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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 68412
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldman9er wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
I have a really strong gut feeling that Cooper Kupp is a special player. He's my #1 WR on Day 2 of the draft. Everything I learn about him just continues to reinforce this feeling I've had for over a year now that Kupp is going to be a really good pro WR. I'm not at all discouraged by his underwhelming measurables. Feel free to call me crazy, but that's how I feel.


Over Zay? Confused


Yes. They win in the same sort of ways. Kupp is better at it.
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typecast


Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 85
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeezla wrote:
Kupp is probably my 7th or 8th overall WR. Chad Hansen right there with him.

1 Corey Davis
2 Mike Williams
3 John Ross
4 Zay Jones
5 Taywan Taylor
6 Chris Godwin
7 Cooper Kupp
8 Chad Hansen
9 JuJu
10 Dede Westbrook/Ishmael Zamora

Not a bad year for Caucasian WR's, but I did like Jordy more as a prospect. Now that I think about it, Mike Williams = Jordy. Has that comparison already been made? Am I starting the party or am I late to it?


No Shelton Gibson?
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BleedTheClock


Joined: 17 Nov 2014
Posts: 5320
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

typecast wrote:
Jeezla wrote:
Kupp is probably my 7th or 8th overall WR. Chad Hansen right there with him.

1 Corey Davis
2 Mike Williams
3 John Ross
4 Zay Jones
5 Taywan Taylor
6 Chris Godwin
7 Cooper Kupp
8 Chad Hansen
9 JuJu
10 Dede Westbrook/Ishmael Zamora

Not a bad year for Caucasian WR's, but I did like Jordy more as a prospect. Now that I think about it, Mike Williams = Jordy. Has that comparison already been made? Am I starting the party or am I late to it?


No Shelton Gibson?


Shelton Gibson is nowhere near a top 10 WR in this class.
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Yes, you guys will still win series but jokes on you because lebron going to fail again in the finals for CLE against GS or SA. Cool Sometimes i feel bad for cleveland
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killdawabbit


Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 5929
Location: Somewhere you're not.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeezla wrote:
Kupp is probably my 7th or 8th overall WR. Chad Hansen right there with him.

1 Corey Davis
2 Mike Williams
3 John Ross
4 Zay Jones
5 Taywan Taylor
6 Chris Godwin
7 Cooper Kupp
8 Chad Hansen
9 JuJu
10 Dede Westbrook/Ishmael Zamora

Not a bad year for Caucasian WR's, but I did like Jordy more as a prospect. Now that I think about it, Mike Williams = Jordy. Has that comparison already been made? Am I starting the party or am I late to it?


I would move Kupp, but even more particularly Godwin ahead of Jones and Taylor.
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DraftHobbyist


Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Posts: 349
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeezla wrote:
Kupp is probably my 7th or 8th overall WR. Chad Hansen right there with him.

1 Corey Davis
2 Mike Williams
3 John Ross
4 Zay Jones
5 Taywan Taylor
6 Chris Godwin
7 Cooper Kupp
8 Chad Hansen
9 JuJu
10 Dede Westbrook/Ishmael Zamora

Not a bad year for Caucasian WR's, but I did like Jordy more as a prospect. Now that I think about it, Mike Williams = Jordy. Has that comparison already been made? Am I starting the party or am I late to it?


My highest WR that you didn't list is Noah Brown. I think people really underestimate the importance and specialness of his blocking. I also think people underestimate his potential upside because of the way he can use his body and fight for balls despite lacking athleticism. Darboh and Dupre are also in my Top 10. Smith-Schuster drops way too many balls, so I have him 17th. I have Taywon Taylor 11th so that's not that different, but I have Westbrook 14th. An undersized guy that lacks agility is not even a Day 2 pick to me. I think you're too high on Zay Jones, as I have him 8th, and honestly I think that's on the high side for me. He couldn't carry his team despite getting every opportunity to. He couldn't even help his team keep games close. I think he's a better athlete than football player.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DraftHobbyist wrote:
I think you're too high on Zay Jones, as I have him 8th, and honestly I think that's on the high side for me. He couldn't carry his team despite getting every opportunity to. He couldn't even help his team keep games close. I think he's a better athlete than football player.


