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coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wackywabbit wrote:
sp6488 wrote:
I want to take a CB in the first round because I see there being a very high chance of that being BPA with a guy like Jackson or Tabor at that point. Trying to wait until the 2nd is dangerous IMO. Saying guys "should" be there is largely why we haven't drafted many CBs high since Jimmy. There's always a good chance that teams go absolutely buck wild with drafting CBs and all of our guys through those with a 3rd round grade are gone by our pick in the 2nd round.


We definitely could get a future starter at CB in round 2. A guy who can hopefully step in quickly as our #3 and eventually play outside when Jimmy gets hurt again. Maybe a Tre'Davious White or Jourdan Lewis. There seem to be 10-12 CBs in the draft who seem like fair bets to be capable of being on the field, which is unlike what we have beyond Jimmy and Tavon.

It's very unlikely we can get a real difference making pass rusher or a true #1 playmaking WR in round 2.

In particular I don't see the point in a second round talent at OLB with Judon, Correa, and Z. Smith on the roster, unless the team really thinks they are underrated.


I don't disagree with your sentiment. I just don't trust the front office to draft a cornerback highly and would like to see them take one (worth taking) as early as possible. Otherwise they might fall into the absolute BPA trap while ignoring one of the most important positions on the team. Again.

This past draft was also supposed to be one where there was good cornerback talent available early in the second... and the team went with two trade downs and a pass rusher that they tried to mold into an inside linebacker. Young was a great find in the fourth round but getting a cornerback who played that well that late in the draft is far from the norm. And more depth and talent is still needed at the position.
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drd23


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got this when doing a mock sim the other day

1:16 BAL Reuben Foster LB Alabama
2:16 BAL John Ross WR Washington
3:16 BAL Tre'Davious White CB LSU
4:16 BAL Kyle Fuller C Baylor
5:16 BAL Eddie Jackson S Alabama
6:16 BAL Danny Isidora G Miami
7:16 BAL Keionta Davis EDGE UT Chattanooga

Thought it was funny because the conversation in this thread coincidentally turned to Foster potentially being BPA at our pick and then someone mentioned liking Ross Laughing
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wackywabbit


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
wackywabbit wrote:
sp6488 wrote:
I want to take a CB in the first round because I see there being a very high chance of that being BPA with a guy like Jackson or Tabor at that point. Trying to wait until the 2nd is dangerous IMO. Saying guys "should" be there is largely why we haven't drafted many CBs high since Jimmy. There's always a good chance that teams go absolutely buck wild with drafting CBs and all of our guys through those with a 3rd round grade are gone by our pick in the 2nd round.


We definitely could get a future starter at CB in round 2. A guy who can hopefully step in quickly as our #3 and eventually play outside when Jimmy gets hurt again. Maybe a Tre'Davious White or Jourdan Lewis. There seem to be 10-12 CBs in the draft who seem like fair bets to be capable of being on the field, which is unlike what we have beyond Jimmy and Tavon.

It's very unlikely we can get a real difference making pass rusher or a true #1 playmaking WR in round 2.

In particular I don't see the point in a second round talent at OLB with Judon, Correa, and Z. Smith on the roster, unless the team really thinks they are underrated.


I don't disagree with your sentiment. I just don't trust the front office to draft a cornerback highly and would like to see them take one (worth taking) as early as possible. Otherwise they might fall into the absolute BPA trap while ignoring one of the most important positions on the team. Again.

This past draft was also supposed to be one where there was good cornerback talent available early in the second... and the team went with two trade downs and a pass rusher that they tried to mold into an inside linebacker. Young was a great find in the fourth round but getting a cornerback who played that well that late in the draft is far from the norm. And more depth and talent is still needed at the position.


