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iPwn


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.Buzz wrote:
iPwn wrote:
.Buzz wrote:
Not sure if you've seen much of him, but it won't be Peppers if we go safety imo. It'll be Jamal Adams.
Nah it'll be Peppers or Fournette. We love taking a guy high at position where there's an obviously much more talented player at the same position available.


I mean, Fowler was viewed as a top 5 pick by most everyone. Bortles was in strong consideration at #1 for Houston til the last second. Jabrill Peppers would be a pick like Tyson Alualu from the Gene Smith era. I'm really not worried about Dave doing something like that. He usually goes BAP with all of his firsts besides Bortles (QB's are different of course).
It'd be nothing like Alualu. Alualu is actually a good player unlike half+ of Dave's first round picks. And Peppers is viewed as a top 5 pick by a lot of people.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2684219-nfl-draft-2017-updated-mock-draft-before-regular-season-finales

http://www.csnmidatlantic.com/baltimore-ravens/2017-nfl-mock-draft-10-cornering-market-0

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/sd-sp-nfl-mock-draft-2017-two-rounds-20161229-story,amp.html?client=safari

http://www.drafttek.com/m/2017-NFL-Mock-Draft-Round1.asp

He's the exact type of all hype, no substance player that Dave has so willingly drafted.
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.Buzz


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
.Buzz wrote:
iPwn wrote:
.Buzz wrote:
Not sure if you've seen much of him, but it won't be Peppers if we go safety imo. It'll be Jamal Adams.
Nah it'll be Peppers or Fournette. We love taking a guy high at position where there's an obviously much more talented player at the same position available.


I mean, Fowler was viewed as a top 5 pick by most everyone. Bortles was in strong consideration at #1 for Houston til the last second. Jabrill Peppers would be a pick like Tyson Alualu from the Gene Smith era. I'm really not worried about Dave doing something like that. He usually goes BAP with all of his firsts besides Bortles (QB's are different of course).
It'd be nothing like Alualu. Alualu is actually a good player unlike half+ of Dave's first round picks. And Peppers is viewed as a top 5 pick by a lot of people.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2684219-nfl-draft-2017-updated-mock-draft-before-regular-season-finales

http://www.csnmidatlantic.com/baltimore-ravens/2017-nfl-mock-draft-10-cornering-market-0

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/sd-sp-nfl-mock-draft-2017-two-rounds-20161229-story,amp.html?client=safari

http://www.drafttek.com/m/2017-NFL-Mock-Draft-Round1.asp

He's the exact type of all hype, no substance player that Dave has so willingly drafted.


Wow, surprised to see him still mocked that high. Mocks I've looked at/people I've read haven't put him near that high in quite a while.

Alualu has been very good this year. But he's still mainly best as a rotation guy that an actual starter. But yeah, he's been damn good. Still no reason he should have been taken in the top end of the first round like he was.

For the bolded, is this all about Fowler? I feel like it is.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.Buzz wrote:
Alualu has been very good this year. But he's still mainly best as a rotation guy that an actual starter. But yeah, he's been damn good. Still no reason he should have been taken in the top end of the first round like he was.
I legitimately believe pre-Oklahoma drill/refusing to let surgery Alualu legitimately was going to be an elite UT. He was up there with Donald as one of the most freakishly disruptive DTs I've ever seen. I still believe, even after years to reflect on this and a complete disdain for everything else Gene Smith did, had he not torn up his knee in that drill, Alualu would have gone down as unquestionably the best defensive player in franchise history thus far. He had the measurables and explosion of a freaky DE in the body of a DT.

Quote:
For the bolded, is this all about Fowler? I feel like it is.
It's about practically every player he's taken in the top 40. Joeckel wasn't even the best LT available at 2, let alone a top 5 option for me there. Cyp was all hype and is garbage. Bortles wasn't a top 3 pick, regardless of what the team that gave Brock Osweiler 72 million thought. He wasn't even the top QB in that class. Lee had serious injury concerns that have hampered his entire career and wasn't even the best WR prospect that we picked in the second round. Fowler was so obviously not worth #3 overall to anyone who understands that the 40 isn't what you look at for a DE. Yeldon is garbo. Ramsey is incredible and the one that bucks this trend. I like Jack, but boy if his career isn't on the exact same path as all of those others.

