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jsthomp2007


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
Denver needs to stay away from these "project players" with early picks. Adam Gotsis, Ty Sambrailo, Michael Schofield- these are guys with potential based on something (in Schofield's case I'm not sure what).

Instead, we need guys with high floors who can contribute. Denver has shown the ability to develop players, and starting at a high floor at least allows for some immediate contribution.

I would not want to see Denver reach on players simply because. That would be an awful approach to a very good draft. This is another strong defensive draft and Denver should take advantage. I wouldn't mind an early CB to replace Talib eventually. Or Roby. Either way.



You are right. They do not need 10 development players. They seem to get really great value in the later rounds and from UDFA already...they should keep their developmental picks to those rounds.
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BroncoBruin


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the 2nd round will be the sweet spot to trade up and get a borderline 1st round talent.
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We have to keep in mind that Rob Bironas is dead, but might be an upgrade over McMannus.
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Reggie Nelson#1


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncoBruin wrote:
I think the 2nd round will be the sweet spot to trade up and get a borderline 1st round talent.


Like Christian McCaffrey to be our Tevin Coleman?
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AnAngryAmerican


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
Denver needs to stay away from these "project players" with early picks. Adam Gotsis, Ty Sambrailo, Michael Schofield- these are guys with potential based on something (in Schofield's case I'm not sure what).

Instead, we need guys with high floors who can contribute. Denver has shown the ability to develop players, and starting at a high floor at least allows for some immediate contribution.

I would not want to see Denver reach on players simply because. That would be an awful approach to a very good draft. This is another strong defensive draft and Denver should take advantage. I wouldn't mind an early CB to replace Talib eventually. Or Roby. Either way.

As regards the bolded, I think it was 30-something starts at Michigan at four of the five spots on the o-line. I actaully don't think Schofield was that awful as a RG.

But I do agree. I like going BPA especially early, that's how good teams stay good. And I think with whatever Elway does in FA will plug some of the holes an allow to go BPA in at least the first and second. I do have a man crush on Christian McCaffery though, I would love to see what Kyle (if he does get the HC job, as I expect) could do with a multi-faceted talent like that; he'd be an instant fan favorite.
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germ-x


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
Denver needs to stay away from these "project players" with early picks. Adam Gotsis, Ty Sambrailo, Michael Schofield- these are guys with potential based on something (in Schofield's case I'm not sure what).

Instead, we need guys with high floors who can contribute. Denver has shown the ability to develop players, and starting at a high floor at least allows for some immediate contribution.

I would not want to see Denver reach on players simply because. That would be an awful approach to a very good draft. This is another strong defensive draft and Denver should take advantage. I wouldn't mind an early CB to replace Talib eventually. Or Roby. Either way.

As regards the bolded, I think it was 30-something starts at Michigan at four of the five spots on the o-line. I actaully don't think Schofield was that awful as a RG.

But I do agree. I like going BPA especially early, that's how good teams stay good. And I think with whatever Elway does in FA will plug some of the holes an allow to go BPA in at least the first and second. I do have a man crush on Christian McCaffery though, I would love to see what Kyle (if he does get the HC job, as I expect) could do with a multi-faceted talent like that; he'd be an instant fan favorite.


Schofield was solid. I was reading an article about Denver's OL play and RT was just a disaster all year, while Paradis was just rock solid. On the flips side Okung, Garcia, and Schofield were terribly inconsistent. 1 series they could look like long time NFL starters and on the next look like they don't even belong on the field. I believe all 3 of Okung, Garcia, and Schofield ranked right around average at their positions according to Pro Football Focus last time I had looked.
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broncos67


Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

germ-x wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
Denver needs to stay away from these "project players" with early picks. Adam Gotsis, Ty Sambrailo, Michael Schofield- these are guys with potential based on something (in Schofield's case I'm not sure what).

Instead, we need guys with high floors who can contribute. Denver has shown the ability to develop players, and starting at a high floor at least allows for some immediate contribution.

I would not want to see Denver reach on players simply because. That would be an awful approach to a very good draft. This is another strong defensive draft and Denver should take advantage. I wouldn't mind an early CB to replace Talib eventually. Or Roby. Either way.

As regards the bolded, I think it was 30-something starts at Michigan at four of the five spots on the o-line. I actaully don't think Schofield was that awful as a RG.