How is a WR supposed to carry his team? He put up ridiculous production. This is one of the weirdest criticisms I've seen.

And then calling him a better athlete than football player? What? If it were 2 months ago, people would be calling him a polished football player who is an average athlete. Laughing
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BleedTheClock


Joined: 17 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
DraftHobbyist wrote:
I think you're too high on Zay Jones, as I have him 8th, and honestly I think that's on the high side for me. He couldn't carry his team despite getting every opportunity to. He couldn't even help his team keep games close. I think he's a better athlete than football player.


How is a WR supposed to carry his team? He put up ridiculous production. This is one of the weirdest criticisms I've seen.

And then calling him a better athlete than football player? What? If it were 2 months ago, people would be calling him a polished football player who is an average athlete. Laughing



Yup. Zay Jones is known as a great intermediate route runner with very good hands. My only gripe with him is his inability to create a lot of separation on linear routes. He creates separation on breaks, but won't be a dude that just glides past DB's in the NFL. He's a machine running digs and comeback routes. Not sure why someone would call him a better athlete than football player. That's pretty much the opposite of what he is.

Cooper Kupp is a dude I'm beginning to like more and more. He is just a very good player that finds ways to produce. He gets open at all levels of the field and does not drop the ball. Great body control. My Kupp complaint is his inability to high point effectively. He will win jump balls with ease, but it's not because of his high pointing ability. It's weird...
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Yes, you guys will still win series but jokes on you because lebron going to fail again in the finals for CLE against GS or SA. Cool Sometimes i feel bad for cleveland
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Groink


Joined: 30 Dec 2014
Posts: 474
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DraftHobbyist wrote:

My highest WR that you didn't list is Noah Brown. I think people really underestimate the importance and specialness of his blocking. I also think people underestimate his potential upside because of the way he can use his body and fight for balls despite lacking athleticism. Darboh and Dupre are also in my Top 10. Smith-Schuster drops way too many balls, so I have him 17th. I have Taywon Taylor 11th so that's not that different, but I have Westbrook 14th. An undersized guy that lacks agility is not even a Day 2 pick to me. I think you're too high on Zay Jones, as I have him 8th, and honestly I think that's on the high side for me. He couldn't carry his team despite getting every opportunity to. He couldn't even help his team keep games close. I think he's a better athlete than football player.
In my eyes Brown is someone who is going to have to fight for a roster spot at the back end of a receiving corps. Make a living on special teams to start. Needs a lot of work. And the upside isn't really that high imo, probably a big possession receiver if he develops. But nothing particularly special. But he is young, so he has that going for him.
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buno67


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Groink wrote:
DraftHobbyist wrote:

My highest WR that you didn't list is Noah Brown. I think people really underestimate the importance and specialness of his blocking. I also think people underestimate his potential upside because of the way he can use his body and fight for balls despite lacking athleticism. Darboh and Dupre are also in my Top 10. Smith-Schuster drops way too many balls, so I have him 17th. I have Taywon Taylor 11th so that's not that different, but I have Westbrook 14th. An undersized guy that lacks agility is not even a Day 2 pick to me. I think you're too high on Zay Jones, as I have him 8th, and honestly I think that's on the high side for me. He couldn't carry his team despite getting every opportunity to. He couldn't even help his team keep games close. I think he's a better athlete than football player.
In my eyes Brown is someone who is going to have to fight for a roster spot at the back end of a receiving corps. Make a living on special teams to start. Needs a lot of work. And the upside isn't really that high imo, probably a big possession receiver if he develops. But nothing particularly special. But he is young, so he has that going for him.


With his ability to block a team will be willing to give him a chance to develop as a WR tho. That alone should secure him a spot for special teams and some plays a game until they have an idea of what he truly is. His blocking ability and the ability to track the ball and win 50/50 balls are going to get him into camps. Work ethic will make or break him in the NFL
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lark25


Joined: 01 May 2014
Posts: 397
Location: Aus
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kupp's explosion numbers aren't good but his quickness and agility scores are very good. I prefer both, but if anything it seems quickness is more important than Sparq beast ability at WR.