You do a redraft of all those drafts today and all three top 3 picks don't even go in the first round. Not a single guy they took at the top of the second round goes in the top 3 rounds except MAYBE Lee.

I think Blake could turn things around. Lee could develop. Jack could be good. But four years into your tenure as a GM, you shouldn't have one hit and three maybes at the top of the first two rounds. Let's call a spade a spade here, Dave has constantly drafted the second or third best prospect at the position he targets, and does so in getting caught up in the hype of lack of substance for players.
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mijags


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

New years first-pick:



Round 1 Pick 10 (CLE): Leonard Fournette, RB, LSU (A+)
Round 2 Pick 1 (CLE): Ethan Pocic, C/OG, LSU (B+)
Round 2 Pick 4: Chris Wormley, DT, Michigan (A-)
Round 2 Pick 16 (CLE): Brad Kaaya, QB, Miami (Fla.) (B)
Round 3 Pick 4: Harold Landry, DE, Boston College (A)
Round 4 Pick 4: Dion Dawkins, OT, Temple (A-)
Round 5 Pick 4: Bryan Cox, DE, Florida (A+)
Round 6 Pick 4: Justin Jackson, RB, Northwestern (B+)
Round 7 Pick 4: Taywan Taylor, WR, Western Kentucky (A+)
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Jlash


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
.Buzz wrote:
Alualu has been very good this year. But he's still mainly best as a rotation guy that an actual starter. But yeah, he's been damn good. Still no reason he should have been taken in the top end of the first round like he was.
I legitimately believe pre-Oklahoma drill/refusing to let surgery Alualu legitimately was going to be an elite UT. He was up there with Donald as one of the most freakishly disruptive DTs I've ever seen. I still believe, even after years to reflect on this and a complete disdain for everything else Gene Smith did, had he not torn up his knee in that drill, Alualu would have gone down as unquestionably the best defensive player in franchise history thus far. He had the measurables and explosion of a freaky DE in the body of a DT.

Quote:
For the bolded, is this all about Fowler? I feel like it is.
It's about practically every player he's taken in the top 40. Joeckel wasn't even the best LT available at 2, let alone a top 5 option for me there. Cyp was all hype and is garbage. Bortles wasn't a top 3 pick, regardless of what the team that gave Brock Osweiler 72 million thought. He wasn't even the top QB in that class. Lee had serious injury concerns that have hampered his entire career and wasn't even the best WR prospect that we picked in the second round. Fowler was so obviously not worth #3 overall to anyone who understands that the 40 isn't what you look at for a DE. Yeldon is garbo. Ramsey is incredible and the one that bucks this trend. I like Jack, but boy if his career isn't on the exact same path as all of those others.

You do a redraft of all those drafts today and all three top 3 picks don't even go in the first round. Not a single guy they took at the top of the second round goes in the top 3 rounds except MAYBE Lee.

I think Blake could turn things around. Lee could develop. Jack could be good. But four years into your tenure as a GM, you shouldn't have one hit and three maybes at the top of the first two rounds. Let's call a spade a spade here, Dave has constantly drafted the second or third best prospect at the position he targets, and does so in getting caught up in the hype of lack of substance for players.


Who was there at 2? Fluker and Pugh were RT's who ended up being kicked inside to guard. Unless you knew that Terron Armstead or David Bahktiari taken 2-3 rounds later would work out like they did.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jlash wrote:
Who was there at 2? Fluker and Pugh were RT's who ended up being kicked inside to guard. Unless you knew that Terron Armstead or David Bahktiari taken 2-3 rounds later would work out like they did.
Lane Johnson went two picks after Joeckel.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Jlash wrote:
Who was there at 2? Fluker and Pugh were RT's who ended up being kicked inside to guard. Unless you knew that Terron Armstead or David Bahktiari taken 2-3 rounds later would work out like they did.
Lane Johnson went two picks after Joeckel.


