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48 1/2ers


Joined: 01 Aug 2011
Posts: 3469
Location: Northern California
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I choose not to assume poor route running is associated with work habits just as I choose not to assume lack of muscular build is associated with work habit just as I choose not to assume an inability to field punts is associated with work habits. Sometimes it can be the case that a lack of time/effort put in leads to all those but sometimes all the time/effort in the world still doesnt lead to success in that area it requires more like good coaching, or a QB who communicates well, theres much more to it than just work habits.
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CalhounLambeau


Joined: 05 May 2011
Posts: 11351
Location: WI
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

48 1/2ers wrote:
So he came to LaTech as a RB not knowing how to work then transitioned to WR and had the most productive careers in team history yet doesnt know how to work? I find that hard to believe.

He is four years removed from high school. His positional transition is irrelevant. His production is heavily based on his athleticism and natural talents after the catch with simple routes against below-average competition.

In 2014, the summer going into his second season after his redshirt his positional coach Tim Rattay noted Henderson didn't know how to work or prepare but was getting better and had a really long way to go. Well into his third season of playing he was making egregious mental errors and driving his teammates and coaches crazy in a relatively simple offense. That's alarming no matter how you try to spin it.

My assumption with Henderson is that he's just not going to be able to handle the mental side of the game for a long period of time or maybe never figure it out. I hope I'm wrong. But I haven't seen anything that makes me feel confident about him.
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Chwf3rd25


Joined: 27 Aug 2015
Posts: 268
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CalhounLambeau wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
So he came to LaTech as a RB not knowing how to work then transitioned to WR and had the most productive careers in team history yet doesnt know how to work? I find that hard to believe.

He is four years removed from high school. His positional transition is irrelevant. His production is heavily based on his athleticism and natural talents after the catch with simple routes against below-average competition.

In 2014, the summer going into his second season after his redshirt his positional coach Tim Rattay noted Henderson didn't know how to work or prepare but was getting better and had a really long way to go. Well into his third season of playing he was making egregious mental errors and driving his teammates and coaches crazy in a relatively simple offense. That's alarming no matter how you try to spin it.

My assumption with Henderson is that he's just not going to be able to handle the mental side of the game for a long period of time or maybe never figure it out. I hope I'm wrong. But I haven't seen anything that makes me feel confident about him.


You watch his game against Navy yet? So freaking good. I don't know anything about him off the field but he's one of the most dynamic WRs in this class. He'll immediately step in and be a weapon both on special teams and screen passes with the potential for much more. His YAC ability is ridiculous and IMO establishes a nice floor by itself.
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Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 3027
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: Henderson I get the concern. But price / risk has to factor in too. If he goes in Rd 3 this year given how deep it is talent wise bad choice. If it's Rd 5+ the bust potential of the field makes it more than justifiable.

Do ppl think he is going to go ahead of other slot types like Ryan Switzer? That's the Day 3 tier I had him at. Just curious.
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steelpanther wrote:
This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 67895
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chwf3rd25 wrote:
CalhounLambeau wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
So he came to LaTech as a RB not knowing how to work then transitioned to WR and had the most productive careers in team history yet doesnt know how to work? I find that hard to believe.

He is four years removed from high school. His positional transition is irrelevant. His production is heavily based on his athleticism and natural talents after the catch with simple routes against below-average competition.

In 2014, the summer going into his second season after his redshirt his positional coach Tim Rattay noted Henderson didn't know how to work or prepare but was getting better and had a really long way to go. Well into his third season of playing he was making egregious mental errors and driving his teammates and coaches crazy in a relatively simple offense. That's alarming no matter how you try to spin it.

My assumption with Henderson is that he's just not going to be able to handle the mental side of the game for a long period of time or maybe never figure it out. I hope I'm wrong. But I haven't seen anything that makes me feel confident about him.


You watch his game against Navy yet? So freaking good. I don't know anything about him off the field but he's one of the most dynamic WRs in this class. He'll immediately step in and be a weapon both on special teams and screen passes with the potential for much more. His YAC ability is ridiculous and IMO establishes a nice floor by itself.


Does it? Is he any more talented than Cordarrelle Patterson or Tavon Austin in that regard?
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Chwf3rd25


Joined: 27 Aug 2015
Posts: 268
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Chwf3rd25 wrote:
CalhounLambeau wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
So he came to LaTech as a RB not knowing how to work then transitioned to WR and had the most productive careers in team history yet doesnt know how to work? I find that hard to believe.

He is four years removed from high school. His positional transition is irrelevant. His production is heavily based on his athleticism and natural talents after the catch with simple routes against below-average competition.

