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NorthCountryEvo


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that combine drills make or break a players ranking, but I think they have confirmed my thought that Bolles is the best OT in this class. Maybe his age reduces his longevity, but I think he will start quickly and be great for a long time.
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The LBC


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
The LBC wrote:
gopherwrestler wrote:
Techbert wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Techbert wrote:
I was disappointed in his drill work. Not bad, but not up to the hype. Tighter hips than I hoped. Looked down more than he should. Above numbers are not bad for a center either, but not hype-worthy.

He may move down my board, but didn't get kicked off. I'm going to go back and look at his tape again.
This is a thing people look for at the combine?

He will never be asked to run around little orange cones ever again so you probably won't have to worry about that Laughing


Interior OL do not need peripheral vision and field awareness?


Well ya but are they going to be looking for a cone? A person is a little bigger than a cone.

Realistically, a bright orange cone stands out more in peripheral vision than a protruding leg or foot. Just saying. It's a legitimate ding. Also, you want the pulling OL's head up because you want him looking for and identifying any linebackers adjusting to the play or moving to try to get at the ball carrier. Hard to do that when you're looking down.
He wouldn't be looking down because the defenders wouldn't be on the ground like a little orange cone. His head and eyes would be up looking for defenders he's attempting to block. His head and eyes would not be looking down on the ground looking for little orange cones. It's a ridiculous criticism. Go watch his damn tape and you can see he's great at pulling. Or you can choose to read into him doing a drill at the combine and decide that he's not good at pulling because he was following directions. Your choice.

I've watched his tape. I've also listened to the now retired OL who provide insight on the drill and the purpose of the cone - Saturday actually broke it down on NFLN quite well and Geoff Schwartz did so in written form as well. The cone is there to try and distract the guy going through the drill as much as it is to set a specific distance they're supposed to round for the pull. It's to see if they actually open up their hips and don't take excess steps. It's also to see if they're that concerned about "getting around that cone" that they lower their head.

It's the same thing as when they're being run through the same movement in space, "on coach" drill that's primarily used for linebackers and defensive backs, where Saturday made it particularly clear that the players would be viewed more highly by the scouts if they treated it less like a speed competition (because they weren't being timed in the drill) and instead made sure to execute their technique as cleanly as possible, even if it meant slowing down a little to do so.

Unfortunately, ever since the most recent CBA's cut the amount of contact practices, thus reducing the amount of reps (which are the most important thing for OL in their development and maintenance), OL are no longer the "safe picks" they once were. And teams are going to try to filter out those with bad habits (the ones that aren't as easy to coach out of a guy) as possible, because they're simply not going to have the practice reps needed to coach it out of them.
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The LBC


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NorthCountryEvo wrote:
Not that combine drills make or break a players ranking, but I think they have confirmed my thought that Bolles is the best OT in this class. Maybe his age reduces his longevity, but I think he will start quickly and be great for a long time.

I've always found this criticism of him to be way overblown. OL habitually play into their mid-to-late 30's unless they suffer some sort of recurring injury that is specifically debilitating for "big men" (foot and back being the major ones). Moreover, Bolles, while older, has roughly the same amount of mileage on his body that most of his peers in this class do (he's older because he went on a mission; he wasn't exactly putting a ton of wear and tear on his body during that mission). If he pans out, a team is still going to be able to reasonably get 10 years out of him - which is more than 3x the average player's career.
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NorthCountryEvo


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LBC wrote:
NorthCountryEvo wrote:
Not that combine drills make or break a players ranking, but I think they have confirmed my thought that Bolles is the best OT in this class. Maybe his age reduces his longevity, but I think he will start quickly and be great for a long time.

I've always found this criticism of him to be way overblown. OL habitually play into their mid-to-late 30's unless they suffer some sort of recurring injury that is specifically debilitating for "big men" (foot and back being the major ones). Moreover, Bolles, while older, has roughly the same amount of mileage on his body that most of his peers in this class do (he's older because he went on a mission; he wasn't exactly putting a ton of wear and tear on his body during that mission). If he pans out, a team is still going to be able to reasonably get 10 years out of him - which is more than 3x the average player's career.