Ahh forgot about the RT on my own team. Again though, has never been tested on the left side so who knows.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jlash wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Jlash wrote:
Who was there at 2? Fluker and Pugh were RT's who ended up being kicked inside to guard. Unless you knew that Terron Armstead or David Bahktiari taken 2-3 rounds later would work out like they did.
Lane Johnson went two picks after Joeckel.


Ahh forgot about the RT on my own team. Again though, has never been tested on the left side so who knows.
Joeckel was trash at RT too. And only mediocre at LG.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Jlash wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Jlash wrote:
Who was there at 2? Fluker and Pugh were RT's who ended up being kicked inside to guard. Unless you knew that Terron Armstead or David Bahktiari taken 2-3 rounds later would work out like they did.
Lane Johnson went two picks after Joeckel.


Ahh forgot about the RT on my own team. Again though, has never been tested on the left side so who knows.
Joeckel was trash at RT too. And only mediocre at LG.


Yea that wasn't a great year for tackles in the early rounds.
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.Buzz


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
.Buzz wrote:
Alualu has been very good this year. But he's still mainly best as a rotation guy that an actual starter. But yeah, he's been damn good. Still no reason he should have been taken in the top end of the first round like he was.
I legitimately believe pre-Oklahoma drill/refusing to let surgery Alualu legitimately was going to be an elite UT. He was up there with Donald as one of the most freakishly disruptive DTs I've ever seen. I still believe, even after years to reflect on this and a complete disdain for everything else Gene Smith did, had he not torn up his knee in that drill, Alualu would have gone down as unquestionably the best defensive player in franchise history thus far. He had the measurables and explosion of a freaky DE in the body of a DT.

Quote:
For the bolded, is this all about Fowler? I feel like it is.
It's about practically every player he's taken in the top 40. Joeckel wasn't even the best LT available at 2, let alone a top 5 option for me there. Cyp was all hype and is garbage. Bortles wasn't a top 3 pick, regardless of what the team that gave Brock Osweiler 72 million thought. He wasn't even the top QB in that class. Lee had serious injury concerns that have hampered his entire career and wasn't even the best WR prospect that we picked in the second round. Fowler was so obviously not worth #3 overall to anyone who understands that the 40 isn't what you look at for a DE. Yeldon is garbo. Ramsey is incredible and the one that bucks this trend. I like Jack, but boy if his career isn't on the exact same path as all of those others.

You do a redraft of all those drafts today and all three top 3 picks don't even go in the first round. Not a single guy they took at the top of the second round goes in the top 3 rounds except MAYBE Lee.

I think Blake could turn things around. Lee could develop. Jack could be good. But four years into your tenure as a GM, you shouldn't have one hit and three maybes at the top of the first two rounds. Let's call a spade a spade here, Dave has constantly drafted the second or third best prospect at the position he targets, and does so in getting caught up in the hype of lack of substance for players.


I dont think we'll ever to see eye to eye on Fowler as a prospect coming out. There was multiple reports showing a lot of teams had Fowler as the top guy defensively in that draft. Hell, ATL who took Beasley had Fowler targeted and they wanted to trade up for him. Washingtons GM had him as their best overall player and didnt know what to do once he went off the board he said post draft.

Bortles I just cant give up on until we get a decent coaching staff. I just cant. He showed way too much last year (not top 10 level, but top 15-18 for sure imo, which as a raw prospect that got hit as much as him with Fisch/Olsen at OC is damn impressive). Then he goes and did what he did last week, which imo may have been his best overall game of his career after we just happened to fire a guy thst didnt seem to hold anyone accountable and never preached winning. I want competition and wouldnt be opposed to taking a QB as high as rd 2 in case, but I cant move on from Bortles after what this organization has done as far as the coaching staff goes. Tannehill took a solid step forward this year after getting a solid coach in there.

Idk man, I just remember Joeckel and Fisher being widely viewed as the top 2 guys in that draft. I was more into the idea of Ansah or too a lesser extent Dion Jordan, but I dont remember anyone saying Luke didnt deserve to be taken top 3.

