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billzz


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MSURacerDT55 wrote:
Guys, I'm not buying it. What has Peppers done that is dominant outside of special teams? Suh was absolutely dominant, Woodson was dominant, Orlando Pace was dominant,Lavarr Arrington was dominant, Dwight Freeney was dominant, hell, Honey badger was a turnover machine from his actual defensive position. You can take Peppers off that defense and they won't miss a beat, they are that good and you know it.

Tell me outside of special teams, what he does that's dominant? Is he really getting considered for versatility? seriously? or given kudos for being in position? That's not Heisman worthy guys...

I'm sorry guys, I try to be unbiased despite my fandom but I just don't buy it, bury me if you want.


i would argue that peppers has been equal to, or greater than woodson. the rest of the comparisons are silly, i would be willing to bet everyone has him tabbed as a DB/S, ST player, opposed to a LB, he does see snaps there, but that is because they can get away with it, and its also a schematic advantage.

comparing him to DB's he's all there. i believe you are letting your MSU bias to cause you some unwarranted hatred.
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

billzz wrote:
MSURacerDT55 wrote:
Guys, I'm not buying it. What has Peppers done that is dominant outside of special teams? Suh was absolutely dominant, Woodson was dominant, Orlando Pace was dominant,Lavarr Arrington was dominant, Dwight Freeney was dominant, hell, Honey badger was a turnover machine from his actual defensive position. You can take Peppers off that defense and they won't miss a beat, they are that good and you know it.

Tell me outside of special teams, what he does that's dominant? Is he really getting considered for versatility? seriously? or given kudos for being in position? That's not Heisman worthy guys...

I'm sorry guys, I try to be unbiased despite my fandom but I just don't buy it, bury me if you want.


i would argue that peppers has been equal to, or greater than woodson. the rest of the comparisons are silly, i would be willing to bet everyone has him tabbed as a DB/S, ST player, opposed to a LB, he does see snaps there, but that is because they can get away with it, and its also a schematic advantage.

comparing him to DB's he's all there. i believe you are letting your MSU bias to cause you some unwarranted hatred.
he's an Ohio State fan, not an MSU fan
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billzz


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
billzz wrote:
MSURacerDT55 wrote:
Guys, I'm not buying it. What has Peppers done that is dominant outside of special teams? Suh was absolutely dominant, Woodson was dominant, Orlando Pace was dominant,Lavarr Arrington was dominant, Dwight Freeney was dominant, hell, Honey badger was a turnover machine from his actual defensive position. You can take Peppers off that defense and they won't miss a beat, they are that good and you know it.

Tell me outside of special teams, what he does that's dominant? Is he really getting considered for versatility? seriously? or given kudos for being in position? That's not Heisman worthy guys...

I'm sorry guys, I try to be unbiased despite my fandom but I just don't buy it, bury me if you want.


i would argue that peppers has been equal to, or greater than woodson. the rest of the comparisons are silly, i would be willing to bet everyone has him tabbed as a DB/S, ST player, opposed to a LB, he does see snaps there, but that is because they can get away with it, and its also a schematic advantage.

comparing him to DB's he's all there. i believe you are letting your MSU bias to cause you some unwarranted hatred.
he's an Ohio State fan, not an MSU fan


well his OSU bias is causing unwarranted hatred.
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JammerHammer21


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before the season, Peppers only played so many positions because Michigan had nobody else to play them and he wouldn't do it on Bama. Now, you can take him off the defense and there'd apparently be no dropoff because everyone else is so good. It's BS. Taking Peppers off means putting in a LB nowhere near as athletic and nowhere near as capable of doing the things he can do. Why does every coach say he's one of the best players in the country? Why does every scout drool over his potential? It isn't because he's overrated or non-essential to Michigan's defensive success.

I have little doubt the tune would be different if Peppers played for a certain team instead of Michigan.
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MSURacerDT55


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

billzz wrote:
MSURacerDT55 wrote:
Guys, I'm not buying it. What has Peppers done that is dominant outside of special teams? Suh was absolutely dominant, Woodson was dominant, Orlando Pace was dominant,Lavarr Arrington was dominant, Dwight Freeney was dominant, hell, Honey badger was a turnover machine from his actual defensive position. You can take Peppers off that defense and they won't miss a beat, they are that good and you know it.