In 2014, the summer going into his second season after his redshirt his positional coach Tim Rattay noted Henderson didn't know how to work or prepare but was getting better and had a really long way to go. Well into his third season of playing he was making egregious mental errors and driving his teammates and coaches crazy in a relatively simple offense. That's alarming no matter how you try to spin it.

My assumption with Henderson is that he's just not going to be able to handle the mental side of the game for a long period of time or maybe never figure it out. I hope I'm wrong. But I haven't seen anything that makes me feel confident about him.


You watch his game against Navy yet? So freaking good. I don't know anything about him off the field but he's one of the most dynamic WRs in this class. He'll immediately step in and be a weapon both on special teams and screen passes with the potential for much more. His YAC ability is ridiculous and IMO establishes a nice floor by itself.


Does it? Is he any more talented than Cordarrelle Patterson or Tavon Austin in that regard?


I think so. Neither Patterson nor Austin are great WRs but they've both established roles in the league to the point where Patterson is a pro bowl returner ever year and the Rams gave Austin $17 million guarenteed (obviously a bad contract but it still establishes that he has value in the league). I consider that a pretty good floor and he still has the potential to be a lot more than those two.
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 67895
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chwf3rd25 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Chwf3rd25 wrote:
CalhounLambeau wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
So he came to LaTech as a RB not knowing how to work then transitioned to WR and had the most productive careers in team history yet doesnt know how to work? I find that hard to believe.

He is four years removed from high school. His positional transition is irrelevant. His production is heavily based on his athleticism and natural talents after the catch with simple routes against below-average competition.

In 2014, the summer going into his second season after his redshirt his positional coach Tim Rattay noted Henderson didn't know how to work or prepare but was getting better and had a really long way to go. Well into his third season of playing he was making egregious mental errors and driving his teammates and coaches crazy in a relatively simple offense. That's alarming no matter how you try to spin it.

My assumption with Henderson is that he's just not going to be able to handle the mental side of the game for a long period of time or maybe never figure it out. I hope I'm wrong. But I haven't seen anything that makes me feel confident about him.


You watch his game against Navy yet? So freaking good. I don't know anything about him off the field but he's one of the most dynamic WRs in this class. He'll immediately step in and be a weapon both on special teams and screen passes with the potential for much more. His YAC ability is ridiculous and IMO establishes a nice floor by itself.


Does it? Is he any more talented than Cordarrelle Patterson or Tavon Austin in that regard?


I think so. Neither Patterson nor Austin are great WRs but they've both established roles in the league to the point where Patterson is a pro bowl returner ever year and the Rams gave Austin $17 million guarenteed (obviously a bad contract but it still establishes that he has value in the league). I consider that a pretty good floor and he still has the potential to be a lot more than those two.


But he's arguably both a lesser athlete and YAC threat than both guys.

It's a nice floor for a fifth round pick but not for a second day pick.
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Chwf3rd25


Joined: 27 Aug 2015
Posts: 268
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Chwf3rd25 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Chwf3rd25 wrote:
CalhounLambeau wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
So he came to LaTech as a RB not knowing how to work then transitioned to WR and had the most productive careers in team history yet doesnt know how to work? I find that hard to believe.

He is four years removed from high school. His positional transition is irrelevant. His production is heavily based on his athleticism and natural talents after the catch with simple routes against below-average competition.

In 2014, the summer going into his second season after his redshirt his positional coach Tim Rattay noted Henderson didn't know how to work or prepare but was getting better and had a really long way to go. Well into his third season of playing he was making egregious mental errors and driving his teammates and coaches crazy in a relatively simple offense. That's alarming no matter how you try to spin it.

My assumption with Henderson is that he's just not going to be able to handle the mental side of the game for a long period of time or maybe never figure it out. I hope I'm wrong. But I haven't seen anything that makes me feel confident about him.


You watch his game against Navy yet? So freaking good. I don't know anything about him off the field but he's one of the most dynamic WRs in this class. He'll immediately step in and be a weapon both on special teams and screen passes with the potential for much more. His YAC ability is ridiculous and IMO establishes a nice floor by itself.


Does it? Is he any more talented than Cordarrelle Patterson or Tavon Austin in that regard?


I think so. Neither Patterson nor Austin are great WRs but they've both established roles in the league to the point where Patterson is a pro bowl returner ever year and the Rams gave Austin $17 million guarenteed (obviously a bad contract but it still establishes that he has value in the league). I consider that a pretty good floor and he still has the potential to be a lot more than those two.


But he's arguably both a lesser athlete and YAC threat than both guys.

It's a nice floor for a fifth round pick but not for a second day pick.



Then I guess we just plainly disagree on his YAC abilities and his potential as a WR.
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 67895
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chwf3rd25 wrote:
Then I guess we just plainly disagree on his YAC abilities and his potential as a WR.