Yeldon ill never get behind. Agree 100%.

This past draft he went Ramsey, Jack who Gus couldnt fit in because of his whole bs scheme that he coulsnt change even a little to fit him in, followed by Ngakoue and Day who were damn good college players with very good pass rush ability.

Dave has had his blunders, no doubt about it. Results need to start happening or hes out. Im just more frustrated with the fact we kept Gus and co way too long. Then, this week, we have a player come out and said the biggest different is Marrone preaches winning whereas Gus didn't. Like seriously, how is this a thing?

We see a large amount of players play way better than they have most of this season. I know firing a coach can sometimes light a fire, but still. That team wasnt the team weve seen at any point this year.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jlash wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Jlash wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Jlash wrote:
Who was there at 2? Fluker and Pugh were RT's who ended up being kicked inside to guard. Unless you knew that Terron Armstead or David Bahktiari taken 2-3 rounds later would work out like they did.
Lane Johnson went two picks after Joeckel.


Ahh forgot about the RT on my own team. Again though, has never been tested on the left side so who knows.
Joeckel was trash at RT too. And only mediocre at LG.


Yea that wasn't a great year for tackles in the early rounds.
And the thing is - we had a good LT in Eugene Monroe. There was no reason to take Joeckel except the hype of him being the safest player in the draft. They could have taken Ansah at the position of actual biggest need.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.Buzz wrote:
I dont think we'll ever to see eye to eye on Fowler as a prospect coming out. There was multiple reports showing a lot of teams had Fowler as the top guy defensively in that draft. Hell, ATL who took Beasley had Fowler targeted and they wanted to trade up for him. Washingtons GM had him as their best overall player and didnt know what to do once he went off the board he said post draft.
I understand that a lot of teams had him as this great player. That's why I keep saying he was all hype and no substance. His trait that got everyone to fall in love with him is that he can run really fast in a straight line for 40 yards. GMs love that crap. Look at all the top draft picks at DE that bust. Almost every single one of them was a straight line speed with no lateral movement. And yet teams keep picking these same guys. Yes he was beloved by a lot of teams. Yes he was this and that to all these guys. But the hype was all based on things that don't translate. It's the same thing that makes 6'5 thick body QBs rise up draft boards for no reason while guys like Wilson, Brady and Dak keep sliding to mid-late rounds despite them actually having talent. The boys club that is NFL front offices and coaching trees come from the same circles and they keep reinforcing to each other all these things that don't mean a damn thing are somehow the most important things in the world. They're resistant to change because they're thick headed and stuck in their ways, and all their buddies across the league keep reinforcing the same things to them.

And it's the same thing in all sports. Look what Billy Beane and Theo Epstein are doing in baseball by embracing analytics for over 15 years and dominating the entire league by outsmarting every single team. Beane has one of the lowest payrolls in all of baseball and yet he's building teams better than those that are spending 4-5 times as much as he is. Theo gets a payroll and proceeds to turn a dumpster fire team into one of the 5 best teams in MLB history virtually overnight. And 15 years later, everyone else is still circle jerking to the same ideas that are getting them throttled by the teams embracing the future. That's exactly what Fowler was - NFL execs circle jerking to a 40 time that doesn't mean a damn thing.

When the data says you're going to be wrong if you do something, and you do it anyway only to be proven wrong, maybe we should stop defending it by talking about how everyone else around you ignored the data and was wrong too. And Dave has less of an excuse than all those others because he actually had the data. I know for a fact (as in actual insider info) that Tony showed Justo's formula and all the data to Dave, as well as at least 4 other formulas, and Dave ultimately ignored it to take the player that he was specifically told to not take.

