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mse326


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
You called it right his biggest issue is angles and over pursuit. I think that can be fixed. He has the other stuff. I don't expect prospects to come in great I have coaches for a reason.


But I do expect a bit more polish. Don't get me wrong, he's intriguing but his instincts aren't where they need to be, and those really aren't something you can coach up. Quite frankly, most of his issues are something you'd anticipate seeing in someone with limited snaps at the position. He's someone whose been essentially a full-time starter since he redshirted his true freshman year.


I think where we differ is in what we see the problem is. I don't see an issue with instincts like seeing the hole or reading the O-line. I see more of a physical issue in reading the angle and staying disciplined. If it is instincts I'd agree with you.
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KingBishop


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
CWood21 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
You called it right his biggest issue is angles and over pursuit. I think that can be fixed. He has the other stuff. I don't expect prospects to come in great I have coaches for a reason.


But I do expect a bit more polish. Don't get me wrong, he's intriguing but his instincts aren't where they need to be, and those really aren't something you can coach up. Quite frankly, most of his issues are something you'd anticipate seeing in someone with limited snaps at the position. He's someone whose been essentially a full-time starter since he redshirted his true freshman year.


I think where we differ is in what we see the problem is. I don't see an issue with instincts like seeing the hole or reading the O-line. I see more of a physical issue in reading the angle and staying disciplined. If it is instincts I'd agree with you.


He's a chase and drag down tackler. And even at that he often lunges and misses. If I'm taking a LBer first round I want an enforcer to stops guys in their tracks not a guy who makes contact with a RB two yards short of the first down but still allows the guy to consistently reach forward and extend for and get it. Where's the pop?
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Jourdan Lewis, Jonathan Allen, Myles Garrett
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Deforest Buckner is the best player in the 2016 draft class
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
I think where we differ is in what we see the problem is. I don't see an issue with instincts like seeing the hole or reading the O-line. I see more of a physical issue in reading the angle and staying disciplined. If it is instincts I'd agree with you.


For me, angles and instincts are pretty much tied together. And if he didn't have great athleticism, does he make those same plays? I'm not sure he does. He's a read and react defender, there's no instincts there. Very much an anti-Reggie Ragland.
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KingBishop


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
I think where we differ is in what we see the problem is. I don't see an issue with instincts like seeing the hole or reading the O-line. I see more of a physical issue in reading the angle and staying disciplined. If it is instincts I'd agree with you.


For me, angles and instincts are pretty much tied together. And if he didn't have great athleticism, does he make those same plays? I'm not sure he does. He's a read and react defender, there's no instincts there. Very much an anti-Reggie Ragland.


And them boys are faster in the league. Need those instincts
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Top 10 Players in the 2017 Draft: (Not in Order)

Jourdan Lewis, Jonathan Allen, Myles Garrett
Corey Davis, David Njoku, OJ Howard, Dalvin Cook
Steven Taylor, Rueben Foster, Derek Barnett

Deforest Buckner is the best player in the 2016 draft class
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
I think where we differ is in what we see the problem is. I don't see an issue with instincts like seeing the hole or reading the O-line. I see more of a physical issue in reading the angle and staying disciplined. If it is instincts I'd agree with you.


For me, angles and instincts are pretty much tied together. And if he didn't have great athleticism, does he make those same plays? I'm not sure he does. He's a read and react defender, there's no instincts there. Very much an anti-Reggie Ragland.


They're not, though.
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KingBishop wrote:
JammerHammer21 wrote:
Jarvis looked like a slug on and off the field.

Off the field? Like when he is grocery shopping, does he block the freezer aisle with his sluggish selection of which hungry man to buy?
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KingBishop


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Opinions on Calvin Munson LB SDSU?
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Jourdan Lewis, Jonathan Allen, Myles Garrett
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Steven Taylor, Rueben Foster, Derek Barnett

Deforest Buckner is the best player in the 2016 draft class
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mse326


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
CWood21 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
I think where we differ is in what we see the problem is. I don't see an issue with instincts like seeing the hole or reading the O-line. I see more of a physical issue in reading the angle and staying disciplined. If it is instincts I'd agree with you.


For me, angles and instincts are pretty much tied together. And if he didn't have great athleticism, does he make those same plays? I'm not sure he does. He's a read and react defender, there's no instincts there. Very much an anti-Reggie Ragland.


They're not, though.


Thank you. I don't even get how they are tied together
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armsteeld


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingBishop wrote:
Opinions on Calvin Munson LB SDSU?