I get that we are down on the FO/Harbs with the recent coordinator decisions, but they aren't stupid Laughing

Quote:
"We all kind of know what we need," Harbaugh said of fortifying the secondary. "I don't think it's any mystery about where we need to improve personnel-wise, and that's a key spot. We need Jimmy Smith out there playing for us, and he needs to do whatever he needs to do to stay healthy. He'll have his first healthy offseason this year once he heals from his high ankle sprain. He and I have talked about the level of training that needs to go into this offseason. So I put him at that level, and that's where he needs to be and healthy through the season. But we need to add more corners, there's no question about it. Corners that can play at the highest level, and if we can do that, that's going to dramatically impact our defense."


http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bs-sp-ravens-notebook-0104-20170103-story.html

Obviously they wanted Ramsey a little bit more than Stanley in the first, but not enough to move a 3rd, and I don't regret that they didn't make that move. Also, remember that at the time, both Suggs and Dumervil were both coming off of Achilles surgeries, so it made a ton of sense for us to add serviceable players at that spot. Given that they also had some hope for Shareece Wright being a meh starter, given a decent finish to the previous season, it made a lot of sense for them to target Correa and (reportedly) Noah Spence.

BTW, last year's draft thread, I felt the same way about OLB as I do about CB this year:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=569587&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=420

wackywabbit wrote:
r_sayle wrote:
wackywabbit wrote:
For this WR class, I see it as Treadwell or bust. I also like Sterling Shepard, but everyone likes him, so he'll probably go higher than I want (3rd or later). With a thin class, I don't see WR being BPA and there aren't that many guys that are more intriguing than our young prospects like Butler, Waller, and Camp. Our need is for a true #1 and there is only one in the draft.

I think there could be a good OLB who slips into the 2nd. Shaq Lawson, Ogbah, Calhoun, Floyd, and Spence are all in a bunch.


I don't see Spence falling to the second round, he will likely be gone in the first 20 picks.


I don't think Lawson falls to the second either, but SOMEONE will fall.

Character concerns + unimpressive 40 could drop Spence.


Sure, I didn't list Correa there, but... details... Laughing
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coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wackywabbit wrote:
I get that we are down on the FO/Harbs with the recent coordinator decisions, but they aren't stupid Laughing

Quote:
"We all kind of know what we need," Harbaugh said of fortifying the secondary. "I don't think it's any mystery about where we need to improve personnel-wise, and that's a key spot. We need Jimmy Smith out there playing for us, and he needs to do whatever he needs to do to stay healthy. He'll have his first healthy offseason this year once he heals from his high ankle sprain. He and I have talked about the level of training that needs to go into this offseason. So I put him at that level, and that's where he needs to be and healthy through the season. But we need to add more corners, there's no question about it. Corners that can play at the highest level, and if we can do that, that's going to dramatically impact our defense."


http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bs-sp-ravens-notebook-0104-20170103-story.html

Obviously they wanted Ramsey a little bit more than Stanley in the first, but not enough to move a 3rd, and I don't regret that they didn't make that move. Also, remember that at the time, both Suggs and Dumervil were both coming off of Achilles surgeries, so it made a ton of sense for us to add serviceable players at that spot. Given that they also had some hope for Shareece Wright being a meh starter, given a decent finish to the previous season, it made a lot of sense for them to target Correa and (reportedly) Noah Spence.


Man, I just don't trust anything about the decision making right now. Well I have faith that the front office will draft good players. But maybe just not players at the utmost position of need. I was as big of a Stanley fan last draft as anybody and was very happy taking him and wouldn't have made the trade for Ramsey even in hindsight (and considering Kaufusi got hurt in training camp). And I know what Harbaugh said yesterday about wanting more at cornerback, but still... Just don't put much stock into anything he says right now. The wounds are too raw yet.

For what it's worth I think I had the same stance last season about pass-rushers as I do this year. Not a dire need, but if a bona fide stud is there go for it. Was pretty high on Spence too. A shame because I think he did fairly well for Tampa Bay this season. But He could have fallen into the same trap as Correa. No snaps available with Judon stepping up and Pees forcing Suggs, McClellan, and Dumervil on the field whenever possible.
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Danand


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmorecareful wrote:
Danand wrote:
Drafting an inside linebacker is like the Colts drafting another receiver.