But I do agree. I like going BPA especially early, that's how good teams stay good. And I think with whatever Elway does in FA will plug some of the holes an allow to go BPA in at least the first and second. I do have a man crush on Christian McCaffery though, I would love to see what Kyle (if he does get the HC job, as I expect) could do with a multi-faceted talent like that; he'd be an instant fan favorite.


Schofield was solid. I was reading an article about Denver's OL play and RT was just a disaster all year, while Paradis was just rock solid. On the flips side Okung, Garcia, and Schofield were terribly inconsistent. 1 series they could look like long time NFL starters and on the next look like they don't even belong on the field. I believe all 3 of Okung, Garcia, and Schofield ranked right around average at their positions according to Pro Football Focus last time I had looked.


Schofield might have been solid but he was 100% overdrafted, same as Adam Gotsis. I actually think Schofield will start at OG for us next year, but his play this year was better once he moved inside so I don't mind that as much. Garcia/Stephenson/Okung are the ones who need to be replaced.
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
germ-x wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
Denver needs to stay away from these "project players" with early picks. Adam Gotsis, Ty Sambrailo, Michael Schofield- these are guys with potential based on something (in Schofield's case I'm not sure what).

Instead, we need guys with high floors who can contribute. Denver has shown the ability to develop players, and starting at a high floor at least allows for some immediate contribution.

I would not want to see Denver reach on players simply because. That would be an awful approach to a very good draft. This is another strong defensive draft and Denver should take advantage. I wouldn't mind an early CB to replace Talib eventually. Or Roby. Either way.

As regards the bolded, I think it was 30-something starts at Michigan at four of the five spots on the o-line. I actaully don't think Schofield was that awful as a RG.

But I do agree. I like going BPA especially early, that's how good teams stay good. And I think with whatever Elway does in FA will plug some of the holes an allow to go BPA in at least the first and second. I do have a man crush on Christian McCaffery though, I would love to see what Kyle (if he does get the HC job, as I expect) could do with a multi-faceted talent like that; he'd be an instant fan favorite.


Schofield was solid. I was reading an article about Denver's OL play and RT was just a disaster all year, while Paradis was just rock solid. On the flips side Okung, Garcia, and Schofield were terribly inconsistent. 1 series they could look like long time NFL starters and on the next look like they don't even belong on the field. I believe all 3 of Okung, Garcia, and Schofield ranked right around average at their positions according to Pro Football Focus last time I had looked.


Schofield might have been solid but he was 100% overdrafted, same as Adam Gotsis. I actually think Schofield will start at OG for us next year, but his play this year was better once he moved inside so I don't mind that as much. Garcia/Stephenson/Okung are the ones who need to be replaced.

I actually think Gotsis has an awful lot of talent. And we've seen Elway picks do nothing in year one and then break out in year two.

Now most had continuity from year one to year two,;the only ones that didn't were the 2014 (Roby-Latimer-Schofield) class that played as rookies for Fox and as second-year players for Kubiak - so that class gets a mulligan. I think the same applies for Gotsis, year he didn't do much this year but he was hurt. Next year he might have to learn a new scheme depending upon which way we go with the HC. But Schofield, while over-drafted, could become a mainstay at OG even if he was drafted to play OT.
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elliot878


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
germ-x wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
Denver needs to stay away from these "project players" with early picks. Adam Gotsis, Ty Sambrailo, Michael Schofield- these are guys with potential based on something (in Schofield's case I'm not sure what).

Instead, we need guys with high floors who can contribute. Denver has shown the ability to develop players, and starting at a high floor at least allows for some immediate contribution.

I would not want to see Denver reach on players simply because. That would be an awful approach to a very good draft. This is another strong defensive draft and Denver should take advantage. I wouldn't mind an early CB to replace Talib eventually. Or Roby. Either way.

As regards the bolded, I think it was 30-something starts at Michigan at four of the five spots on the o-line. I actaully don't think Schofield was that awful as a RG.

But I do agree. I like going BPA especially early, that's how good teams stay good. And I think with whatever Elway does in FA will plug some of the holes an allow to go BPA in at least the first and second. I do have a man crush on Christian McCaffery though, I would love to see what Kyle (if he does get the HC job, as I expect) could do with a multi-faceted talent like that; he'd be an instant fan favorite.


Schofield was solid. I was reading an article about Denver's OL play and RT was just a disaster all year, while Paradis was just rock solid. On the flips side Okung, Garcia, and Schofield were terribly inconsistent. 1 series they could look like long time NFL starters and on the next look like they don't even belong on the field. I believe all 3 of Okung, Garcia, and Schofield ranked right around average at their positions according to Pro Football Focus last time I had looked.