My thoughts exactly, and his age doesn't bother me at all. If you can get 8-10 years out of him, which I feel is reasonable, then he is a solid investment.
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LBC wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
The LBC wrote:
gopherwrestler wrote:
Techbert wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Techbert wrote:
I was disappointed in his drill work. Not bad, but not up to the hype. Tighter hips than I hoped. Looked down more than he should. Above numbers are not bad for a center either, but not hype-worthy.

He may move down my board, but didn't get kicked off. I'm going to go back and look at his tape again.
This is a thing people look for at the combine?

He will never be asked to run around little orange cones ever again so you probably won't have to worry about that Laughing


Interior OL do not need peripheral vision and field awareness?


Well ya but are they going to be looking for a cone? A person is a little bigger than a cone.

Realistically, a bright orange cone stands out more in peripheral vision than a protruding leg or foot. Just saying. It's a legitimate ding. Also, you want the pulling OL's head up because you want him looking for and identifying any linebackers adjusting to the play or moving to try to get at the ball carrier. Hard to do that when you're looking down.
He wouldn't be looking down because the defenders wouldn't be on the ground like a little orange cone. His head and eyes would be up looking for defenders he's attempting to block. His head and eyes would not be looking down on the ground looking for little orange cones. It's a ridiculous criticism. Go watch his damn tape and you can see he's great at pulling. Or you can choose to read into him doing a drill at the combine and decide that he's not good at pulling because he was following directions. Your choice.

I've watched his tape. I've also listened to the now retired OL who provide insight on the drill and the purpose of the cone - Saturday actually broke it down on NFLN quite well and Geoff Schwartz did so in written form as well. The cone is there to try and distract the guy going through the drill as much as it is to set a specific distance they're supposed to round for the pull. It's to see if they actually open up their hips and don't take excess steps. It's also to see if they're that concerned about "getting around that cone" that they lower their head.

It's the same thing as when they're being run through the same movement in space, "on coach" drill that's primarily used for linebackers and defensive backs, where Saturday made it particularly clear that the players would be viewed more highly by the scouts if they treated it less like a speed competition (because they weren't being timed in the drill) and instead made sure to execute their technique as cleanly as possible, even if it meant slowing down a little to do so.

Unfortunately, ever since the most recent CBA's cut the amount of contact practices, thus reducing the amount of reps (which are the most important thing for OL in their development and maintenance), OL are no longer the "safe picks" they once were. And teams are going to try to filter out those with bad habits (the ones that aren't as easy to coach out of a guy) as possible, because they're simply not going to have the practice reps needed to coach it out of them.
It still doesn't translate at all to what they do on the field. The cone isn't there to see if he won't be looking down the field on a pull (because nobody really does that). The coaches place the cone wide to prevent the players from skip pulling because that won't really show them anything. The coaches just want to see them open and run. Most of the players don't even use a real pull technique. Go back and watch other guys from years past and you will see first round picks looking down and just running though the drill. Look at Ronnie Stanley in the drill last year if you want an example. This is all just meaningless crap that's being blown up into something it isn't.
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Techbert


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MSURacerDT55 wrote:
...

Did you bother to evaluate all of 2015 and 14? If you aren't aware, it should take more than 2 games to form an opinion, your post sounds like you have a personal gripe.

And even if he did have those 2 bad games, it has zero bearing on how his future shakes out.


I don't have any gripe against Elflein. I just made an observation based on what I saw today, and the B1G supporters starting howling, making more of it than intended. I was predisposed to like him.

If you see a trait, you see it. Doesn't matter what he did two years ago. I picked those two games because of pro talent. The main value of old tape is to see where a player improves and where they regress.

I looked at 2015 Michigan and Notre Dame, just for you. Both victories, so it is not just a case of everyone on the team being outmatched, like with Clemson. I also don't care what a player from a big school does in games against the Little Sisters of the Poor.

In both games, OSU looked better when they used straight-ahead power. Elflein was no exception. Elflein played RG both games. He had Zeke run behind him, which was nice.

Vs Michigan - I saw two Elflein blocks on the second level. He probably made a couple more, but virtually all his blocking was initiated right in front of him or behind the LOS. The best results on pulls happened on a couple of traps when Elflein pulled left and Zeke or JT ran right. Elflein looked confused early, but settled down.