Quote:
Idk man, I just remember Joeckel and Fisher being widely viewed as the top 2 guys in that draft. I was more into the idea of Ansah or too a lesser extent Dion Jordan, but I dont remember anyone saying Luke didnt deserve to be taken top 3.
Hype without substance.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Malik Hooker declared. You can probably throw his name in the mix too
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
.Buzz wrote:
I dont think we'll ever to see eye to eye on Fowler as a prospect coming out. There was multiple reports showing a lot of teams had Fowler as the top guy defensively in that draft. Hell, ATL who took Beasley had Fowler targeted and they wanted to trade up for him. Washingtons GM had him as their best overall player and didnt know what to do once he went off the board he said post draft.


Quote:
Idk man, I just remember Joeckel and Fisher being widely viewed as the top 2 guys in that draft. I was more into the idea of Ansah or too a lesser extent Dion Jordan, but I don't remember anyone saying Luke didn't deserve to be taken top 3.
Hype without substance.


One of things we agreed on to me I always viewed Fowler as a 34OLB. I think this team had a bad way of evaluating talent for what they need did we need a DE yes but to me Fowlers skill set never appealed to what we needed Beasley should have been the pick because he fit what we needed. Even though I wanted Cooper over Fowler I always stuck behind if we were going pass rush Vic was going to be a stud. What do you know Vic turned out to be a animal. Like I said number 3 overall picks have to be elite people looked at me like I was crazy for expecting 8 sacks first year from Fowler.. Hell Bosa had 10.5 and he missed 3 games and Yannick who is a rookie had 8.
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Who I wanted drafted vs Jags over the last 4 drafts
2014:Khalil Mack - Blake Bortles
2015:Amari Cooper - Dante Fowler (I told everyone Vic Beasley would be better than Dante)
2016:Jalen Ramsey - Jalen Ramsey
2017:Solomon Thomas - ????
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.Buzz


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DuvalsKing wrote:
iPwn wrote:
.Buzz wrote:
I dont think we'll ever to see eye to eye on Fowler as a prospect coming out. There was multiple reports showing a lot of teams had Fowler as the top guy defensively in that draft. Hell, ATL who took Beasley had Fowler targeted and they wanted to trade up for him. Washingtons GM had him as their best overall player and didnt know what to do once he went off the board he said post draft.


Quote:
Idk man, I just remember Joeckel and Fisher being widely viewed as the top 2 guys in that draft. I was more into the idea of Ansah or too a lesser extent Dion Jordan, but I don't remember anyone saying Luke didn't deserve to be taken top 3.
Hype without substance.


One of things we agreed on to me I always viewed Fowler as a 34OLB. I think this team had a bad way of evaluating talent for what they need did we need a DE yes but to me Fowlers skill set never appealed to what we needed Beasley should have been the pick because he fit what we needed. Even though I wanted Cooper over Fowler I always stuck behind if we were going pass rush Vic was going to be a stud. What do you know Vic turned out to be a animal. Like I said number 3 overall picks have to be elite people looked at me like I was crazy for expecting 8 sacks first year from Fowler.. Hell Bosa had 10.5 and he missed 3 games and Yannick who is a rookie had 8.


Your boy Beasley had 4.5 sacks last year. Khalil Mack had 4 sacks his rookie year. JPP had 4.5 sacks his rookie year. Obviously sacks doesn't say the whole story and those guys looked better in the pass rush department in their rookie year, but again, they were in roles that fit them well. Our staff didn't do that to Fowler. They said our defense has a LEO, so Fowler HAS to play LEO. They don't care if it fits him, they just force him into the position.

List goes on if you want me to. Pass rusher is one of the hardest positions to come into and thrive. When you pair up the fact Fowler never played DE/didn't often (didn't watch all his games, but he generally was standing up and everywhere on the field) AND he's coming off a major knee injury that caused him to be limited in offseason workouts/training camp.

Just too early. He looked very good in the run game and was VERY physical. Not what we drafted him for, and yes I'd rather Beasley at this point, but I don't get why the results are expected so quickly with these young players.

Guys like Beasley, Ngakoue, etc. were players that played in these roles in college. They were fairly well developed in the pass rush department. Fowler was the raw guy that people think/thought had immense potential. But there was zero doubt the guy was going to need work. You can see that with his hand usage/lack of PR moves.
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