Schofield might have been solid but he was 100% overdrafted, same as Adam Gotsis. I actually think Schofield will start at OG for us next year, but his play this year was better once he moved inside so I don't mind that as much. Garcia/Stephenson/Okung are the ones who need to be replaced.

I actually think Gotsis has an awful lot of talent. And we've seen Elway picks do nothing in year one and then break out in year two.

Now most had continuity from year one to year two,;the only ones that didn't were the 2014 (Roby-Latimer-Schofield) class that played as rookies for Fox and as second-year players for Kubiak - so that class gets a mulligan. I think the same applies for Gotsis, year he didn't do much this year but he was hurt. Next year he might have to learn a new scheme depending upon which way we go with the HC. But Schofield, while over-drafted, could become a mainstay at OG even if he was drafted to play OT.



I think it would be a grave mistake to make the assumption that anyone on this line could be a mainstay beside Matt Paradis, and that really only applies to him if we keep the zone scheme.

We made the mistake of expecting development out of guys last year - but the front office badly misjudged the talent they had in hand. It was very clear that the draft picks we made either stunk (Sambrailo) or were miscast for the scheme (Garcia). I predicted after free agency and the draft that this line would fail miserably, and it did.

The whole line outside Paradis needs to be re-tooled, and not a single one of them (again outside Paradis) should be penciled in as a starter, or even to make the 53 man roster. This includes Schofield, whose never been that effective, he just looks a little better than the crap surrounding him.

Approaching the offensive line any other way will lead us down the same path as we went this year. Our goal should honestly be to find four starters, while still being smart with our FA dollars and draft picks. If we get two, or three, then good, and may the best man/men returning win the open slots.
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broncosfan07


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Schofield should definitely be on the roster but I don't think he's someone you want starting for years to come. Could be a solid back up but his pass protection is still a disaster.
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Broncofan


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elliot878 wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
germ-x wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
Denver needs to stay away from these "project players" with early picks. Adam Gotsis, Ty Sambrailo, Michael Schofield- these are guys with potential based on something (in Schofield's case I'm not sure what).

Instead, we need guys with high floors who can contribute. Denver has shown the ability to develop players, and starting at a high floor at least allows for some immediate contribution.

I would not want to see Denver reach on players simply because. That would be an awful approach to a very good draft. This is another strong defensive draft and Denver should take advantage. I wouldn't mind an early CB to replace Talib eventually. Or Roby. Either way.

As regards the bolded, I think it was 30-something starts at Michigan at four of the five spots on the o-line. I actaully don't think Schofield was that awful as a RG.

But I do agree. I like going BPA especially early, that's how good teams stay good. And I think with whatever Elway does in FA will plug some of the holes an allow to go BPA in at least the first and second. I do have a man crush on Christian McCaffery though, I would love to see what Kyle (if he does get the HC job, as I expect) could do with a multi-faceted talent like that; he'd be an instant fan favorite.


Schofield was solid. I was reading an article about Denver's OL play and RT was just a disaster all year, while Paradis was just rock solid. On the flips side Okung, Garcia, and Schofield were terribly inconsistent. 1 series they could look like long time NFL starters and on the next look like they don't even belong on the field. I believe all 3 of Okung, Garcia, and Schofield ranked right around average at their positions according to Pro Football Focus last time I had looked.


Schofield might have been solid but he was 100% overdrafted, same as Adam Gotsis. I actually think Schofield will start at OG for us next year, but his play this year was better once he moved inside so I don't mind that as much. Garcia/Stephenson/Okung are the ones who need to be replaced.

I actually think Gotsis has an awful lot of talent. And we've seen Elway picks do nothing in year one and then break out in year two.

Now most had continuity from year one to year two,;the only ones that didn't were the 2014 (Roby-Latimer-Schofield) class that played as rookies for Fox and as second-year players for Kubiak - so that class gets a mulligan. I think the same applies for Gotsis, year he didn't do much this year but he was hurt. Next year he might have to learn a new scheme depending upon which way we go with the HC. But Schofield, while over-drafted, could become a mainstay at OG even if he was drafted to play OT.



I think it would be a grave mistake to make the assumption that anyone on this line could be a mainstay beside Matt Paradis, and that really only applies to him if we keep the zone scheme.

We made the mistake of expecting development out of guys last year - but the front office badly misjudged the talent they had in hand. It was very clear that the draft picks we made either stunk (Sambrailo) or were miscast for the scheme (Garcia). I predicted after free agency and the draft that this line would fail miserably, and it did.