A 6.75s 3 cone at the combine is great, but the 6.53 at the pro day is insane. Even allowing a 0.07s pro day modifier it's a 6.6s 3 cone. 4.1s 20yd shuttle and 11.28s 60yd are also good numbers.

I don't like the 4.6s 40 he ran, but it was at the combine and he ran a 4.55 at his pro day. Some draftable guys run mid 4.6s at their pro day, so it's not a concern as he rarely wins solely off straight line speed.

Taywan Taylor also has great quickness, with a 6.57s 3 cone along with good explosion numbers. Another guy that's not a burner but is very quick
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Jeezla


Joined: 03 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lark25 wrote:
Kupp's explosion numbers aren't good but his quickness and agility scores are very good. I prefer both, but if anything it seems quickness is more important than Sparq beast ability at WR.

A 6.75s 3 cone at the combine is great, but the 6.53 at the pro day is insane. Even allowing a 0.07s pro day modifier it's a 6.6s 3 cone. 4.1s 20yd shuttle and 11.28s 60yd are also good numbers.

I don't like the 4.6s 40 he ran, but it was at the combine and he ran a 4.55 at his pro day. Some draftable guys run mid 4.6s at their pro day, so it's not a concern as he rarely wins solely off straight line speed.

Taywan Taylor also has great quickness, with a 6.57s 3 cone along with good explosion numbers. Another guy that's not a burner but is very quick


It looks like Taylor is a burner on film though. I thought he would run around 4.39. Maybe he just has bad technique out of the block, because he was running past Humphrey in the Bama game.
I wish they would start showing MPH for everyone when they run.
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Jeezla


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, Zay Jones = Jordan Matthews with better hands. If Jordan Matthews had Zay Jones' hands he would be a consistent 1000-1100 yard WR, and I think that's what Zay should end up being.
Chris Godwin is basically a smaller, less nuanced Allen Robinson.
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Fureys49ers


Joined: 31 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't k ow if it's been said or not but I liken Brown's game a lot to that of Sanu's, or that's what his upside looks like to me.

I'm a big fan of the "second tier" WRs, being Jones, Kupp, Smith-Schuster, Godwin, Taylor. Maybe none of em become super stars but they will all have very solid careers. They each win in different ways obviously but future WR 2's and 3's.

Hansen might be favorite WR in this draft, some of the catches he makes are incredible, his body control is out of this world, has good hands, quickness in and out of breaks, sets up routes well and has a good feel for the nuances required from NFL WRs. Not that physically imposing but plays with great urgency, awareness and competitiveness.
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DraftHobbyist


Joined: 17 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
DraftHobbyist wrote:
I think you're too high on Zay Jones, as I have him 8th, and honestly I think that's on the high side for me. He couldn't carry his team despite getting every opportunity to. He couldn't even help his team keep games close. I think he's a better athlete than football player.


How is a WR supposed to carry his team? He put up ridiculous production. This is one of the weirdest criticisms I've seen.

And then calling him a better athlete than football player? What? If it were 2 months ago, people would be calling him a polished football player who is an average athlete. Laughing


Maybe other people would be calling him a polished football player who is an average athlete, but not me.

He put up ridiculous production because the entire Offense was built for him to get production and carry the Offense. You can actually find signs of this if you look for it in his production, and it shows up clearly on tape if you go back and look for it. He was forced the ball, which is why he ended up with 158 receptions (most in the FBS with 2nd being 136 receptions). In addition to being #1 in catches by quite a bit, he was #2 in total yards. His 11.05 average doesn't even come close to sniffing the Top 100, which has the 100th player at 15.57. His 8 TD's was only good enough to be tied for 47th-67th. Of course his receptions/game is through the roof, clearly #1 at 13.2 while #2 was 9.7 receptions/game. That's because a lot of this production is fabricated, and a lot of it is short stuff where he gets tackled quickly. His 8 TD's show that he doesn't really get in the endzone all that often (although this is more of a mild criticism). Yards/game also comes from the Offense fabricated production for him, putting him at 145.5.

