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Chieferific


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4905
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In depth analysis on Lawson...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFRjcdI-vj4
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KJtheWicked


Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 1880
Location: Norrisville, Pa
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thoughts on Tarell Basham? His tape is phenomenal. What is holding him back from being a 1st round pick? Far more impressed by him than Harris, Lawson, or Takk. Granted he played smaller schools, but even in the Tennessee game he was a menace. Great burst off the line, great motor, good against the run. Could be a better tackler though, seen a couple bad misses.
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 3561
Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KJtheWicked wrote:
Thoughts on Tarell Basham? His tape is phenomenal. What is holding him back from being a 1st round pick? Far more impressed by him than Harris, Lawson, or Takk. Granted he played smaller schools, but even in the Tennessee game he was a menace. Great burst off the line, great motor, good against the run. Could be a better tackler though, seen a couple bad misses.


Doesn't use his hands. Level of Competition. Doesn't change direction all that well. Tight. Doesn't have great arm strength.

Can play 3-4 or 4-3 but most likely will be a base 4-3 end that plays well against the run and moves inside against the pass.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 10157
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOC, limited side movement so 4-3 DE. Moves great straight ahead. Does not bend well 15 reps on bench. For me the KEI of 53 is just a killer.

Harris has better pass rushing technique ( but does not do well vs the run).

Lawson looks like JJ with shorter arms and less side-to-side movement.
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"You build with draft choices. You find people with talents adaptable to your plans and then you teach them to do things the way we do them." - Chuck Noll
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 3561
Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
LOC, limited side movement so 4-3 DE. Moves great straight ahead. Does not bend well 15 reps on bench. For me the KEI of 53 is just a killer.

Harris has better pass rushing technique ( but does not do well vs the run).

Lawson looks like JJ with shorter arms and less side-to-side movement.


Lawson's tape looks much better than JJ to me.

JJ was very herky jerky, slow off the line, and looks to find the ball. Lawson does both at the same time and is a little smoother. JJ never used his hands in college and still doesn't. Lawson uses his hands well for a college player. JJ also lost pad level and leverage fast and plays very upright while Lawson gets lower and keeps leverage.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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Chieferific


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4905
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

warfelg wrote:
jebrick wrote:
LOC, limited side movement so 4-3 DE. Moves great straight ahead. Does not bend well 15 reps on bench. For me the KEI of 53 is just a killer.

Harris has better pass rushing technique ( but does not do well vs the run).

Lawson looks like JJ with shorter arms and less side-to-side movement.


Lawson's tape looks much better than JJ to me.

JJ was very herky jerky, slow off the line, and looks to find the ball. Lawson does both at the same time and is a little smoother. JJ never used his hands in college and still doesn't. Lawson uses his hands well for a college player. JJ also lost pad level and leverage fast and plays very upright while Lawson gets lower and keeps leverage.

Agreed. Lawson is great off the snap but what makes him special is what happens next. He has GREAT acceleration to the QB. Watch tape. He gets off fast but widens his lead quickly in 1 to 2 steps. Very explosive off the line. He admittedly does not bend well or flip his hips well but uses his hands nicely and that burst is just so impressive to me.
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KJtheWicked


Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 1880
Location: Norrisville, Pa
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of that stuff can be taught though. The hand technique, the bend(maybe), learning new moves. All these edge rushers need coached up. The level of competition I'll give you, but even against Tennessee Basham looked great. Compare that to Rivers, also low LOC, look very mediocre against West Virginia.And if you watch his tape again, you'll see him rushing from the LB position and even dropping into coverage quite a bit, so being a 3-4 OLB wouldn't really be new to him. The 15 bench reps is concerning. That makes me wonder how much work he puts in in the weight room.

TBH, I don't see 1st round talent in Harris at all. Of all the edge rushers I've watched, he's the one I'm least impressed with. I watched him get blown off the ball a LOT. Now granted, Missouri wasn't very good. Their run D was awful, so teams ran a lot on them. He has a nice burst, but looked slow to me afterwards. Watched him give up on a lot of plays. Very mild motor.

Really the conclusion I'm coming to is, I'm not sure that it's worth taking an edge rushers in the 1st. I see a ton of decent players, guys with high upsides and athletic ability, but need a lot of work. I really haven't seen much of a drop between guys being mocked late 1st and guys being mocked in the 3rd.
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 3561
Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chieferific wrote:
warfelg wrote:
jebrick wrote:
LOC, limited side movement so 4-3 DE. Moves great straight ahead. Does not bend well 15 reps on bench. For me the KEI of 53 is just a killer.

Harris has better pass rushing technique ( but does not do well vs the run).

Lawson looks like JJ with shorter arms and less side-to-side movement.


Lawson's tape looks much better than JJ to me.

JJ was very herky jerky, slow off the line, and looks to find the ball. Lawson does both at the same time and is a little smoother. JJ never used his hands in college and still doesn't. Lawson uses his hands well for a college player. JJ also lost pad level and leverage fast and plays very upright while Lawson gets lower and keeps leverage.