Tell me outside of special teams, what he does that's dominant? Is he really getting considered for versatility? seriously? or given kudos for being in position? That's not Heisman worthy guys...

I'm sorry guys, I try to be unbiased despite my fandom but I just don't buy it, bury me if you want.


i would argue that peppers has been equal to, or greater than woodson. the rest of the comparisons are silly, i would be willing to bet everyone has him tabbed as a DB/S, ST player, opposed to a LB, he does see snaps there, but that is because they can get away with it, and its also a schematic advantage.

comparing him to DB's he's all there
. i believe you are letting your MSU bias to cause you some unwarranted hatred.


Except coverage skills, im done talking about him. I cannot discuss him without guys jammies getting all in a bunch. I notice nobody told me how he was dominant either, its cool. I guarantee scouts who don't drink the Kool Aid will bring these concerns up. I would love to hear an assessment of a person who isn't associated with either OSU, MSU, or UM or isn't all googly eyed about him.

Im done
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MSURacerDT55


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JammerHammer21 wrote:
Before the season, Peppers only played so many positions because Michigan had nobody else to play them and he wouldn't do it on Bama. Now, you can take him off the defense and there'd apparently be no dropoff because everyone else is so good. It's BS. Taking Peppers off means putting in a LB nowhere near as athletic and nowhere near as capable of doing the things he can do. Why does every coach say he's one of the best players in the country? Why does every scout drool over his potential? It isn't because he's overrated or non-essential to Michigan's defensive success.


I have little doubt the tune would be different if Peppers played for a certain team instead of Michigan
.


I hope you aren't insinuating tOSU because I would be just as critical as I have been with my own team, coaches. I have been super critical of my team here as well as other forums bro. Some people confuse this with hate, I try to tell it how I see. Plus those who I have talked about from OSU have been warranted and thats only been Hooker.

Hell, I've been very complementary of Speight, Butt, and Stribling. Not you, but take the emotion and fandom out of it.
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1King


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MSURacerDT55 wrote:
billzz wrote:
MSURacerDT55 wrote:
Guys, I'm not buying it. What has Peppers done that is dominant outside of special teams? Suh was absolutely dominant, Woodson was dominant, Orlando Pace was dominant,Lavarr Arrington was dominant, Dwight Freeney was dominant, hell, Honey badger was a turnover machine from his actual defensive position. You can take Peppers off that defense and they won't miss a beat, they are that good and you know it.

Tell me outside of special teams, what he does that's dominant? Is he really getting considered for versatility? seriously? or given kudos for being in position? That's not Heisman worthy guys...

I'm sorry guys, I try to be unbiased despite my fandom but I just don't buy it, bury me if you want.


i would argue that peppers has been equal to, or greater than woodson. the rest of the comparisons are silly, i would be willing to bet everyone has him tabbed as a DB/S, ST player, opposed to a LB, he does see snaps there, but that is because they can get away with it, and its also a schematic advantage.

comparing him to DB's he's all there
. i believe you are letting your MSU bias to cause you some unwarranted hatred.


Except coverage skills, im done talking about him. I cannot discuss him without guys jammies getting all in a bunch. I notice nobody told me how he was dominant either, its cool. I guarantee scouts who don't drink the Kool Aid will bring these concerns up. I would love to hear an assessment of a person who isn't associated with either OSU, MSU, or UM or isn't all googly eyed about him.

Im done


You haven't said how he isn't. Also not sure why you brought up the Heisman, it isn't relevant here.

I told you when watching the games, you can see his impact even when he doesn't touch the ball or when things don't go to his side of the field. Part of being dominant is impacting the game when you dont make the play yourself. And as far as making plays yourself (i.e. counting stats and other non-stat related plays) I'll use your Honey Badger example to compare counting stats and you juts need to listen to any coach of any Michigan opponent and have them talk about how big of a concern Peppers is.