I like him. His best attribute is getting off blocks. He is vey slippery and has a nonstop motor. I like Barrett more due to Steelers needing a pass rusher. Damonte Kazee is a good CB with nice ball skills and good cover guy. I like their defense.
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Chiefer


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
CWood21 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
I think where we differ is in what we see the problem is. I don't see an issue with instincts like seeing the hole or reading the O-line. I see more of a physical issue in reading the angle and staying disciplined. If it is instincts I'd agree with you.


For me, angles and instincts are pretty much tied together. And if he didn't have great athleticism, does he make those same plays? I'm not sure he does. He's a read and react defender, there's no instincts there. Very much an anti-Reggie Ragland.


They're not, though.


Thank you. I don't even get how they are tied together
i would imagine your instincts tell you what angle to tackle a RB, because you can only make these decisions in a split-second.
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KingBishop


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiefer wrote:
mse326 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
CWood21 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
I think where we differ is in what we see the problem is. I don't see an issue with instincts like seeing the hole or reading the O-line. I see more of a physical issue in reading the angle and staying disciplined. If it is instincts I'd agree with you.


For me, angles and instincts are pretty much tied together. And if he didn't have great athleticism, does he make those same plays? I'm not sure he does. He's a read and react defender, there's no instincts there. Very much an anti-Reggie Ragland.


They're not, though.


Thank you. I don't even get how they are tied together
i would imagine your instincts tell you what angle to tackle a RB, because you can only make these decisions in a split-second.


Agreed. To say they have nothing to do with angles is incorrect. When a player reads and diagnoses a play we say he has great instincts. If he didn't take the right angle to that play he wouldn't make the play and thus we wouldn't be saying he has great instincts.
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Top 10 Players in the 2017 Draft: (Not in Order)

Jourdan Lewis, Jonathan Allen, Myles Garrett
Corey Davis, David Njoku, OJ Howard, Dalvin Cook
Steven Taylor, Rueben Foster, Derek Barnett

Deforest Buckner is the best player in the 2016 draft class
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mse326


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingBishop wrote:
Chiefer wrote:
mse326 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
CWood21 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
I think where we differ is in what we see the problem is. I don't see an issue with instincts like seeing the hole or reading the O-line. I see more of a physical issue in reading the angle and staying disciplined. If it is instincts I'd agree with you.


For me, angles and instincts are pretty much tied together. And if he didn't have great athleticism, does he make those same plays? I'm not sure he does. He's a read and react defender, there's no instincts there. Very much an anti-Reggie Ragland.


They're not, though.


Thank you. I don't even get how they are tied together
i would imagine your instincts tell you what angle to tackle a RB, because you can only make these decisions in a split-second.


Agreed. To say they have nothing to do with angles is incorrect. When a player reads and diagnoses a play we say he has great instincts. If he didn't take the right angle to that play he wouldn't make the play and thus we wouldn't be saying he has great instincts.


That doesn't make them equivalent. Instincts is about reading what's happening and knowing where the play is going.

Angles are more physically related or misjudging.

You can have great instincts and terrible angles and great angles but terrible instincts. (or obviously great or both or bad at both).

But saying him taking wrong ankles means bad instincts is just incorrect. The easiest way to know this is that players can be taught proper angles and frequently are. You can't get taught instincts.
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KingBishop


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
KingBishop wrote:
Chiefer wrote:
mse326 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
CWood21 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
I think where we differ is in what we see the problem is. I don't see an issue with instincts like seeing the hole or reading the O-line. I see more of a physical issue in reading the angle and staying disciplined. If it is instincts I'd agree with you.


For me, angles and instincts are pretty much tied together. And if he didn't have great athleticism, does he make those same plays? I'm not sure he does. He's a read and react defender, there's no instincts there. Very much an anti-Reggie Ragland.


They're not, though.


Thank you. I don't even get how they are tied together
i would imagine your instincts tell you what angle to tackle a RB, because you can only make these decisions in a split-second.


Agreed. To say they have nothing to do with angles is incorrect. When a player reads and diagnoses a play we say he has great instincts. If he didn't take the right angle to that play he wouldn't make the play and thus we wouldn't be saying he has great instincts.


That doesn't make them equivalent. Instincts is about reading what's happening and knowing where the play is going.

Angles are more physically related or misjudging.

You can have great instincts and terrible angles and great angles but terrible instincts. (or obviously great or both or bad at both).

But saying him taking wrong ankles means bad instincts is just incorrect. The easiest way to know this is that players can be taught proper angles and frequently are. You can't get taught instincts.