Agreed. Lawson is great off the snap but what makes him special is what happens next. He has GREAT acceleration to the QB. Watch tape. He gets off fast but widens his lead quickly in 1 to 2 steps. Very explosive off the line. He admittedly does not bend well or flip his hips well but uses his hands nicely and that burst is just so impressive to me.


Lawson has a lot of tenacity to him too. Even though you can say the combine looks similar to JJ, tape could not look wildly different.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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armsteeld


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 6796
Location: In your head
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KJtheWicked wrote:
Some of that stuff can be taught though. The hand technique, the bend(maybe), learning new moves. All these edge rushers need coached up. The level of competition I'll give you, but even against Tennessee Basham looked great. Compare that to Rivers, also low LOC, look very mediocre against West Virginia.And if you watch his tape again, you'll see him rushing from the LB position and even dropping into coverage quite a bit, so being a 3-4 OLB wouldn't really be new to him. The 15 bench reps is concerning. That makes me wonder how much work he puts in in the weight room.

TBH, I don't see 1st round talent in Harris at all. Of all the edge rushers I've watched, he's the one I'm least impressed with. I watched him get blown off the ball a LOT. Now granted, Missouri wasn't very good. Their run D was awful, so teams ran a lot on them. He has a nice burst, but looked slow to me afterwards. Watched him give up on a lot of plays. Very mild motor.

Really the conclusion I'm coming to is, I'm not sure that it's worth taking an edge rushers in the 1st. I see a ton of decent players, guys with high upsides and athletic ability, but need a lot of work. I really haven't seen much of a drop between guys being mocked late 1st and guys being mocked in the 3rd.


I can agree with almost everything you said. Harris is a very good pass rusher but sucks against the run. He looked smooth at the combine but all that is not with the sped of the game coming at you. The guys we like in the 1st round, I can name a couple guys very similar in the 7th round. That just tells how deep this draft is defensively and that applies to EVERY defensive position. What we don't know are how intelligent these guys are (football wise)? How committed they are? What drives them? There are many factors that make a successful player.
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"Sheep follow the flock for direction and security but scatter at the sight of the lone wolf". Rocky
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 3561
Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

armsteeld wrote:
KJtheWicked wrote:
Some of that stuff can be taught though. The hand technique, the bend(maybe), learning new moves. All these edge rushers need coached up. The level of competition I'll give you, but even against Tennessee Basham looked great. Compare that to Rivers, also low LOC, look very mediocre against West Virginia.And if you watch his tape again, you'll see him rushing from the LB position and even dropping into coverage quite a bit, so being a 3-4 OLB wouldn't really be new to him. The 15 bench reps is concerning. That makes me wonder how much work he puts in in the weight room.

TBH, I don't see 1st round talent in Harris at all. Of all the edge rushers I've watched, he's the one I'm least impressed with. I watched him get blown off the ball a LOT. Now granted, Missouri wasn't very good. Their run D was awful, so teams ran a lot on them. He has a nice burst, but looked slow to me afterwards. Watched him give up on a lot of plays. Very mild motor.

Really the conclusion I'm coming to is, I'm not sure that it's worth taking an edge rushers in the 1st. I see a ton of decent players, guys with high upsides and athletic ability, but need a lot of work. I really haven't seen much of a drop between guys being mocked late 1st and guys being mocked in the 3rd.


I can agree with almost everything you said. Harris is a very good pass rusher but sucks against the run. He looked smooth at the combine but all that is not with the sped of the game coming at you. The guys we like in the 1st round, I can name a couple guys very similar in the 7th round. That just tells how deep this draft is defensively and that applies to EVERY defensive position. What we don't know are how intelligent these guys are (football wise)? How committed they are? What drives them? There are many factors that make a successful player.


I mean you can name guys who would be there in the 7th, but there's a reason some guys are in the 1st and some in the 7th.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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armsteeld


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 6796
Location: In your head
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

warfelg wrote:
armsteeld wrote:
KJtheWicked wrote:
Some of that stuff can be taught though. The hand technique, the bend(maybe), learning new moves. All these edge rushers need coached up. The level of competition I'll give you, but even against Tennessee Basham looked great. Compare that to Rivers, also low LOC, look very mediocre against West Virginia.And if you watch his tape again, you'll see him rushing from the LB position and even dropping into coverage quite a bit, so being a 3-4 OLB wouldn't really be new to him. The 15 bench reps is concerning. That makes me wonder how much work he puts in in the weight room.

TBH, I don't see 1st round talent in Harris at all. Of all the edge rushers I've watched, he's the one I'm least impressed with. I watched him get blown off the ball a LOT. Now granted, Missouri wasn't very good. Their run D was awful, so teams ran a lot on them. He has a nice burst, but looked slow to me afterwards. Watched him give up on a lot of plays. Very mild motor.

Really the conclusion I'm coming to is, I'm not sure that it's worth taking an edge rushers in the 1st. I see a ton of decent players, guys with high upsides and athletic ability, but need a lot of work. I really haven't seen much of a drop between guys being mocked late 1st and guys being mocked in the 3rd.