TJ Watt just declared. There are some very interesting options for positions of our need.


Not really because after Mosley and Orr wed really don't have any depth at all... but we costly have bigger needs... my thing is this though... Mosley vastly improved in pass coverage this year... if we get another coverage baccer that would help our overall coverage because the baccer can Room the middle and the safety could always play deep or be better utilized to blitz... I'm thinking big picture alot of us have this idea that we are closer than we are... I think if we build it right we can be two years away... I want a clear best position group... I think foster would give us that with Mosley... not just on the team but in the entire league


With that logic we should pick a left tackle, who can service as backup or be used in jumbo packages and make our oline better.

Pees doesn't utilize more inside linebackers or substitute them out of packages, so unless Orr doesn't cut in the coaches eyes, I don't see why we would use our 1. round pick on an inside linebacker.

Us as well as many other teams are more often than not in nickel packages, so why not go the logical route and get a pass rusher or cornerback?
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Danand


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
wackywabbit wrote:
I get that we are down on the FO/Harbs with the recent coordinator decisions, but they aren't stupid Laughing

Quote:
"We all kind of know what we need," Harbaugh said of fortifying the secondary. "I don't think it's any mystery about where we need to improve personnel-wise, and that's a key spot. We need Jimmy Smith out there playing for us, and he needs to do whatever he needs to do to stay healthy. He'll have his first healthy offseason this year once he heals from his high ankle sprain. He and I have talked about the level of training that needs to go into this offseason. So I put him at that level, and that's where he needs to be and healthy through the season. But we need to add more corners, there's no question about it. Corners that can play at the highest level, and if we can do that, that's going to dramatically impact our defense."


http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bs-sp-ravens-notebook-0104-20170103-story.html

Obviously they wanted Ramsey a little bit more than Stanley in the first, but not enough to move a 3rd, and I don't regret that they didn't make that move. Also, remember that at the time, both Suggs and Dumervil were both coming off of Achilles surgeries, so it made a ton of sense for us to add serviceable players at that spot. Given that they also had some hope for Shareece Wright being a meh starter, given a decent finish to the previous season, it made a lot of sense for them to target Correa and (reportedly) Noah Spence.


Man, I just don't trust anything about the decision making right now. Well I have faith that the front office will draft good players. But maybe just not players at the utmost position of need. I was as big of a Stanley fan last draft as anybody and was very happy taking him and wouldn't have made the trade for Ramsey even in hindsight (and considering Kaufusi got hurt in training camp). And I know what Harbaugh said yesterday about wanting more at cornerback, but still... Just don't put much stock into anything he says right now. The wounds are too raw yet.

For what it's worth I think I had the same stance last season about pass-rushers as I do this year. Not a dire need, but if a bona fide stud is there go for it. Was pretty high on Spence too. A shame because I think he did fairly well for Tampa Bay this season. But He could have fallen into the same trap as Correa. No snaps available with Judon stepping up and Pees forcing Suggs, McClellan, and Dumervil on the field whenever possible.


Every time I see a pass rusher, and I really like Barnett and Williams, and Watt could be a player there too, and Takkarist McKinnley has a burst we don't have (thats 4 already), I still have a difficult time seeing them get any playing time unless 1-2 of Suggs, Dumervil, McClellan, Z. Smith, Matt Judon and Correa are cut.

With Dumervils cap number, and Suggs as a potential to take McClellans duties/role, I could see both Dumervil and McClellan gone which would open up a spot.

Otherwise the position is really crowded.
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Mancunian Raven


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They can get depth at ILB either late in the draft or in FA. It's not something I think they need to worry about.

The positions the Ravens need to try and address are the same positions they've needed to address for years now - Corner and pass rusher. You just can't survive with mid-round picks and veteran FAs for as long as the Ravens have tried to do it.

Granted, it's been out of their hands by the way drafts have fallen, but they clearly know what they need to focus on. Of course, I have little faith that Dean Pees will get the best out of the defensive players drafted, but there's not much we can do about that.