I don't see the instincts either way you want to argue it. You take him in the first and be disappointed.
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Top 10 Players in the 2017 Draft: (Not in Order)

Jourdan Lewis, Jonathan Allen, Myles Garrett
Corey Davis, David Njoku, OJ Howard, Dalvin Cook
Steven Taylor, Rueben Foster, Derek Barnett

Deforest Buckner is the best player in the 2016 draft class
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingBishop wrote:
Chiefer wrote:
mse326 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
CWood21 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
I think where we differ is in what we see the problem is. I don't see an issue with instincts like seeing the hole or reading the O-line. I see more of a physical issue in reading the angle and staying disciplined. If it is instincts I'd agree with you.


For me, angles and instincts are pretty much tied together. And if he didn't have great athleticism, does he make those same plays? I'm not sure he does. He's a read and react defender, there's no instincts there. Very much an anti-Reggie Ragland.


They're not, though.


Thank you. I don't even get how they are tied together
i would imagine your instincts tell you what angle to tackle a RB, because you can only make these decisions in a split-second.


Agreed. To say they have nothing to do with angles is incorrect. When a player reads and diagnoses a play we say he has great instincts. If he didn't take the right angle to that play he wouldn't make the play and thus we wouldn't be saying he has great instincts.


That's not really accurate either. Instincts play into angles. But they're not tied together. Instincts are fairly minimal part of angles when compared to film study/football IQ, aggression/self-awareness, scheme/player responsibility, and physicality.

For example, Scooby Wright III is an example of a guy with tremendous instincts who chose to take very aggressive angles to compensate for his athletic attributes. This led to Wright generally making a big play at or behind the LOS or running himself out of the play. It was boom/bust. It had nothing to do with his instincts.

Your instincts affect the angles you choose to take, but they aren't what cause you to take poor angles.
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KingBishop wrote:
JammerHammer21 wrote:
Jarvis looked like a slug on and off the field.

Off the field? Like when he is grocery shopping, does he block the freezer aisle with his sluggish selection of which hungry man to buy?
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KingBishop


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
KingBishop wrote:
Chiefer wrote:
mse326 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
CWood21 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
I think where we differ is in what we see the problem is. I don't see an issue with instincts like seeing the hole or reading the O-line. I see more of a physical issue in reading the angle and staying disciplined. If it is instincts I'd agree with you.


For me, angles and instincts are pretty much tied together. And if he didn't have great athleticism, does he make those same plays? I'm not sure he does. He's a read and react defender, there's no instincts there. Very much an anti-Reggie Ragland.


They're not, though.


Thank you. I don't even get how they are tied together
i would imagine your instincts tell you what angle to tackle a RB, because you can only make these decisions in a split-second.


Agreed. To say they have nothing to do with angles is incorrect. When a player reads and diagnoses a play we say he has great instincts. If he didn't take the right angle to that play he wouldn't make the play and thus we wouldn't be saying he has great instincts.


That's not really accurate either. Instincts play into angles. But they're not tied together. Instincts are fairly minimal part of angles when compared to film study/football IQ, aggression/self-awareness, scheme/player responsibility, and physicality.

For example, Scooby Wright III is an example of a guy with tremendous instincts who chose to take very aggressive angles to compensate for his athletic attributes. This led to Wright generally making a big play at or behind the LOS or running himself out of the play. It was boom/bust. It had nothing to do with his instincts.

Your instincts affect the angles you choose to take, but they aren't what cause you to take poor angles.


Never said they were the sole factor in angles but they play a part. And Cunningham isn't the player everyone wants to make him out to be. He has had tackling issues his whole career and has never fixed them. He isn't powerful and needs to strengthen his base. Is he a draftable player? Yes. But top 15? Get out of here.
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Top 10 Players in the 2017 Draft: (Not in Order)

Jourdan Lewis, Jonathan Allen, Myles Garrett
Corey Davis, David Njoku, OJ Howard, Dalvin Cook
Steven Taylor, Rueben Foster, Derek Barnett

Deforest Buckner is the best player in the 2016 draft class
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KingBishop


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So even worse is Cunningham takes bad angles but it's not because of athleticism. He is athletic for a LBer. So what can we attribute to his poor angles? If you call Cunningham's bad angles due to film study I call Bs. And if you call it based on lack of awareness... Well you can keep him.
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Top 10 Players in the 2017 Draft: (Not in Order)

Jourdan Lewis, Jonathan Allen, Myles Garrett
Corey Davis, David Njoku, OJ Howard, Dalvin Cook
Steven Taylor, Rueben Foster, Derek Barnett

Deforest Buckner is the best player in the 2016 draft class
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