He played against a low level of competition. As I recall, Patterson forced something like 18 missed tackles on 9 catches for 219 yards and a TD in college against Troy. That's the sort of competition that Henderson faced week in and week out.

His YAC skills are incredible, but I have major questions about the rest of his game. On Day 3, I'd strongly consider him if I needed his skill-set. I wouldn't take him on Day 2 knowing what I do.

Here's a video of Patterson vs. Troy for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXVrzulQCis

I don't begrudge people for liking Henderson. He's a flashy player with some really nice attributes, but I see some gaping holes in his game. He's a bad route runner who tips his routes. He has a nasty habit of blowing reads and running the wrong routes. His cuts as a route runner are not crisp, which makes me question whether his change of direction skills as a runner translate to that part of his game.
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 67895
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a really strong gut feeling that Cooper Kupp is a special player. He's my #1 WR on Day 2 of the draft. Everything I learn about him just continues to reinforce this feeling I've had for over a year now that Kupp is going to be a really good pro WR. I'm not at all discouraged by his underwhelming measurables. Feel free to call me crazy, but that's how I feel.
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CalhounLambeau


Joined: 05 May 2011
Posts: 11351
Location: WI
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Chwf3rd25 wrote:
Then I guess we just plainly disagree on his YAC abilities and his potential as a WR.


He played against a low level of competition. As I recall, Patterson forced something like 18 missed tackles on 9 catches for 219 yards and a TD in college against Troy. That's the sort of competition that Henderson faced week in and week out.

His YAC skills are incredible, but I have major questions about the rest of his game. On Day 3, I'd strongly consider him if I needed his skill-set. I wouldn't take him on Day 2 knowing what I do.

Here's a video of Patterson vs. Troy for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXVrzulQCis

I don't begrudge people for liking Henderson. He's a flashy player with some really nice attributes, but I see some gaping holes in his game. He's a bad route runner who tips his routes. He has a nasty habit of blowing reads and running the wrong routes. His cuts as a route runner are not crisp, which makes me question whether his change of direction skills as a runner translate to that part of his game.

Amen, jrry. I could be wrong - obviously - but I think Henderson is going to fool a lot of smart people.
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Chrissooner49er


Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 5046
Location: Tulsa, OK
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
I have a really strong gut feeling that Cooper Kupp is a special player. He's my #1 WR on Day 2 of the draft. Everything I learn about him just continues to reinforce this feeling I've had for over a year now that Kupp is going to be a really good pro WR. I'm not at all discouraged by his underwhelming measurables. Feel free to call me crazy, but that's how I feel.


I have to chime in and second this. There are many better athletes, but none with better technique.
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fa·nat·ic (f-ntk)
A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause. Draftday1:Garrett/Thomas,tradedown:McCaffrey,Cunningham,Watt 2-Bolles,Engram,Kupp,Mixon,Westbrook 3-Switzer,Godwin,Perine,Jordan Evans
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 67895
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrissooner49er wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
I have a really strong gut feeling that Cooper Kupp is a special player. He's my #1 WR on Day 2 of the draft. Everything I learn about him just continues to reinforce this feeling I've had for over a year now that Kupp is going to be a really good pro WR. I'm not at all discouraged by his underwhelming measurables. Feel free to call me crazy, but that's how I feel.


I have to chime in and second this. There are many better athletes, but none with better technique.


Agreed. Everything I read about him screams future star, and when you hear him talk, he doesn't just say the right things. It goes a step further than that. He says things that show the sort of work he puts into his game (things that show his football IQ, overall intelligence, and ability to think analytically).
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oldman9er


Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 43353
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
I have a really strong gut feeling that Cooper Kupp is a special player. He's my #1 WR on Day 2 of the draft. Everything I learn about him just continues to reinforce this feeling I've had for over a year now that Kupp is going to be a really good pro WR. I'm not at all discouraged by his underwhelming measurables. Feel free to call me crazy, but that's how I feel.


Over Zay? Confused
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Jeezla


Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 18961
Location: 805
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kupp is probably my 7th or 8th overall WR. Chad Hansen right there with him.

1 Corey Davis
2 Mike Williams
3 John Ross
4 Zay Jones
5 Taywan Taylor
6 Chris Godwin
7 Cooper Kupp
8 Chad Hansen
9 JuJu
10 Dede Westbrook/Ishmael Zamora

Not a bad year for Caucasian WR's, but I did like Jordy more as a prospect. Now that I think about it, Mike Williams = Jordy. Has that comparison already been made? Am I starting the party or am I late to it?
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Last edited by Jeezla on Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
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