You brought up Honey Badger as an example of being a dominant player from his defensive position.

Honey Badgers defensive stats over 2 seasons at LSU:

26 games (13 games per year)
133 total tackles (66.5 tackles per year)
16 TFL (8 TFL per year)
6 sacks (3 sacks per year)
4 INT (2 int per year)
16 PD (8 PD per year)
8 FR (4 FR per year)
11 FF (5.5 FF per year)
4 QBH (2 per year)

Jabrill Peppers season thus far:

9 games
53 total tackles (on pace to surpass Honey Badgers average)
13.5 TFL (already outpacing Honey Badgers average)
3.5 Sacks (already outpacing Honey Badgers average)
0 INT (behind Honey Badgers pace)
0 PD (behind HB pace) (Though this # should be indicative of how Peppers is being used and not his ability as he had 10 PD last season)
0 FR (behind HB pace) [Apparently recovering and returning the 2 point conversion against MSU didn't count as a FR]
1 FF (behind HB pace)
7 QBH (already outpacing HB pace)

That stats match up with how both guys were used. Both guys were deployed in playmaking hybrid positions, the difference being Honey Badger's role was more in line with coverage and playing the pass and Peppers is more in line with stopping the run and blitzing the QB, thus the higher #'s in pass defense related stats for HB and run defense/blitz related stats for Peppers.

So if you personally value Honey Badger's role due to coverage related assignments/production over Peppers role in run/blitz related assignments/production, I can understand that.


As for your other examples, you used an OT, a DE, a LB and a CB. OT and DE are obvious non-comparisons. Peppers isn't playing CB for Michigan like Woodson did and he isn't projected to play CB in the NFL like Woodson did. Arrington (IIRC) was used as more of an edge rusher at PSU, or at minimum, a pure LB - which also isn't how Peppers is used.

Best I could find on Arrington's stats for his junior season:

72 total tackles (6 per game)
20 TFL (1.66 per game)
9 Sacks (0.75 per game)
1 INT
1 FF
2 FR (1 TD)
2 Blocked Kicks
Couldn't find QBH

Obviously impressive and you call dominant (I don't disagree). Not sure, but I believe that was in 12 games.

Peppers, despite a different role and being 3~ inches and 50~ pounds lighter than Arrington, through 9 games

53 total tackles (5.88 per game thus far)
13.5 TFL (1.5 per game thus far)
3.5 Sacks (0.38 per game thus far)
0 INT
1 FF
0 FR (though he returned the 2 point conversion vs. MSU for a score)
0 Blocked kicks (though I would argue this is due to usage, not ability)
7 QBH

Not unreasonable to suggest that Peppers could put up similar production as Arrington did in most of those categories despite being smaller, having a different role and playing on offense and special teams. Obviously production is only part of it. I only remember small bits and pieces of Lavar at PSU (Lavar leap for example), but I can pin point plenty of big time Peppers defensive plays whether it is making a sack, getting huge pressure on the QB, making a key run stop for tfl, blowing up screen passes, and while certainly with less frequency and consistency there are still some examples vs. the pass in intermediate/longer coverage (though most of those were in previous years).

Peppers has 2 concerns, his deep coverage and handling huge lineman getting free releases at him. The position he plays now and the position he projects at both will mitigate those issues at least somewhat and he has at least shown flashes of ability to suggest he isn't a lost cause and has a reasonable shot at improving those areas especially given the positive reports about his work ethic, competitiveness and football IQ. Further, they way the league is moving, he won't have to consistently deal with both of those things at once and that makes it much easier to move him around and minimize his weaknesses.

And you are kidding yourself if you think Michigan could take Peppers off the defense and not "miss a beat." That's ridiculous, especially since I believe it was you (though could have been a different OSU fan) that said in the past that Michigan's defense wasn't that great, especially from an individualistic perspective. Now it is so awesome we could lose Peppers and be the same? Nah.
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JammerHammer21


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20885154#20885154

Apparently, Michigan doesn't have the playmakers that other schools do, which is the only reason Peppers does what he does for Michigan... but you could now remove him and it'd make no difference? Okay. And he's a freak athletically, I don't even know how that's a debate. Laughing
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Lombardi - Isn't that the guy the trophy is named after? If so, top 3 coach of all time.