Vs ND - OSU manhandled ND in the first half, and let them get back in during the second half. Elflein did not pull a single time in the first half. His play fell off in the second half when asked to pull quite a bit. It really did not benefit the team.

In summary, Elflein played okay to well when playing in a phone booth and played okay to poorly in space. Best when down blocking. It is what it is.
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goldfishwars


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had no idea Nico Siragusa was such a good athlete, because his tape is rock solid. Huge day for him
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like Julie'n Davenport bounced back after the rough 40. His three cone drill and short shuttle times are very impressive for a man his size. They're comparable to Conklin's times from last year and superior to Terron Armstead's times.

How'd he look in drills?
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goldfishwars


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
It seems like Julie'n Davenport bounced back after the rough 40. His three cone drill and short shuttle times are very impressive for a man his size. They're comparable to Conklin's times from last year and superior to Terron Armstead's times.

How'd he look in drills?


Really solid I thought, nothing special - but moved better than supposedly more polished prospects. Lots to work with here
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Duffman57


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
It seems like Julie'n Davenport bounced back after the rough 40. His three cone drill and short shuttle times are very impressive for a man his size. They're comparable to Conklin's times from last year and superior to Terron Armstead's times.

How'd he look in drills?


He looked awful running the 40, but i'm in the "who cares" group when it comes to that. Lateral agility and hip fluidity are much more important as a OT, and I think he showed both of those pretty well.
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MSURacerDT55


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
MSURacerDT55 wrote:
Techbert wrote:
Jlash wrote:
This is a case where you just look back and OSU games and see if Elflein had trouble pulling. Simple as that. No sense arguing him looking down at an orange cone.


I did. I looked at Michigan and Clemson. I did not see good vision.

He had some good plays and some good pulls against Michigan, and I saw some bad ones. He did not pick up blitzers in his peripheral very well and missed several blocks in space. He gave up multiple sacks, including one where they thought it was a good idea to pull Elflein in pass pro against Taco Charlton. If Barrett did not have good escapability, he would have given up several other sacks due to substandard vision.

Clemson demolished Elflein. OSU pulled Elflein a number of times. Can't say it was effective. Maybe once. I dunno. I do know Clemson's interior beat Elflein like a bongo drum all night.

Sorry to rile up the B1G apologists, but you guys need to do a better job of reading. Yes. Elflein is obviously a hard worker, but I said he was either lacking in vision or prep, one or the other, and it looks like he has trouble with the vision. His good pulls is when he blocks someone directly in his path. His bad pulls he misses completely and keeps going.

How many sacks was he responsible for in those two games? Six? Eight? That's really sad for a center who spends most of the time in routine double teams.


Did you bother to evaluate all of 2015 and 14? If you aren't aware, it should take more than 2 games to form an opinion, your post sounds like you have a personal gripe.

And even if he did have those 2 bad games, it has zero bearing on how his future shakes out.


Yea but those are two games against NFL level talent. If true, I think he's right to be very concerned.


The same can be said about the Alabama game 15' and Oregon 15' when he was punking their DTs especially Buckner
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CalhounLambeau


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NorthCountryEvo wrote:
Not that combine drills make or break a players ranking, but I think they have confirmed my thought that Bolles is the best OT in this class. Maybe his age reduces his longevity, but I think he will start quickly and be great for a long time.

He moves really well. But the guy has the lower body of a tight end. His legs looked really light in tights.
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indigo_rex


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bolles' age comes into play, because he's a 297lb OT, who looked susceptible to the bull rush. If he was 21 or 22, you'd feel better about his chances to add 10-15lbs without losing much mobility. I don't mean to seem like I'm down on him. He's excellent in the run game - one of the best pulling OT's I've seen in a while. And, he should be a late-1st/early-2nd.

I couldn't rank him ahead of Cam Robinson, who has an ideal frame, no issue anchoring against the bull rush, and really just needs to cut out the lapses in concentration.
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're looking for a RT, Moton or Dawkins?
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Techbert


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
If you're looking for a RT, Moton or Dawkins?


Yes. Moton or Dawkins.
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