On the O-line, keeping Wagner would be a huge bonus. But they need a Center, and if it's not going to be Urschel, they need to get one in this draft. There are some really good Centers that have come out of college over the last couple of years. It looks like there are a couple in 2017 with 2nd round grades, although I know nothing about them other than that.

I got excited for a minute, looking at draft prospects, when I saw that there's a Guard called Nico Siragusa... turns out he's not Tony's son. Oh well.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danand wrote:

Every time I see a pass rusher, and I really like Barnett and Williams, and Watt could be a player there too, and Takkarist McKinnley has a burst we don't have (thats 4 already), I still have a difficult time seeing them get any playing time unless 1-2 of Suggs, Dumervil, McClellan, Z. Smith, Matt Judon and Correa are cut.

With Dumervils cap number, and Suggs as a potential to take McClellans duties/role, I could see both Dumervil and McClellan gone which would open up a spot.

Otherwise the position is really crowded.


But you have to look more than just 1 year out.

Doom is likely cut, I'd expect Judon to step in there.

Suggs is in his twilight years, my guess is next year is his last.

Z Smith is a FA in 2 years.

If an OLB is worth the pick at 16, I can't see any reason we should pass just because the position is currently a bit crowded. Even if they may not play much year 1, we'd be setting ourselves up longer-term.

Remember, this was the same argument about CJ Mosley -- we had Daryl Smith and Arthur Brown was ready to step in next to him. An aging vet plus an unproven 2nd round pick just a year before.
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M.10.E


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can NEVER have too many pass rushers.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.10.E wrote:
You can NEVER have too many pass rushers.


You can when there are guys rotting on the bench because the defensive coordinator can't/refuses to get them in a real rotation. See: Dean Pees, 2016 Ravens defense, Za'Darius Smith, Kamalei Correa.

I get the sentiment, and with Suggs, Dumervil, and probably McClellan shortly outgoing Baltimore isn't really in this spot. But to continue to sink assets in that area and eventually end up with too many to properly utilize is not a sound strategy.

I'm fairly skeptical that a pass rusher will end up being a BPA candidate for the Ravens at 16 in this draft, but if there's one who does fit that description go for it. The team needs a bona fide stud to lead that group on the outside. But to take one just for the sake of taking a pass rusher? Nah. To be clear I don't think anybody is making that argument either, but this isn't shaping up to be a situation where that might be a likely outcome. Well, unless Tim Williams drops. But I would be stunned if that happened.

No, the more likely debate has already started. The "what if Reuben Foster is still on the board" scenario. It's not quite the same situation as a couple years ago with an aging Daryl Smith and an unproven Arthur Brown hopefully stepping into the other starting spot. Mosely is young and practically elite for his position and Orr is serviceable. But the latter is also a RFA this offseason and if all he gets in a low tender then there's a real chance that the front office could view ILB as a fairly big need going forward. And it's not like Orr is a particularly well-rounded player. He can be upgraded in pass-coverage fairly easily, and there's not a whole lot of blitz potential on his end either.

I'm not advocating for Foster to be taken, not in the least. My wish is for a cornerback in the first round or Malik Hooker. If there's any infinitesimal chance that Pees will be around for more than one more season then the secondary needs all the individual talent the team can give it. That's not a debate. But Foster being the BPA and somebody the front office is interested in is something that's entirely plausible. And it scares me, because of the other big issues on the team at some of the most important positions and roles in football. They won't be addressed in free agency. Baltimore doesn't role that way. And if they're not addressed early in the draft then... Crying or Very sad
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Danand


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
Danand wrote:

Every time I see a pass rusher, and I really like Barnett and Williams, and Watt could be a player there too, and Takkarist McKinnley has a burst we don't have (thats 4 already), I still have a difficult time seeing them get any playing time unless 1-2 of Suggs, Dumervil, McClellan, Z. Smith, Matt Judon and Correa are cut.