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MSURacerDT55


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JammerHammer21 wrote:
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20885154#20885154

Apparently, Michigan doesn't have the playmakers that other schools do, which is the only reason Peppers does what he does for Michigan... but you could now remove him and it'd make no difference? Okay. And he's a freak athletically, I don't even know how that's a debate. Laughing


Uhh.... That kinda is my point... Laughing, thanks
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1King


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MSURacerDT55 wrote:
JammerHammer21 wrote:
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20885154#20885154

Apparently, Michigan doesn't have the playmakers that other schools do, which is the only reason Peppers does what he does for Michigan... but you could now remove him and it'd make no difference? Okay. And he's a freak athletically, I don't even know how that's a debate. Laughing


Uhh.... That kinda is my point... Laughing, thanks


What? That Michigan doesn't have any playmakers or good players so they all go to him?

Or that you could remove him from our defense and we wouldn't miss a beat?

Either way, you're wrong.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peppers would certainly look good in Titans blue playing under LeBeau. He's a top 10 talent easily.
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MSURacerDT55


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1King wrote:
MSURacerDT55 wrote:
JammerHammer21 wrote:
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20885154#20885154

Apparently, Michigan doesn't have the playmakers that other schools do, which is the only reason Peppers does what he does for Michigan... but you could now remove him and it'd make no difference? Okay. And he's a freak athletically, I don't even know how that's a debate. Laughing


Uhh.... That kinda is my point... Laughing, thanks


What? That Michigan doesn't have any playmakers or good players so they all go to him?

Or that you could remove him from our defense and we wouldn't miss a beat?

Either way, you're wrong.



Question... Where was Peppers last year vs tOSU? ( absolutely can't wait to hear the excuses)
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JammerHammer21


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MSURacerDT55 wrote:
1King wrote:
MSURacerDT55 wrote:
JammerHammer21 wrote:
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20885154#20885154

Apparently, Michigan doesn't have the playmakers that other schools do, which is the only reason Peppers does what he does for Michigan... but you could now remove him and it'd make no difference? Okay. And he's a freak athletically, I don't even know how that's a debate. Laughing


Uhh.... That kinda is my point... Laughing, thanks


What? That Michigan doesn't have any playmakers or good players so they all go to him?

Or that you could remove him from our defense and we wouldn't miss a beat?

Either way, you're wrong.



Question... Where was Peppers last year vs tOSU? ( absolutely can't wait to hear the excuses)


Ah yes, last year has a lot to do with this year and he had a disappointing game, so clearly he sucks. Good lord. As if the agenda weren't clear enough.
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Bohlmann20 (On The 95 Cleveland Browns Staff) wrote:
Lombardi - Isn't that the guy the trophy is named after? If so, top 3 coach of all time.

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MSURacerDT55


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JammerHammer21 wrote:
MSURacerDT55 wrote:
1King wrote:
MSURacerDT55 wrote:
JammerHammer21 wrote:
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20885154#20885154

Apparently, Michigan doesn't have the playmakers that other schools do, which is the only reason Peppers does what he does for Michigan... but you could now remove him and it'd make no difference? Okay. And he's a freak athletically, I don't even know how that's a debate. Laughing


Uhh.... That kinda is my point... Laughing, thanks


What? That Michigan doesn't have any playmakers or good players so they all go to him?

Or that you could remove him from our defense and we wouldn't miss a beat?

Either way, you're wrong.



Question... Where was Peppers last year vs tOSU? ( absolutely can't wait to hear the excuses)


Ah yes, last year has a lot to do with this year and he had a disappointing game, so clearly he sucks. Good lord. As if the agenda weren't clear enough.


Accountability?, impressive...

Also im not sure not buying into the hype qualifies as having an agenda....
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any word on Courtland Sutton, Marshon Lattimore, or Marlon Humphrey?
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