I can agree with almost everything you said. Harris is a very good pass rusher but sucks against the run. He looked smooth at the combine but all that is not with the sped of the game coming at you. The guys we like in the 1st round, I can name a couple guys very similar in the 7th round. That just tells how deep this draft is defensively and that applies to EVERY defensive position. What we don't know are how intelligent these guys are (football wise)? How committed they are? What drives them? There are many factors that make a successful player.


I mean you can name guys who would be there in the 7th, but there's a reason some guys are in the 1st and some in the 7th.


Yes indeed they are still there in the 7th but some of those being pimped is mostly due to school. Media doesn't care about the player; it's all about the school. Major schools pay the media to hype up their prospect (I feel that way). Yes there is LOC and that makes sense also. Many people scream LOC yet look at this:

Jerry Rice, Shannon Sharpe, Mean Joe Greene, Jackie Slater, Walter Payton, Willie Brown, Gene Upshaw, Deacon Jones, - Night Train Lane, Sid Luckman, Brett Favre, Willie Lanier, Mel Blount, Chuck Bednarik, Willie Brown, Larry Allen, etc....

There is a game within the game but we won't see it unless we want to.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 10157
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://settingedge.com/movement

An interesting article on pass rushers.


Quote:
Athletic pass-rushers on average blow non-athletic pass-rushers out of the water in terms of their peak production. Their retention rate is even better. Athleticism equals production equals longevity.
Itís not as easy to find pass-rushers outside of the top 20 picks in the draft as some fans would assume. Thereís a reason why insane contract are being thrown around and defensive ends are making about $2 million per sack in that no manís land range of contracts like Andre Branchís. Taking a pass-rusher in the late first round or second round is similar to the market of quarterback. Those two positions are essentially the same in terms of value.
Itís harder and harder to find Force Player and Mid Tier athletes the deeper you get into a draft. Athletes go early. Some of the Day 2 selections who slipped through the cracks (Frank Clark, Justin Houston and Randy Gregory) were only there because of their off-field issues, too.

Draft athletes. Try to get them early.


#3 on his list this year, after Garrett and Thomas...Bowser
Quote:
Tyus Bowser might be one of the more interesting projections in this draft class. He never really played as a pass-rusher at Houston. He had great production, on a per game basis, in his limited 2016 season, but he was mostly used as an overhang defender. Really, he was playing a similar role to Darron Lee, formerly of Ohio State and now with the New York Jets, where heíd line up in the box if there was a heavy offensive formation, but split out as a slot player if offensive players were detached.


#4 T.T.Watt
#5 Willis
#6 Rivers
#7 Hendricks
#8 Dimick
Quote:
Hunter Dimick has been a known prospect out west for a while, but for whatever reason he wasnít invited to the combine. His pro day numbers got him here, the only player we can say that of in this draft class. He has a bit of a stocky body, but you see his athleticism at his burst off the line of scrimmage, when he turns the corner and when heís avoiding cut blocks.


All Players the Steelers should be looking at.
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JLambert58


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 2013
Location: Denver, CO
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
http://settingedge.com/movement

An interesting article on pass rushers.

#4 T.T.Watt
#5 Willis
#6 Rivers
#7 Hendricks
#8 Dimick
Quote:
Hunter Dimick has been a known prospect out west for a while, but for whatever reason he wasnít invited to the combine. His pro day numbers got him here, the only player we can say that of in this draft class. He has a bit of a stocky body, but you see his athleticism at his burst off the line of scrimmage, when he turns the corner and when heís avoiding cut blocks.


All Players the Steelers should be looking at.


Good article. Dimick is a beast. He's lacking ideal lateral quickness/change of direction but otherwise a very effective pass rusher. 38 reps on the bench is ridiculous.
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MOSteelers56


Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 6605
Location: Anywheresville Missouri
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JLambert58 wrote:
jebrick wrote:
http://settingedge.com/movement

An interesting article on pass rushers.

#4 T.T.Watt
#5 Willis
#6 Rivers
#7 Hendricks
#8 Dimick
Quote:
Hunter Dimick has been a known prospect out west for a while, but for whatever reason he wasnít invited to the combine. His pro day numbers got him here, the only player we can say that of in this draft class. He has a bit of a stocky body, but you see his athleticism at his burst off the line of scrimmage, when he turns the corner and when heís avoiding cut blocks.



All Players the Steelers should be looking at.


Good article. Dimick is a beast. He's lacking ideal lateral quickness/change of direction but otherwise a very effective pass rusher. 38 reps on the bench is ridiculous.

Not nearly as impressive when you note how short his arms are.
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Last edited by MOSteelers56 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chieferific


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4905
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In depth analysis on Derek Rivers...
There was an interesting point made that the Defensive scheme he played in limited Rivers' "getoff" on the snap because he was often told to play Tackle Read. Meaning, wait and see what the Tackle is doing before rushing. So, if anyone has concerns about his "getoff" this could explain it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPz7_VEVBeg
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