If you go to past seasons, at first glance it may look like he grew, but my argument is that his jump in production each year is actually more of a sign of him being forced the ball. He had 62 receptions for 604 receiving yards and 5 receiving TD's as a Freshman. He then had 81 receptions for 830 receiving yards and 5 receiving TD's as a Sophomore. Slight growth in yards, but not TD's. Then you jump to 98 receptions for 1099 receiving yards and still only 5 receiving TD's as a Junior. Slightly more yards, but a lack of growth in TD's again. Then he jumps to 1746 receiving yards and 8 TD's. A massive jump in receiving yards and a few extra TD's, but still not great for TD's. This massive jump but relatively small jump in TD's tell me this is very fabricated. And if you look at the average each year, it was always low. It goes from 9.74 to 10.25 to 11.21 to 11.05.

I remember when a lot of people loved Jace Amaro at TE and it was the same thing. There were a lot of TE screens for him and he'd catch the easy pass and get the yards there from the blocking. My understanding is that he has not been very good in the NFL, and while he has less production than Zay Jones, he shows some of the same signs. In his biggest season where he had 106 receptions and 1352 receiving yards, he had an average of 12.75.

But we can go further on Jones statistically to see this manufactured production by looking at the game log. I told you the 100th receiver had an average of 15.57 in 2016. Jones literally only breaks that mark 3 times (18.00, 15.85, and 17.67) in 2016. His lowest game was 6.27, and that's on 11 catches. There are 6 games where he is in single digits. In fact, the amount of times he broke 15.57 average throughout his entire career was exactly 4 times. The amount of times he was in single digits throughout his career, assuming I counted correctly because I may have miscounted since there were so many, was 24 times (not including games of no receptions).

If you go back and re-watch Zay Jones looking for what I'm explaining, I'm confident you'll see it. Maybe not, because sometimes people just see things differently, but I think you will. There is plenty about Zay that is raw (rounds routes, plays weak, drops balls, etc.). His Combine times are solid and I actually have in my notes from the film that he is has some athletic traits such as quickness, but I think he mitigates the benefits of some of his traits such as his ability to change direction by doing things like rounding routes. Yes, he can learn some of these things, but he has a decent amount to learn, and some of it isn't learnable IMO. I don't think he's that great in the open field to be honest.

BleedTheClock wrote:
Yup. Zay Jones is known as a great intermediate route runner with very good hands. My only gripe with him is his inability to create a lot of separation on linear routes. He creates separation on breaks, but won't be a dude that just glides past DB's in the NFL. He's a machine running digs and comeback routes. Not sure why someone would call him a better athlete than football player. That's pretty much the opposite of what he is.


Multiple people are saying that Zay Jones is a better player than an athlete. I don't really get where this is coming from. He is in the 94.1% at his position in SPARQ. Zay Jones is a very good athlete. In fact, he's literally the 4th most athletic WR in this class according to SPARQ out of 285 ranked WR's, and he'd beat most if not all of the 13 unranked WR's as well. Do I think the Zay Jones film shows him as the 4th best WR? Not at all. I had him as something like my 14th best WR according to film alone, and few people have his tape as the 4th best WR in this class. But that's where his SPARQ numbers put him. That's why I think he's a better athlete than player, and while I see potential for upside, I see a lot of obstacles keeping him from ever reaching is full potential.
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DraftHobbyist


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lark25 wrote:
Kupp's explosion numbers aren't good but his quickness and agility scores are very good. I prefer both, but if anything it seems quickness is more important than Sparq beast ability at WR.

A 6.75s 3 cone at the combine is great, but the 6.53 at the pro day is insane. Even allowing a 0.07s pro day modifier it's a 6.6s 3 cone. 4.1s 20yd shuttle and 11.28s 60yd are also good numbers.

I don't like the 4.6s 40 he ran, but it was at the combine and he ran a 4.55 at his pro day. Some draftable guys run mid 4.6s at their pro day, so it's not a concern as he rarely wins solely off straight line speed.

Taywan Taylor also has great quickness, with a 6.57s 3 cone along with good explosion numbers. Another guy that's not a burner but is very quick


Laquon Treadwell went in the 1st Round with a 4.64 40. Granted, Treadwell was about 20 lbs heavier, but Treadwell also only had a 4.3 20S and 7.04 3C (and these are all Pro Day numbers). It just shows that teams are willing to overlook a slow 40 in the right circumstances.
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