With Dumervils cap number, and Suggs as a potential to take McClellans duties/role, I could see both Dumervil and McClellan gone which would open up a spot.

Otherwise the position is really crowded.


But you have to look more than just 1 year out.

Doom is likely cut, I'd expect Judon to step in there.

Suggs is in his twilight years, my guess is next year is his last.

Z Smith is a FA in 2 years.

If an OLB is worth the pick at 16, I can't see any reason we should pass just because the position is currently a bit crowded. Even if they may not play much year 1, we'd be setting ourselves up longer-term.

Remember, this was the same argument about CJ Mosley -- we had Daryl Smith and Arthur Brown was ready to step in next to him. An aging vet plus an unproven 2nd round pick just a year before.


And they might as well have given up on Z. Smith and Correa could face the same fate as Arthur Brown and the pick would make perfect sense.

I am not at all opposed to drafting a pass rusher, but I am more inclined to upgrade the back end with a safety/cornerback. We haven't been able to scheme to create the "easy" sacks via stunts, blitzes, overloads so a way we might be able to help our pass rush up front is being able to cover better downfield and give the slowmos up front more time to get to the QB.

And I know this is the exact opposite of what Pees want with his off man coverage, but at least we don't have to rotate much to make room for impact players in the secondary.
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M.10.E


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
M.10.E wrote:
You can NEVER have too many pass rushers.


You can when there are guys rotting on the bench because the defensive coordinator can't/refuses to get them in a real rotation. See: Dean Pees, 2016 Ravens defense, Za'Darius Smith, Kamalei Correa.

I get the sentiment, and with Suggs, Dumervil, and probably McClellan shortly outgoing Baltimore isn't really in this spot. But to continue to sink assets in that area and eventually end up with too many to properly utilize is not a sound strategy.

I'm fairly skeptical that a pass rusher will end up being a BPA candidate for the Ravens at 16 in this draft, but if there's one who does fit that description go for it. The team needs a bona fide stud to lead that group on the outside. But to take one just for the sake of taking a pass rusher? Nah. To be clear I don't think anybody is making that argument either, but this isn't shaping up to be a situation where that might be a likely outcome. Well, unless Tim Williams drops. But I would be stunned if that happened.

No, the more likely debate has already started. The "what if Reuben Foster is still on the board" scenario. It's not quite the same situation as a couple years ago with an aging Daryl Smith and an unproven Arthur Brown hopefully stepping into the other starting spot. Mosely is young and practically elite for his position and Orr is serviceable. But the latter is also a RFA this offseason and if all he gets in a low tender then there's a real chance that the front office could view ILB as a fairly big need going forward. And it's not like Orr is a particularly well-rounded player. He can be upgraded in pass-coverage fairly easily, and there's not a whole lot of blitz potential on his end either.

I'm not advocating for Foster to be taken, not in the least. My wish is for a cornerback in the first round or Malik Hooker. If there's any infinitesimal chance that Pees will be around for more than one more season then the secondary needs all the individual talent the team can give it. That's not a debate. But Foster being the BPA and somebody the front office is interested in is something that's entirely plausible. And it scares me, because of the other big issues on the team at some of the most important positions and roles in football. They won't be addressed in free agency. Baltimore doesn't role that way. And if they're not addressed early in the draft then... Crying or Very sad


Let me clarify: you can NEVER have too many GOOD pass rushers haha.
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wackywabbit


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The amount of disrespect in this thread for 2nd team-all pro Zachary Orr

Laughing
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wackywabbit wrote:
The amount of disrespect in this thread for 2nd team-all pro Zachary Orr

Laughing


who has disrespected him once?
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wackywabbit


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
wackywabbit wrote:
The amount of disrespect in this thread for 2nd team-all pro Zachary Orr

Laughing


who has disrespected him once?


Umm... there's talk in this thread a page or two back about how we should draft Foster because Orr could be upgraded...

C'mon I was just making a snide remark about him getting an all-pro, not to be taken seriously Laughing
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