for who off the top of my head.

Looking at the talent is one reason why he's a plus coach. High draft picks with character concerns that are not character issues. Low draft and WW nobodies that produce and have trade value. Player handling and development is a big reason why he's a plus coach.

mayanfootball wrote:
Unless we play Pittsburgh?
They destroyed us with quick scores early and led 21-0 before Chiefs fans could blink (3TD's in 6 plalys). It was the disaster of 2016. Bob Sutton didn't know what hit him before the game was out of reach. The slaughter was 29-0 before halftime and 36-0 after. We'll probably play Pittsburgh again. I hope he's got a real plan this time.

This team would love to play Pittburgh again. Just sayin'.

J
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