The whole line outside Paradis needs to be re-tooled, and not a single one of them (again outside Paradis) should be penciled in as a starter, or even to make the 53 man roster. This includes Schofield, whose never been that effective, he just looks a little better than the crap surrounding him.

Approaching the offensive line any other way will lead us down the same path as we went this year. Our goal should honestly be to find four starters, while still being smart with our FA dollars and draft picks. If we get two, or three, then good, and may the best man/men returning win the open slots.


That's a best-case approach for sure - but replacing 4 starters in 1 offseason with guys outside our overall team roster is a pretty tall order.

More realistic IMO is that Schofield/Garcia/Stephenson compete for 1 starting spot at RG, and the other 2 act as depth, Stephenson as backup G/T, and I'd guess Garcia as backup C/G. Getting 3 starters from the outside through this year's FA and draft and getting a DE/NT upgrade for our run D is do-able with our cap $ and Elway's mastery of the FA market, but if we want to get 2-3 impact guys on T/DL, it's hard seeing 4 new OL starters.

Maybe only 2 of those 3 guys I mentioned (Schofield, Garcia, Stephenson) make the 53-man roster in an ideal scenario, to really put the pressure on them to step it up. But not guaranteeing any of them a roster spot is a pretty resource-heavy proposition, even with our cap space, if we agree there are only a couple of key guys we can address LT/LG with (G with Rd 2 pick or FA, LT probably only through FA, no great plug-and-play LT's available where we draft, or worth it at 1.20, or 2.50 - RT maybe, but I prefer overall BPA approach that early). Put another way - if we get Whitworth, an impact DE and NT in FA, or Whitworth, a decent LG and DE/NT via FA (and address the other side of NT/DE and say RT in the draft), unless Elway goes bargain basement the whole way thorough, I suspect 2-3 splash signings uses up much of our cap space, with the left for rookie draft/depth. And that's only 2 OL positions upgraded, but our run game deficiencies addressed. I think Elway can sneak in a 3rd (RT easier to fill, a rookie is possible, maybe Rd 2-3, more likely a cheaper T like Will Beatty moving to RT).

In a cap-less era, I think 4 OL starters being new from off the roster is the ideal, but given our DE/NT & other needs (NT, 3rd WR and ILB shouldn't be expensive, DE will be), 4 starters is a lot of resource usage, that even with 50M+, with the cap going up for everyone, I don't know that we can find, even for a master like Elway.
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BroncosFan2010


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya, you don't replace four OL starters in one offseason.

Paradis is clearly a keeper. After that, gun to my head, I keep Schofield. Cheap, upward trajectory at OG and versatile. He doesn't make huge mistakes in pass protection and rarely loses his initial assignment. Then again, while he rarely loses his initial 1v1, he never wins either and seems to get little, if any, true push in the run game. He is only an anchor, and those types are not hard to find.
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champ11


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I legitimately did not see Gotsis make a play all season. That's a red flag, honestly.
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iLikeDefense


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

champ11 wrote:
I legitimately did not see Gotsis make a play all season. That's a red flag, honestly.


I didn't catch the last game of the year, I thought I read on here that he made plays that game. I guess that isn't saying much though since the Raiders did quit after Carr went down.
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champ11


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iLikeDefense wrote:
champ11 wrote:
I legitimately did not see Gotsis make a play all season. That's a red flag, honestly.


I didn't catch the last game of the year, I thought I read on here that he made plays that game. I guess that isn't saying much though since the Raiders did quit after Carr went down.


I missed the second half of that game - they took it off at the bar lol.
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BroncosFan2010


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I legitimately did not see Gotsis make a play all season. That's a red flag, honestly.


Ya, that's what I said in another thread. I understand developmental guys, but even a developmental guy, especially a guy who you drafted based on physical profile, should splash infrequently. Gotsis played something like 18-20% of our defensive snaps and literally, not once, did I notice him make a play.

In preseason he was making a few, at least we can lean on that. But when the games started to matter, and the talent level of opposition was raised, he was totally useless. For a guy that was hyped as athletic, strong and stout, he always seemed to be on his butt or pushed back.

He should not even be relied on for backup reps next season. There is time, and potential, but he really was a 'ground up' project and that's just a mistake in the second round for a team with legitimate playoff aspirations IMO. I wont be satisfied with our 34DE depth unless we get four guys ahead of Gotsis. He shouldn't be playing right now.
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